Cleric/Mage dual
Kneller
Member Posts: 438
I'm planning another run through the series. I often play straight up mages in this series and really like the wild mage, but I want something added to spice it up and I don't want to multiclass. That's why I'm considering a dual class to a wild mage (using SK). Now, a fighter is out, as I don't plan on using this char for melee combat. Besides, the F/M is so overused. A thief could be interesting, but I'll have Yoshi and Imoen, so that would be redundant. That leaves the cleric.
Keeping in mind that I'll be partying with Imoen, Jah, Khalid, Minsc, and Dynaheir for BG1 and Imoen/Yoshi, Jah, Minsc for BG2, an actual cleric would be handy for BG1, and someone with pure cleric spells wouldn't be bad for BG2 either.
Right now, I'm sorting out when to dual. I want to do it early enough so I'm not waiting until the end of the game to get the cleric class back, but not so early that I'm really not helping my character out much. My first thought was to go until I had a level 7 spell slot. However, that's more than 1.3mxp.
If I still want to max out my mage levels, I have to do it before I hit 125kxp, which is only level 8. This means I'll only have level 4 spells. If I sacrifice a level of mage, I can get away with dualing at level 10. However, I only need level 9 to unlock level 5 spells. Level 10 is twice as much xp as level 9 and it only gets me an extra 4th and 5th level spell and slightly better turning.
So, I'm thinking a level 9 dual is the way to go. It's only 225kxp, and by 500kxp, I'll have my cleric levels back. But, I wouldn't mind a little feedback on this. Is there anything I may have overlooked? Thanks.
Keeping in mind that I'll be partying with Imoen, Jah, Khalid, Minsc, and Dynaheir for BG1 and Imoen/Yoshi, Jah, Minsc for BG2, an actual cleric would be handy for BG1, and someone with pure cleric spells wouldn't be bad for BG2 either.
Right now, I'm sorting out when to dual. I want to do it early enough so I'm not waiting until the end of the game to get the cleric class back, but not so early that I'm really not helping my character out much. My first thought was to go until I had a level 7 spell slot. However, that's more than 1.3mxp.
If I still want to max out my mage levels, I have to do it before I hit 125kxp, which is only level 8. This means I'll only have level 4 spells. If I sacrifice a level of mage, I can get away with dualing at level 10. However, I only need level 9 to unlock level 5 spells. Level 10 is twice as much xp as level 9 and it only gets me an extra 4th and 5th level spell and slightly better turning.
So, I'm thinking a level 9 dual is the way to go. It's only 225kxp, and by 500kxp, I'll have my cleric levels back. But, I wouldn't mind a little feedback on this. Is there anything I may have overlooked? Thanks.
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Comments
It really depends whether or not you are playing ToB afterwards. If so I'd say level 11 is the way to go, otherwise your original idea will probably benefit you the most.
You have to ask yourself exactly which spells you are even going to use however. Are there any level 6 or 7 spells that will benefit your party all that much? Stuff like Chaotic Commands, Death Ward and Remove Fear will be your bread and butter, all of which are 5th level or below.
Also consider with all the permanent wisdom bonuses you can acquire through the series, you can get bonus 4th and 5th level spells anyway.
I have a soft spot for Cleric/Mage multis though, especially gnome C/Illusionists. From his stats Quayle should be one of the worst NPCs in BG1, but he actually holds his own as a secondary caster and gets a prodigious number of spells. You'd be slower to get high-end mage spells as a multi, but you get a heck of a lot of versatility.
"Oh lord, I am not forsaking you, merely abstaining from your reverence while I study as a mage and kill X many monsters to prove my worthiness"
Sounds wrong to me.
I'm not looking to get anything in particular. I just want an interesting twist on the wild mage. The cleric levels will give me some extra spells to supplement what I'll already get with a mage. On the flip side, I'm half-tempted to do a Paladin instead, being single-classed, arguably stronger than a vanilla fighter, but also getting some extra perks. However, I'm thinking the Cleric/Mage is going to be more strategic.
It's true that I can get away with more levels of cleric without really hurting my mage abilities. However, I want to avoid as much of the dual-class gap as possible. Spending 2/3 or more of the game playing catch up is not fun for me.
