For a game like this? Sure, I'm sure it will be pretty insignificant. Well, it depends on what you think would make you more: a game with DRM, or a game without. I'd be more tempted to lean on the latter, but that's just me. Insignificant sales lost is still sales lost.
Well, for BGEE? I might agree with DRM leading to more lost sales than sales gained. Its just that I doubt Beamdog would have got permision to create BGEE if they hadn't guaranteed the other license holders that some form of DRM would be in the game.
The original license holders probably have a blanket pro-DRM policy and probably didn't consider the limited demographic which is interested in this game. As such, I sincerely doubt that even convincing Beamdog would be of help in eliminating the DRM. My experience has been that when dealing with monolithic corporations trying to defend their patents, they are unwilling to grant exceptions to established policy. It isn't Beamdog you have to convince, it's whomever owns the original license to the properties.
The other parties have already allowed their property to be sold DRM free over on GOG. I agree that the DRM was probably a requirement this time. But I also think Beamdog's position may be much stronger if this project is a success. And I am trying to encourage them to use this position to push for a DRM free agenda moving forward.
I think there's a big difference between a starving mother and child and a guy who wants to play a videogame.
Then you lack the vivid imagination and possibly the willpower, no wonder why you always sound so serious, and hardly ever laugh, if you laugh at all.
You have a job to do (or win) here, there are certain compromises a man should make to earn a living, I will not be the judge of you, though you have already condemned me as a pirate and a thief and probably hanged me...
But I tire easily, this conversation holds no real interest to me anymore, where sinless saints keep performing exorcisms, banishing the evil in me (why only me?), burning those damnable witches with their holy fire.
Enough is enough, same people keep repeating themselves, speaking wooden tongues, using big words, making empty statements, acting all nice, being the true gentlemen they are, but saying nothing, at least nothing positive or useful.
Well I like to learn new and interesting things everyday, hate repeating myself over and over again, prefer to have some laughs instead, albeit bitter sometimes, life IS short, even laugh at my own weaknesses first and foremost, scares the boogie-man we hide inside away.
I leave you to your bickering, and like that little devil of an impish buttler would say "ENjOY"...
A word of advice to the people in charge though. Forum moderators should be less fanatic, and a lot less active in the threads, it's simply not fair (with all those dirty little tricks) for the audience, your potential customers. Put a leash on your lapdogs, you know the concept of moderate, nothing intense or extreme there.
Ultimately I could quote Morte and say "go kiss a bear-trap, will ya", but I'm not that rotten, so I will simply quote young and innocent Imoen and say, lemme think, gosh what was her favorite line, oh yes "I care not"...
And please stop acting like civil disobedience has not proven to be a very effective mechanism for change in this country. Piracy is not always an evil act. There are many ways of enacting change and this is one of them. Whether or not you agree with the morality of it doesn't change the effectiveness. If you can show a corporation that a policy costs them more than it makes them a change may occur. I've already bought the game. But if someone else who would have paid for the game is so offended by DRM that they seek a readily available alternative I will not be casting any stones. I do dislike people who pirate everything and have no desire to ever pay. But like I said before, they were never going to be customers anyway and aren't worth a second thought.
The thing about this argument is that it instantly falls apart as soon as you realize that not buying the game would have the exact same effect to the company: a lost sale.
If someone doesn't want to buy a game with DRM, then they can just not buy it. As soon as you pirate it instead you're just a hypocrite.
I don't understand how you come to this conclusion. "A lost sale" to me means that they were going to make the purchase, but then something changed their mind - whether it be terrible reviews, DRM, news that DLC comes out on day 1 when they are against that practice, etc. So, let's use Spore for example. DRM is announced, people who were going to purchase Spore now don't BECAUSE of that. That's a lost sale. Now, those same people discover they can get a far superior product by downloading it for free. They will of course take this option. Don't get into the "morals" of it - this doesn't matter. There is no morality god. People have different views on things, and if they can "moralize it" to themselves, then that is all that matters. So what if it's against your morals, or against the law. To them, they are perfectly justifying it to themselves that downloading is OK. That's the point. Companies need to realize this and find ways to defeat their arguments that makes pirating OK in their minds. Harsher punishment for downloading isn't going to help, and stricter DRM that alienates more customers, and justifies pirating further into the minds of those that pirate, doesn't help either.
Is BG:EE strict DRM. It's nothing compared to what is out there, but that doesn't matter to some people. DRM is DRM. They want the game they paid money for. They want it WHEN they want it, HOW they want it. If you can't deliver them that, they will find someone who can (torrent sites). If Assassin's Creed II came out with terrible DRM (which it did), and was sold for $50. Then, a cracker took Assassin's Creed II and cracked the DRM, and released it for $50, I guarantee you people would buy it from them. Sometimes, it's not about the money or "being cheap."
