never said anything about stoping to help EVERYONE, just only in cases where it'd have been worth the time( money, magic items ect) and if my rep is up its cause i probably bribed a few temples, so merchants would actually give me a discount rather than charge absurd prices for goods.
That's your justification - Dorn is Neutral Evil. He doesn't care about merchant discounts or the possibility of obtaining magic items (after all, in-game neither your character nor Dorn know in advance that any such items are guaranteed to be found).
and while killing bassilus doesnt give you any rep 5000 gold is nothing to scoff at, its well worth anyones time to put that lunatic down.
The point is that no one will leave if you kill Bassilus, because 5,000 gold is as much a valid justification for Evil characters as the good deed is for Good characters. But returning Joia's ring rather than selling it? That's not profitable.
evil does not equal kill everything in sight regardless of who or what they are, its all about whats best for you, and well if whats best for me helps someone out on occasion good for them i couldnt give a crap, i got what i wanted and or needed
Well, yes. That's Neutral Evil. The thing about Neutral Evil, though, is that every character who subscribes to that philosophy is putting their needs first. Your perspective is that it's about what's best for you, what you get out of it; Dorn's interested in what's best for him, and if you're not acting in a way that directly advances his goals, he has no reason to stay with you.
You do have to manage things very carefully in the first few hours of the game though. Starting out with a Chaotic Evil, you automatically start low rep. add Viconia to your group and hey, presto. You are in danger range. If you so much as kill one innocent and you are potentially in guard range.
In my current play-through, I had to do a few rep enhancing quests pretty quick or I wasn't going to survive. Particularly as I wanted Dorn on my team.
@shawne Why can't he care about merchant discounts? Greed is pretty Neutral Evil. I'm sure Dorn would prefer a full plate sooner rather than later. What else would he want you to do with the money you spent on bribes - give it to him?
As far as I know all Dorn cares about (apart from killing Simmeon) is that you keep the bodies coming, so whether he's slaughtering innocents or evildoers is largely irrelevant as long as he can feed the bloodthirst of his patron. And it's not like he's going to find Simmeon on his own, getting drunk in the Friendly Arm Inn all day every day.
Evil characters don't have to be Evil all the time, and if they willingly join a Good or Neutral party, they've already accepted that they're going to have to make some compromises. Just like a Good character who joins an Evil party realizes they will probably need to be a part of some things they find morally reprehensible for the greater good. In Dorn's case, he needs your help with tracking because he's hopeless at gathering information, so he's willing to put up with your silly "save the world" shenanigans.
I tend to look at the axis as "feared vs cheered". The lower your reputation, the more infamous and feared your party is, hence why evil NPCs prefer this reputation.
Dorn would not want to be known as a gentle giant who helps widows and orpheans; his patron may see it as a sign of weakness. Drow society despises weakness; so does Shar-Teel, hence both she and Viconia don't like the reputation of having a bleeding heart. Edwin and Tiax are power hungry and don't want to be seen as weak either; they want to be feared and admired for their power.
I draw a blank on Eldoth and Kagain tho. Eldoth makes a living from charming and scamming people, so he would absolutely want the reputation of a nice guy. Kagain cares about money, so store prices are very relevant to him, and he chose a business that deals with protecting people (as opposed to a criminal career or something that puts money above lives; he protects lives for money). Frankly, Kagain isn't evil - to me, he's Lawful Neutral. He's no criminal and he doesn't go out of his way to do good, but his profession pretty clearly says he rather doesn't kill commoners. Dead people don't pay him.
I've just noticed that some people seem to be talking about store discounts as a reason for Evil NPCs sticking around. This might be an issue with gameplay/story integration and gamer priorities, but its worth bearing in mind that you get the store discounts *because* you are this well-liked noble person, you don;t become such a person to get store discounts. There is no way for your characters to know that by raising your reputation you will be getting bigger and bigger store discounts, and thus also no way for the Evil NPCs who travel with you to know similarly.
@shawne Why can't he care about merchant discounts? Greed is pretty Neutral Evil. I'm sure Dorn would prefer a full plate sooner rather than later. What else would he want you to do with the money you spent on bribes - give it to him?