As for the RP perspective, nothing about D&D cosmology and metaphysics really makes sense if you think about it. This has always been my biggest beef with everything D&D; I've always felt designers half-assed this. Add the nonesense of dual-classing on top of it (I suddenly forget everything I ever learned until I surpass my first class with my second), and it becomes impossible to put it all together.
How I'm looking at it is this. My char is a cleric of Helm. He will have a crisis of faith sometime after his imprisonment by Irenicus. The way he figures it, his faith wasn't enough to protect him from Irenicus, so he'll try to beat him at his own game and learn magic. However, his nature manifests itself in this process, which is how he ends up a wild mage. While he's studying, Helm takes away his powers. This is less a punishment, but more of a consequence of putting something else before his faith. Eventually, the PC will discover that he still needs Helm's help and Helm will decide that since he's still making choices in favor of the protection of others, he will grant the PC his powers back.
I also thought up a nice compromise to remove that annoying aspect of the BG-version of dual-class once and for all.
You never lose your old abilities, you simply suffer a large xp penalty until you surpass your old class. (say 66% to 75% less. You progress more slowly until that point, but you never lose your old abilities so there is no downtime anymore). This also would allow people in BG1 to be more free about their dual-class choices.
In PnP, you simply never gain xp when using old your abilities, until you've surpassed your old class. Giving a large penalty on XP gained for that character, would closely approximate that, and would work FAR better imo then the current version.
I prefer multi class nowadays, less headache, chore and your character is consistent throughout the series. Right from leaving Candlekeep my char can cast both chromatic orb and cure light wounds. I love spells so this suits my tastes and bg1's low level environment well.
Having Doom and Greater Malison in the same sequencer (along with something else) can be good e.g. Spook for -12 to saves or Chromatic Orb for no net save modifier. Three * Holy Smite can deal a lot of damage and while not as damaging as Skull Trap, can potentially be party friendly. Having Animate Dead as a level 3 spell (rather than 5) and True Seeing/Sight at 5 (rather than 6) is also very useful.
2.) You got some great party buffs including haste on the arcane side, but the most 'powerful' and 'useful' buffs are on the divine side. Death ward, chaotic command etc.
3.) There are many spells that they share, so instead of spending level 5 mage slots on Animate dead then you'll use your level 3 cleric slots instead, which you'll have many more of and it's the same spell. Same goes with true sight and some elemental protection spells.
4.) Lore is actually a very nice skill to have high in this game, you'll be able to identify most items just by looking at them. When you're playing a cleric/mage you should hopefully have a very high wisdom and intellect, the two attributes that can increase your lore. So a C/M should have the second highest lore in the game, just behind a bard.
5.) The level 9 arcane spell 'Wish' is very powerful but it's very dependant on having 18+ in wisdom for the good rewards. If you get to that high levels the C/M is the perfect target to use the spell with.
6.) The most annoying enemies to fight as a mage are undead. Skeletal warriors are immune to magic, and liches can be a real bitch to fight. With your second class a cleric, you gain turn undead and spells that are made to fight undead. So you're patching up that one weakness of the mage.
7.) You can use full plate if you want, it's always nice to have this option even if you don't always take it.
8.) You'll be able to use a shield, and you'll be able to improve your AC by alot from having shields. Not to mention large shields also gives you an additional +1 AC to missile, one of the things mages are weak against early game. And when you hit SoA you can get +5 AC from having a shield.
9.) Shield + sling
Dualling means you won't have a high turn undead. It should also limit the caster level of divine spells, making animate dead and various others either less powerful of of lower duration.
My main issue with the cleric->mage dual is that you're gaining utility in the form of more spells, which are still limited to 1 per round. You do gain some casting endurance, but due to low divine caster level some of your spells will be a bit gimped. And the dual is arguably more restricted than the multi because you will miss higher-level spells and HLAs. With a fighter or thief as base class you gain proficiencies and non-spell abilities which differentiate you in other ways.
That said, I still like Cleric/Mage multis for the reason @ryuken87 points out. Slotting Cleric spells into sequencers, triggers, and contingencies opens up some interesting options. I prefer it as a multiclass, though.