A CD check bypass is simple single file download that takes 3 seconds and is readily available. Bypassing authentication on a game is actual work on my end.
No, bypassing the authentication of a game is another download that takes 3 seconds.
Well, I'm not that familiar with going out and finding cracks for games EXCEPT from a long time ago when I went for the No-CD ones for Baldur's Gate and such.
Still doesn't matter - it's still illegal to have it, and it still could take functionality of the game from me with the lack of Online play. No-CD cracks as far as I know have never done this. No-CD cracks also grab no attention from the industry. And now with how some programs work, you can simply "mount" the ISOs - no need for No-CD cracks anyway.
And you still throw that word "cheap" around to classify everyone that downloads games. Assumptions are dangerous, and you should open your mind. I don't think you understand how people operate at all. You have several types:
Yes there are several types, but we're talking about one type here: the ones who use DRM as an excuse to pirate a game.
That still doesn't prove they are cheap. You think people download Assassin's Creed because they are cheap, or because they don't want a rootkit on their machine? I would say some people do it because they are cheap, others strictly because of DRM. I wouldn't say DRM is ALWAYS an excuse for the cheap.
It's also because some consumers think it is a terrible idea and don't want to bend over and just take it.
So, "don't pirate" you say?
Yeah, and then the industry is going to think DRM actually works and start using it more, and more, and more, and more. I think the point is to show them just how pointless DRM is. Then MAYBE they will learn the errors of their ways. How do you do that without pirating? I don't think you can. If you can come up with a better way, I'm all for it.
You might say, "vote with your wallet - don't purchase the game!" Ok, but if the industry thinks DRM actually works, then ALL games are going to have it. If you don't purchase the game, then you aren't playing any games anymore. If everyone stops buying games, then the industry fails. And, IF there are those companies that come out against DRM as well and release a game without it, if it sucks, people aren't going to spend their money on it. The loop continues - the sales are low because it, according to the game industry, didn't have DRM.
And, while we are on that, no one can actually prove pirating has a negative impact on sales.
As far as your third option: It is not legally acceptable to pirate it. Morally? Different people have different morals.
Amorality isn't a justification for piracy either.
My point is that different people have different morals, and therefore they will justify it in their own mind. That is all that matters. You have to combat this justification that people do.
This goes back to my example of murder. People justify it, and it still happens. I think murder is far worse than pirating, so if people can justify it, they can justify downloading a game.
Please explain how you devalue the product? If anything, you enhance its popularity.
Piracy only really works as free publicity for obscure titles. For popular and well-known brands, easy-access to pirated goods is much more likely to be detrimental to sales.
So, Avatar, which was one of the most pirated movies when it come out, didn't have good sales? Again, there is NO proof that piracy hurts sales. This is because you can't prove each download is a person that would have purchased the game. Why can't you prove it? Because it's not true.
To explain this further: I made a comment in regards to someone saying that I should buy the game and then crack it. Well, if I am going to buy the game at full price, just so I can spend countless hours trying to crack it, in order to get a version that I can install anytime WITHOUT connecting to the Internet (which I think I deserve since I bought it anyway), I think I should get a rebate. Meaning, I'm not going to pay full price for a game that I have to spend my time on altering in order to get it to be the product that I want. Not only this, by doing so, I might ruin my chances to play online. So, not only am I wasting time, I'm losing functionality.
Yes, they are still good, but you are rating the product AS A WHOLE. This includes EVERY aspect of it, including packaging, playback ability, etc. The same goes for a game. I love Baldur's Gate, but DRM is part of the product now in the Enhanced Edition. It makes the game less valuable in my opinion. So less, that it's not worth buying at all. And, if there was a chance I was good enough to crack the game myself, it would take a lot of time and education to do so. I want compensated for that. I am not saying they should remove the DRM and then sell it to me for cheaper. Hell, if they removed the DRM and sold it for $50, I would buy it.
I completely understand rating the product as a whole and I agree. People are entitled to their opinions. However, you seem to be under the impression that you get to determine the price of what you bought. I suppose in a certain respect you could try to haggle with the seller, but if they're not willing to budge, you don't deserve a penny. If you bought this game, you knew what you were getting (DRM and all) and you're perfectly able and permitted to complain about it, but you have no right to any money back for something you knew you were getting. While it's true that your labor involved in cracking the software is worth something (to you), nobody ever represented to you that you would be compensated for that and it's not a feature that's missing. It's part of the product as a whole, as you wrote. It's somewhat of an illusion of entitlement, this argument. You're not entitled to anything other than what the company promised.
When I made this comment, I wasn't making it because that's truly how I felt. I wasn't making it because I truly felt it was logical for the company to give me money for having to crack their game.
