I seriously doubt whether either is going to stand closer inspection, but I'm not optimistic about a productive conversation so I'll leave it to others to reach their own judgements.
@SionIV Just so you know, and before this false assumption spreads even more than it already has in the last decade, SI:Abjuration has never granted immunity to spell removals such as Spell Thrust, Secret Word, Pierce Magic and so on. It did only within Improved Anvil, and an old version of Spell Revisions (I had to give up about it for compatibility sake with other things such as SCS).
The main reason SCS uses SI:Abj is because it grants immunity to Dispel and Breach (I don't remember right now if SI worked against Breach in a vanilla game though, SCS might have tweaked it). EDIT: just checked, on a vanilla install SI:Abj does not protect from Breach because the latter's sec type is set to 'Magic Attack'.
Regarding the new version of SR removing Spell Immunity: it's only half of the story. Yes we have planned it for various reasons (most of them are mentioned by @ZanathKariashi in his first post here), but we are also doing it because other spells will fill the various roles of SI's sub spells: - V4 Non-detection should be able to act as a more balanced SI:Divination - V4 Spell Shield can replace SI:Abjuration (adding immunity to dispel, which is almost the only thing SI:Abj currently does) - SR's True Seeing already grants immunity to "offensive" illusions such as Spook and Shadow Door - SR's Protection from Energy (and lesser versions) can easily perform as SI:Evocation and pretty much as SI:Conj too - a new spell, Mind Blank, will fill the role of SI:Enchantment
@velehal the upcoming new version of SR will make Non-detection work as it is supposed to do within PnP. The long story can be found in the forums (within the planned changes topic), but the short explanation is the following: a creature protected by Non-detection is allowed a save when "attacked" by a divination spell, if successful the divination spell fails. True Seeing and similar spells won't automatically destroy Non-detection anymore.
I'm a Sorcerer fanboy though, so splitting up a spell that had so many different neat utility options into something that's going to cost me a plethora of spell picks makes me want to cry a bit on the inside.
I don't really see a problem with that aspect....given how few spells are actually worth using, making it more difficult to choose spell picks will actually add that missing disadvantage to being a sorcerer, small spell catalog but flexibility and more capacity, or broad spell access but not very flexible and lower capacity (or similar capacity but loses a school of spells).
At current, the only reason not to be sorcerer is so you can dual/multi class (or you're VERY new and don't know what all the spell terminology and stuff means and thus lack a rough idea of what spells will be good picks for the long term).
They're utterly superior to mages in every way otherwise. Only the wild mage can rival them, and it is lacking in consistency, without exploits. (Of course a good chunk of the Sorcerer's most popular tactics also rely on exploits, but it does perform just fine without them).
@velehal the upcoming new version of SR will make Non-detection work as it is supposed to do within PnP. The long story can be found in the forums (within the planned changes topic), but the short explanation is the following: a creature protected by Non-detection is allowed a save when "attacked" by a divination spell, if successful the divination spell fails. True Seeing and similar spells won't automatically destroy Non-detection anymore.
How is that going to work given the fact that true seeing is checked every round? Will a creature protected by non-detection need to make a save every round to remain invisible?
And while we are on the subject, is there a way to make true seeing permanent rather than a once/round check? I hate that rogues can quaff an invis potion and then immediately backstab in-between rounds to avoid true sight. Proper true sight should avoid that happening.
At current, the only reason not to be sorcerer is so you can dual/multi class (or you're VERY new and don't know what all the spell terminology and stuff means and thus lack a rough idea of what spells will be good picks for the long term).
I dunno, I still quite like mages for the potential flexibility they offer. Sure most of the time the sorceror is better, but just occasionally I find myself wanting/needing to try an alternative tactic for a fight which requires an unusual spell. The mage can provide this spell, but the sorceror can't.
At current, the only reason not to be sorcerer is so you can dual/multi class (or you're VERY new and don't know what all the spell terminology and stuff means and thus lack a rough idea of what spells will be good picks for the long term).