That has more to do with Dorn's backstory than his alignment: this is someone who would rather kill someone and take their weapons than buy his own. He has little patience for social norms (as evidenced by the fact that despite having 16 Charisma, he can't sweet-talk a hysterical widow for Kryll's location). As far as Dorn's concerned, you can get that full plate by slitting someone's throat and stealing theirs - why bother with merchants?
Evil characters don't have to be Evil all the time, and if they willingly join a Good or Neutral party, they've already accepted that they're going to have to make some compromises. Just like a Good character who joins an Evil party realizes they will probably need to be a part of some things they find morally reprehensible for the greater good. In Dorn's case, he needs your help with tracking because he's hopeless at gathering information, so he's willing to put up with your silly "save the world" shenanigans.
Not quite, though - the Reputation mechanism works both ways. Good and Neutral characters aren't so quick to participate in morally reprehensible actions: Ajantis will turn against you if you try to kill Drizzt (and he has a 10% chance of attacking any evil party member), Jaheira and Mazzy will do the same in BG2, Yeslick hates Kagain and so on. In reality, all three moral alignments are loathe to step too far outside their comfort zone, so they'll leave if you act in ways that aren't consistent with their own beliefs.
@shawne I had a lot more written out, but I looked back and it turns out we don't really disagree so there wouldn't be any point in me arguing the same side in a different way
The bone I had to pick was whether it's conceivable for Dorn to care about merchant discounts, and I think it's entirely reasonable that charname could convince Dorn that a certain amount of sweet-talking and palm-greasing and general PR work is necessary in order to get the "hero's discount" that that stupid paladin Ajantis gets whenever he walks into the store. After all, as much we would love to steal it off some rich bugger the only place we've seen one is the smithy, so we're just going to have to suck it up and pay for it. But spend too long on it, and Dorn thinks you're just wasting his time and takes off.
I've just noticed that some people seem to be talking about store discounts as a reason for Evil NPCs sticking around. This might be an issue with gameplay/story integration and gamer priorities, but its worth bearing in mind that you get the store discounts *because* you are this well-liked noble person, you don;t become such a person to get store discounts. There is no way for your characters to know that by raising your reputation you will be getting bigger and bigger store discounts, and thus also no way for the Evil NPCs who travel with you to know similarly.
Yeah, but if a NPC travels with charname long enough, and enters enough stores with him/her, the NPC will notice that charname pays less. This might be reason enough for them to stick around. Especially Kagain as a business owner will have an eye on this - "hey, why does that guy pay half the gold for a plate mail than I usually pay?" Running a mercenary business, he likely buys certain items himself sometimes (armor, helmets, weapons - Iron Crisis and all, he probably has to replace his own gear after jobs) and knows the prices. So to Kagain, it would look like charname is a super smart business man/woman who gets crazy discounts, though he'd not make the meta connection between the prices and charisma/reputation. And charname seems to get better at it too the longer they travel. Kagain would have no reason to complain - he'd probably try to hire this business genius who gets better prices and has commoners throw gold into his/her face at every corner.
I can see Shar-Teel or Dorn get annoyed by not being ruthless enough, or Edwin getting tired of talking to stupid peasants, but Kagain's main concern is gold. He's not prejudiced against any group of people, he's not someone who wants "action" (or bloodbaths) - as long as his only demand, greed, is satisfied, I don't see him leave the group. As Lawful Neutral, he's start to complain about high or low reputation, but not leave. That would fit him better - too good rep is bad for business because as a mercenary, he needs to be somewhat imposing/feared to the potential attackers; too bad rep is bad for business because people might be too afraid to hire him in the first place. Neither is game breaking for him, just not ideal, so he'd complain, but leave charname the chance to correct it. Because right now, it's no concern; he's adventuring. It may be a concern later, when he returns to his business.