I don't know how to explain it any better than I did. I'm sort of exaggerating a bit with those words. It's doesn't make any sense AT ALL for the company to give the game to me cheaper than anyone else, and I wouldn't expect them to. Yes, it is their product, they put it out there for a price.
This came up because someone said I should buy the game and then crack it to make it the product I want. My point is that I'm not up for paying full price so I can spend my time cracking the game (or, even downloading a crack, whatever - it's still illegal). Also, by cracking, I'm most likely losing online functionality. So, why should I be expected to pay the same price as everyone else for a product I DON'T want (as a whole - I want the game, but I don't' want the DRM), and a product that has less functionality? I shouldn't be expected to do that. Neither should pirates who use "DRM as an excuse." They shouldn't be expected to do this anymore than the company should be expected to lower their prices to make up for the work and loss of functionality that those specific consumers will have to do.
Again, I'm not saying I deserve money off. I'm trying to make a point that it's ludicrous to expect anyone to pay full price for something that they have to put their own time into to still not get the product they really want (they want the DRM gone, not the online functionality).
A CD check bypass is simple single file download that takes 3 seconds and is readily available. Bypassing authentication on a game is actual work on my end. And, if it's as easy as finding a version online to download, well, I'm still breaking the law. Why would I legally purchase a game so I can break the law? So the developers can get money? I bet if I am sued, and I proved to the developers that I bought the game first, I would still get sued. Again, black and white - no gray.
Creating the CD check may be as much work as bypassing authentication. Until we've done it ourselves, we don't really know. I don't know that one is less work than the other but it could be as easy as commenting out 2 lines of code.
True. I never made a no-CD crack before. They have always been readily available, and since I purchased the game, I would be willing to pour in about 3 more seconds of time to get it perfectly how I want it. Bypassing authentication though is another matter. I don't know if I can get these on their own, or if I have to download the entire game? Either way, I'm pretty sure online functionality is lost.
People are trying to comment on every little thing I say instead of looking at the point I'm trying to make.
7) Then, yes, there are some people that just download it because they don't want to pay money (and are cheap - but this is very few)
I think this number is greater than you believe. Pirating these days, while much riskier, is still very easy. Even worse, many people who know next to nothing about computers believe it is perfectly acceptable. They have a misguided notion that once they buy a piece of software, they own it and can install it on as many computers as they wish. Very few EULAs permit this, but they do it anyway if they can get away with it. They loan it out to their friends, their buddy or kid who "knows all about computers" installs it for them or cracks it. I've even seen some people in a professional setting (retail computer stores) install pirated and cracked copies of Windows on customers' computers (and were paid for it). It goes on all the time, everyday, everywhere.
Again, you are making broad assumptions. I don't disagree with you - those things definitely happen. Many of those things have ALWAYS happened though (loaning out games, copying it for friends, etc.). Some people, like you (sorry if I'm being harsh), look at ONLY the POSSIBLE negatives. And, maybe I look at it too much from the positive angle. But, look at how much the game industry has grown. Many people have been made into gamers by their friends giving them copies of Baldur's Gate to play. Those games sold a TON of copies, so many, that there is a remake being made of it. How many games are there remakes to (and don't say Call of Duty, it's technically a new game I suppose ).
What if someone had Vista and was thinking about going over to a Mac? Instead though, I told them about how great Windows 7 is, and installed a crack version on their machine. Guess what happens when Windows 8 comes out? They purchase it. I just saved Microsoft a customer - someone who possibly was going to switch over to a Mac.
Point is, piracy has so many effects, and so many things are connected, that we can never truly see the value or lack of value that piracy provides. Again, you can't prove it hurts the industry. I can't prove it helps. We all have small examples of how it has helped though, and also how it has hurt. The truth is that it will ALWAYS be around, so don't be giving people extra excuses to do it.
Unfortunately, law is black and white. We are people though, and morals are gray. It is morally fine for many people to pirate a game if they had NO intention of purchasing it in the first place. It is morally fine for many people to pirate a game in order to "try before you buy." Just because it doesn't fit your morals, doesn't mean it doesn't fit someone else's. Game companies, and law makers for that matter, need to realize that there are gray areas. They also need to realize that we are people, and there are so many unique circumstances to consider when you are judging the actions of someone else.
... Making laws harsher (making DRM stronger) won't fix the issue. The issue is to figure out WHY people act the way they do, and fix that problem.
I would not say that morals are grey, but that some people don't value morality as much as others. It is not that those who murder believe it to be moral, but they believe an immoral act can be justified under certain circumstances. I think everyone here (and in society) believes that murder is immoral. Murder of a child rapist though... it's still murder, but many people say, "They deserved it." That is, unfortunately, a human failing in thinking that we can take the law into our own hands. That's not acceptable. I may not agree with laws, but when I agree in a society to live according to those laws, I have a responsibility to follow them, even if I don't agree. I can work to change them, or defend myself legally with a justification, and if (in America at least), a jury of my peers find that I was justified, they can set me free or even refuse to acknowledge the validity of the law, but I may have still committed an immoral act.