@kneller since you are going into SK anyway you could always make a C/Wild Mage multi. You won't 'max' as a mage but you will end up with 6/6/6/6/6/5/4/4/3 spell slots (without items) at the exp cap, with your suggested four-person party you will still level quite fast and it will probably be a more fun character to play overall. Your wild surge rolls will be slightly worse but that's all part of the fun of playing a wild mage!
I'll give you some examples of a ridiculous tactic you can pull off even with only level 4 spells:
Mage 4th Level spells: Polymorph Self, Stoneskin, Minor Sequencer (load with 2x web)
Mage 2nd Level spells: 2x Web, Mirror Image
Cleric 4th Level spell: Free Action.
Cast Stoneskin, polymorph self, mirror image, and free action before combat. Go into spider form via polymorph, drop your sequencer's 2x web in an enemy group, then go to town with 4 APR, auto-hitting and poisoning the held enemies trapped in the webs that you're immune to. Later, you can combine with Greater Malison for even more lols. If any enemies somehow save against both webs, they still have to get through your stoneskin+mirror image.
You can also go the party-friendly route and use a minor sequencer with the Cleric 1st level spell Doom and second-level Hold Person, then eat them up in spider form, if you want to avoid having to use a 4th level cleric slot on Free Action, though this isn't quite as potent.
Cleric spells have some nice utility - Sanctuary, Hold Person, Holy Smite, Free Action, and Chaotic Commands are some of my favorites. There's also the Draw Upon Holy Might / Holy Power combination, which can be pretty awesome.
I was thinking purely on the grounds of spell selection, but I know what you're saying.
I can't think of any time when I would feel alright dual classing a cleric, because I would always want more spell slots.
If I dual class at level 5, I'd want level 4 spell slots. If I dual class at level 14 I'd want skeleton warriors. If I dual class at level 15, I'd want more spell slots and cleric quest spells. And once I have every cleric quest spell (because I would regret missing even one), it'll take forever to level up mage.
I think I can only handle a multiclass M/C, even though I'd still want more spell slots for both classes. :P
Dualling as a cleric seems tricky though, not sure if the more fleshed out spells per day of the mage part would make it worth the hassle. There's quite a few cleric spells that will scale with higher levels, as will the turn undead ability. But I guess if you're in it mostly for the mage-with-a-twist, I think I would pick level 9 as well. However, if you're a kitted priest (and why wouldn't you be), lvl 10 would give another use of your specials, right? Might be worth considering.
Does alignment play a roll in anything other than your familiar and which archmage robes to wear in BG1? I haven't played BG2 so I am unfamiliar with items or quests.
And finally what proficiencies to take? Sling for range, mace for Stupefier in BG1? I know about the flail of the ages in BG2 so I'll eventually add that. Although I'm guessing I won't be the front liner of any party until much later on in the series.
Sling and Mace look like good BG1 choices. Quarterstaves in BG2. You start to focus more and more on spellcasting, and most of the melee combat you do tends to be either in polymorped or in conjunction with conjured weaponry, so I might skip Flails.
I'm not entirely sure on alignment in BG1. It honestly doesn't have THAT many effects in BG2 - there are some good-only and evil-only items, most of those are for fighter-types, and the best wizard robes aren't alignment-restricted.
And let's not start giving DUHM out to people in this thread. A high level Kensai/thief won't have DUHM and would only get 25 STR if he used Crom Faeyr in his of hand, and then he can't use the staff of the ram.
1.) DUHM (Cleric) 25 STR
2.) Staff of the ram +6
3.) Righteous magic (Max damage on hit)
4.) 7* Backstab multiplier.
You shouldn't be adding bhaalspawn abilities to this discussion, you don't have them when you get to this high level and DUHM is spell only clerics get.
[Edited] : The kensai will deal more damage than the Assassin/Cleric per round, but i'm quite sure the A/C has the bigger backstab damage.
Kai - Righteous Fury
21 STR = Kensai (Tome, Lum, Hell) / Possible to get +1 from deck if you're a fighter when you use it?
25 STR = Cleric (DUHM)
21 STR : 9 damage
22 STR : 10 damage
25 STR : 14 damage
And then it comes down to the bonus damage from the kensai, and the 2* more multiplier from the assassin.