I find I have difficulty empathizing with an outright evil main character. I've led plenty of neutral parties that had a lot of morally gray dealings, but ultimately the game is more fun to me as a good character. I like the simplicity of gameplay sometimes; other times I like the NPCs better. This is obviously subjective, but you have to metagame the game much more if you want to function normally and be evil, cranking up or turning down your reputation constantly. Sometimes it's fun to just be the nice guy who secretly robs you blind, sometimes it's nice to not have to worry about whether this party member or that party member is going to be unhappy. I ought to try to finish BG:EE at least once with an evil character, but it hasn't happened yet. Somehow I just lose interest in the game.
Evil all the way. Good and most neutral characters are just outright irritating. Minsc is among the worst NPCs in the game (voice acting and texts), Jaheira close runner-up and Imoen makes my blood boil. On the other hand, evil characters are somewhat charming and just ...funny (Xzar, Montaron, Shar-Teel and especially TIAX). Not all evil character are automatically good, in my opinion, Edwin and Viconia are both somewhat corny and represent the "average" evil stereotypes or later Bioware games. Which is something to avoid.
@shawne Why can't he care about merchant discounts? Greed is pretty Neutral Evil. I'm sure Dorn would prefer a full plate sooner rather than later. What else would he want you to do with the money you spent on bribes - give it to him?
I think Dorn would rather strip that Full Plate off of someone's bloody and dismembered corpse rather than pay for it. It becomes a trophy and a badge of 'Honor'.
@kmfdm - I gotta disagree with you about Minsc. I think he is a scream most days. I do enjoy Shar-Teel though and am really enjoying my current play through with Monty quoting Alice in Wonderland every few seconds.
but then that is all in my highly subjective opinion. And you are entitled to yours as well as perfectly valid.
My point is that it's hard to strip a full plate off someone when no one we've seen has one...
I think Dorn would be much more impressed by you showing him how to kill ghosts and strip them of their full plate than by sweet talking Taerom into a discount
My point is that it's hard to strip a full plate off someone when no one we've seen has one...
I think Dorn would be much more impressed by you showing him how to kill ghosts and strip them of their full plate than by sweet talking Taerom into a discount
Or immobilising and killing a Demon Knight for a sweet Full Plate +1 XD, called 'Plate of the Dark', no less: very Dorn Il-Khan.
@the_spyder My point is that it's hard to strip a full plate off someone when no one we've seen has one...
True enough. Still, I think Dorn is all about the kill and the trophy rather than some dumb haggling that goes on. He strikes me as the type that would sweet talk someone by saying "Here's the deal. Give me the plate and I kill you slowly. Don't and I kill you EXTRA slowly. What a deal for you."
Heh, probably. But he decided to join me for a reason. After all, my methods work when his don't. Sometimes you need a wink and a smile, and sometimes you need a sharp blade and 19 strength. Even if we don't always agree which on one we should be using, it's a good partnership all around.
My point is that it's hard to strip a full plate off someone when no one we've seen has one...
I think Dorn would be much more impressed by you showing him how to kill ghosts and strip them of their full plate than by sweet talking Taerom into a discount
Or immobilising and killing a Demon Knight for a sweet Full Plate +1 XD, called 'Plate of the Dark', no less: very Dorn Il-Khan.
...until you also put the demon knight's helm on Dorn. Then he gets all emotional about stealing from that poor, tortured soul.
My point is that it's hard to strip a full plate off someone when no one we've seen has one...
I think Dorn would be much more impressed by you showing him how to kill ghosts and strip them of their full plate than by sweet talking Taerom into a discount
Or immobilising and killing a Demon Knight for a sweet Full Plate +1 XD, called 'Plate of the Dark', no less: very Dorn Il-Khan.
...until you also put the demon knight's helm on Dorn. Then he gets all emotional about stealing from that poor, tortured soul.
I like to think that the Demon Knight was some kind of kindly Lawful Good soul, perhaps alone among all his Chaotic Evil brethen, until eventually they forced a cursed helmet onto his head just to make him conform. The drama. The tragedy.
My point is that it's hard to strip a full plate off someone when no one we've seen has one...
I think Dorn would be much more impressed by you showing him how to kill ghosts and strip them of their full plate than by sweet talking Taerom into a discount
Or immobilising and killing a Demon Knight for a sweet Full Plate +1 XD, called 'Plate of the Dark', no less: very Dorn Il-Khan.