I dunno, I still quite like mages for the potential flexibility they offer. Sure most of the time the sorceror is better, but just occasionally I find myself wanting/needing to try an alternative tactic for a fight which requires an unusual spell. The mage can provide this spell, but the sorceror can't.
Which is why I like having at least one secondary caster when I play with a sorcerer, to fill the blanks my sorcerer will be lacking.
How is that going to work given the fact that true seeing is checked every round? Will a creature protected by non-detection need to make a save every round to remain invisible?
Yes, but a relatively easy save to make. Also note that True Seeing is not going to completely dispel Improved Invisibility anymore. It will only make the II opponents partially visible. The caster of TS will be able to cast spells against II targets as if they were fully visible, and not suffer -4 thac0 penalty while attacking them, but party members still suffer both hindrances when targeting those "semi invisible" opponents.
And while we are on the subject, is there a way to make true seeing permanent rather than a once/round check? I hate that rogues can quaff an invis potion and then immediately backstab in-between rounds to avoid true sight. Proper true sight should avoid that happening.
It could be doable, but I'm not sure it will be implemented for technical reasons. For example Spell Revisions Glitterdust makes affected targets unable to become invisible for 4 rounds, but the authors of the best AI mods (DavidW and aVENGER) told me tweaks like this don't play well with AI scripts.
That being said, you may simply assume the invisible target simply slipped for a few seconds away from your sight and you need to look around a bit to make him visible again. TS is not supposed to give you eyes behind your head, in theory you should be able to see invisible targets only in front of you.
Comments
The main reason SCS uses SI:Abj is because it grants immunity to Dispel and Breach (I don't remember right now if SI worked against Breach in a vanilla game though, SCS might have tweaked it). EDIT: just checked, on a vanilla install SI:Abj does not protect from Breach because the latter's sec type is set to 'Magic Attack'.
Regarding the new version of SR removing Spell Immunity: it's only half of the story. Yes we have planned it for various reasons (most of them are mentioned by @ZanathKariashi in his first post here), but we are also doing it because other spells will fill the various roles of SI's sub spells:
- V4 Non-detection should be able to act as a more balanced SI:Divination
- V4 Spell Shield can replace SI:Abjuration (adding immunity to dispel, which is almost the only thing SI:Abj currently does)
- SR's True Seeing already grants immunity to "offensive" illusions such as Spook and Shadow Door
- SR's Protection from Energy (and lesser versions) can easily perform as SI:Evocation and pretty much as SI:Conj too
- a new spell, Mind Blank, will fill the role of SI:Enchantment
@velehal the upcoming new version of SR will make Non-detection work as it is supposed to do within PnP. The long story can be found in the forums (within the planned changes topic), but the short explanation is the following: a creature protected by Non-detection is allowed a save when "attacked" by a divination spell, if successful the divination spell fails. True Seeing and similar spells won't automatically destroy Non-detection anymore.
@wampa if you are curious about Spell Revisions the mod's forum is here: http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showforum=153
I'm a Sorcerer fanboy though, so splitting up a spell that had so many different neat utility options into something that's going to cost me a plethora of spell picks makes me want to cry a bit on the inside.
At current, the only reason not to be sorcerer is so you can dual/multi class (or you're VERY new and don't know what all the spell terminology and stuff means and thus lack a rough idea of what spells will be good picks for the long term).
They're utterly superior to mages in every way otherwise. Only the wild mage can rival them, and it is lacking in consistency, without exploits. (Of course a good chunk of the Sorcerer's most popular tactics also rely on exploits, but it does perform just fine without them).
And while we are on the subject, is there a way to make true seeing permanent rather than a once/round check? I hate that rogues can quaff an invis potion and then immediately backstab in-between rounds to avoid true sight. Proper true sight should avoid that happening.
That being said, you may simply assume the invisible target simply slipped for a few seconds away from your sight and you need to look around a bit to make him visible again. TS is not supposed to give you eyes behind your head, in theory you should be able to see invisible targets only in front of you.