...until you also put the demon knight's helm on Dorn. Then he gets all emotional about stealing from that poor, tortured soul.
I like to think that the Demon Knight was some kind of kindly Lawful Good soul, perhaps alone among all his Chaotic Evil brethen, until eventually they forced a cursed helmet onto his head just to make him conform. The drama. The tragedy.
Yes, there should be a prequel expansion where you play the slow decent into madness as the not-yet-demon knight. In a final trial, you must pick out the one party member who is not a doppelganger and mercy kill that NPC to remain lawful good. If you fail, the doppelgangers force the helm on you. (Hint: the only non-doppelganger in the expansion is charname). Unwinnable! Dark, edgy, modern.
In all the years that I've played these games, every single time I play an evil or neutral+evil party I end up just getting a giant headache and starting over before I've even finished Nashkel. Like @Eudaemonium said, it really is just fighting the game the entire way. Which I personally don't find very entertaining. It's really more of a pain in the ass. On one hand, it is really annoying how the game is built for good guys only, however let's be realistic; life kind of is built for good guys. Nobody is going to want to deal with you if you're a well-known murderer or hang out with high-profile gang members or something. Strut around Faerun with a Blackguard half-orc, a Red Wizard of Thay, and a drow? Yeah, people aren't going to like you very much. Kind of a no-brainer. The biggest problem is that if you want to do a playthrough with a LOGICALLY evil character, everyone gets butthurt and leaves because weh reputation too high. I'm sorry but aside from Edwin (who is afflicted with the standard Red Wizard blind arrogance and a general impatience with having to do anything that involves interacting with non-Red Wizards) any evil character with common sense really should only see that having a good outward appearance will benefit them. The reputation system is so broken it makes me mental. I do agree with @KidCarnival, Shar-Teel and Dorn would probably prefer a more ruthless approach, and many of the things you do to raise your reputation are very obviously - at least from a roleplaying perspective - out of the goodness of your heart. I have never ever ever played through without Edwin and I never will, but I generally kick all the other bad guys to the curb. However I quite like Dorn and I also like Edwin/Viconia because I do shush. Soooo I'm trying it again. All I have to say is so far, I'm only a few hours in and already the headache is starting. That chick you hang out and kill the gibberlings with? Yeah, walked up to her and she attacked me. Killed her and welp there went two more reputation points. At this rate I'm going to be attack-on-sight status when I get back to a town. Also totally unrelated but holy crap could Dorn be any more overpowered?!
Also totally unrelated but holy crap could Dorn be any more overpowered?!
Yes, he could also have 18 in con and dex.
I don't really know if he's truly overpowered, but after I recruited him I ended up having to increase the difficulty to keep things interesting. It's fine now, albeit a pain keeping the mages alive.
Dorn is definitely in the category of "borderline OP"; its a very strong kit with basically no downsides, combined with an illegal race that gives him another advantage for the class. The rather low con and dex are "weaknesses" you can easily overcome.
Comments
In terms of archery or thievery, no.
In my current play-through, I had to do a few rep enhancing quests pretty quick or I wasn't going to survive. Particularly as I wanted Dorn on my team.
As far as I know all Dorn cares about (apart from killing Simmeon) is that you keep the bodies coming, so whether he's slaughtering innocents or evildoers is largely irrelevant as long as he can feed the bloodthirst of his patron. And it's not like he's going to find Simmeon on his own, getting drunk in the Friendly Arm Inn all day every day.
Evil characters don't have to be Evil all the time, and if they willingly join a Good or Neutral party, they've already accepted that they're going to have to make some compromises. Just like a Good character who joins an Evil party realizes they will probably need to be a part of some things they find morally reprehensible for the greater good. In Dorn's case, he needs your help with tracking because he's hopeless at gathering information, so he's willing to put up with your silly "save the world" shenanigans.
Dorn would not want to be known as a gentle giant who helps widows and orpheans; his patron may see it as a sign of weakness.
Drow society despises weakness; so does Shar-Teel, hence both she and Viconia don't like the reputation of having a bleeding heart.
Edwin and Tiax are power hungry and don't want to be seen as weak either; they want to be feared and admired for their power.
I draw a blank on Eldoth and Kagain tho. Eldoth makes a living from charming and scamming people, so he would absolutely want the reputation of a nice guy. Kagain cares about money, so store prices are very relevant to him, and he chose a business that deals with protecting people (as opposed to a criminal career or something that puts money above lives; he protects lives for money). Frankly, Kagain isn't evil - to me, he's Lawful Neutral. He's no criminal and he doesn't go out of his way to do good, but his profession pretty clearly says he rather doesn't kill commoners. Dead people don't pay him.
Otherwise, what @KidCarnival said.
The bone I had to pick was whether it's conceivable for Dorn to care about merchant discounts, and I think it's entirely reasonable that charname could convince Dorn that a certain amount of sweet-talking and palm-greasing and general PR work is necessary in order to get the "hero's discount" that that stupid paladin Ajantis gets whenever he walks into the store. After all, as much we would love to steal it off some rich bugger the only place we've seen one is the smithy, so we're just going to have to suck it up and pay for it. But spend too long on it, and Dorn thinks you're just wasting his time and takes off.
So to Kagain, it would look like charname is a super smart business man/woman who gets crazy discounts, though he'd not make the meta connection between the prices and charisma/reputation. And charname seems to get better at it too the longer they travel. Kagain would have no reason to complain - he'd probably try to hire this business genius who gets better prices and has commoners throw gold into his/her face at every corner.
I can see Shar-Teel or Dorn get annoyed by not being ruthless enough, or Edwin getting tired of talking to stupid peasants, but Kagain's main concern is gold. He's not prejudiced against any group of people, he's not someone who wants "action" (or bloodbaths) - as long as his only demand, greed, is satisfied, I don't see him leave the group. As Lawful Neutral, he's start to complain about high or low reputation, but not leave. That would fit him better - too good rep is bad for business because as a mercenary, he needs to be somewhat imposing/feared to the potential attackers; too bad rep is bad for business because people might be too afraid to hire him in the first place. Neither is game breaking for him, just not ideal, so he'd complain, but leave charname the chance to correct it. Because right now, it's no concern; he's adventuring. It may be a concern later, when he returns to his business.
Good and most neutral characters are just outright irritating. Minsc is among the worst NPCs in the game (voice acting and texts), Jaheira close runner-up and Imoen makes my blood boil.
On the other hand, evil characters are somewhat charming and just ...funny (Xzar, Montaron, Shar-Teel and especially TIAX). Not all evil character are automatically good, in my opinion, Edwin and Viconia are both somewhat corny and represent the "average" evil stereotypes or later Bioware games. Which is something to avoid.
@kmfdm - I gotta disagree with you about Minsc. I think he is a scream most days. I do enjoy Shar-Teel though and am really enjoying my current play through with Monty quoting Alice in Wonderland every few seconds.
but then that is all in my highly subjective opinion. And you are entitled to yours as well as perfectly valid.
The biggest problem is that if you want to do a playthrough with a LOGICALLY evil character, everyone gets butthurt and leaves because weh reputation too high. I'm sorry but aside from Edwin (who is afflicted with the standard Red Wizard blind arrogance and a general impatience with having to do anything that involves interacting with non-Red Wizards) any evil character with common sense really should only see that having a good outward appearance will benefit them. The reputation system is so broken it makes me mental. I do agree with @KidCarnival, Shar-Teel and Dorn would probably prefer a more ruthless approach, and many of the things you do to raise your reputation are very obviously - at least from a roleplaying perspective - out of the goodness of your heart.
I have never ever ever played through without Edwin and I never will, but I generally kick all the other bad guys to the curb. However I quite like Dorn and I also like Edwin/Viconia because I do shush. Soooo I'm trying it again. All I have to say is so far, I'm only a few hours in and already the headache is starting. That chick you hang out and kill the gibberlings with? Yeah, walked up to her and she attacked me. Killed her and welp there went two more reputation points. At this rate I'm going to be attack-on-sight status when I get back to a town.
Also totally unrelated but holy crap could Dorn be any more overpowered?!