Laws are made by people. People are swayed by money. Not all laws are great laws. People therefore don't agree with all laws. And, with any law/morals, people can find ways justifying them breaking it. Take that justification away.
The "try before you buy" argument holds no water. That's what demos are for and nobody's entitled to those either (unless the company voluntarily puts them out there).
Not everyone offers demos. If you want to take that off the list of why people pirate, then you need to offer them a demo. It's not hard, so just do it. No, there is no entitlement. But, it's not about entitlement - it's about "why do people pirate." Answer - they justify it to themselves. "How do we stop pirating?" - well, it's been around forever, and you can't completely. You can see HOW people justify it and attack it from those angles though. One is, "try before you buy." No entitlement, but if companies want to take the steps to reduce piracy, that's one they can do.
Maybe your point is that some people feel like they have that entitlement? Well, you aren't going to change their minds by saying they don't. You can only cater to those customers.
I don't even think people consider the morality of what they're doing in these circumstances. They see a chance to get something for free, they take it, and justify it to themselves by saying that it's a big corporation and they can afford to lose that money... it's only $20 after all. They don't even think about the fact that there could be millions of people doing the same thing and that there were people who worked sometimes for years on these projects and deserve to be paid. I agree that making laws harsher won't fix the problem. The market needs to come up with creative ways to protect digital property and satisfy the demands of customers. We'll get there, we're just not there yet. There wasn't a legal mechanism for purchasing digital music a few years ago. Now there is. Just because there's no solution still doesn't justify theft.
Again, if they can justify it being a moral decision in their mind, then it's fine for them to do it. Legally, it doesn't justify theft...but it does in their minds, and that's all that matters. That's what you have to combat.
I'll go back to the cheap argument again here, one more time. Give $50 million to everyone who says they pirate games because they don't have the money, and see what happens. I bet they will all start buying them.
Is this possible or practical? No, this is a hypothetical situation/test.
Actually, piracy is copyright infringement. Theft is something else. Theft takes the actual object, making it unavailable for other people to purchase (example, if I take a CD from a store, they lose the ability to sell that object). If I download the CD, the object still exists for purchase. Now, I did not purchase it, but would have I in the first place? I guess in a way you could see it as theft, but if no purchase was intended in the first place, it is much less severe.
Please explain how you devalue the product? If anything, you enhance its popularity. I'm not agreeing with piracy, but I'm not closing my mind off either.
A proper comparison would be counterfeiting. I believe it's a more insidious kind of theft and just as severe. It has to do with the basic economics of scarce resources. Counterfeiting money is illegal because if everyone could replicate dollars, dollars would have no value. There would be so many of them out there that the same dollars wouldn't buy the same number of goods. Prices would go through the roof because people couldn't measure value properly.
If a million copies of a particular piece of software are made available for free, nobody is going to pay for it. If a million copies of a work of art are made, and indistinguishable from the original, the value of that artwork is much less than an original single piece. That's why forgeries aren't as valuable as the original as well. Granted, the difference between theft and copyright infringement is more of a technical and legal term as nothing is being stolen but then again, you never owned that software anyway. You only own a license to use it. Appropriating a license without paying for it can carry some pretty severe legal consequences in most countries.
I think this works in the open market. If there are 200000 billion gallons of gas sitting and waiting to be used, but consumption is only 20 gallons a day, then prices will be REALLY low and value has been destroyed.
People still love legally purchasing LEGAL items. So again, why don't they? I've listed several reasons before. Attack these reasons.
I'll go back to Avengers. It was highly pirated before the movie even came out. Ticket prices didn't decrease though, did they? The movie still make over 1 billion worldwide.
I actually think if there were 1 million fake paintings of something famous and valuable from 5,000 years ago, and I had the only REAL one, the value of that would be crazy high.
Hrmm...a lot to comment on here. My one thought though before I turn in for the night is that corporations are appearing to learn, but then they prove they have no clue. Itunes rocks, and then they bump up prices. Digital distribution prices are still too high, and the more popular it gets, the more prices go up. I know Mr. CEO has 4 houses and wants another, but not everyone is made of money. You can either make things REALLY expensive, and sell a few, or you can make things REALLY cheap and sell a lot. McDonalds is a good example of the latter, and they make LOTS of money. Now, is McDonalds good? Eh, it's not the best, but much of the music out there is crap too. I use radio and Pandora, and only stick to buying a few CDs of the bands I really love.
And no, I'm not saying it's OK to pirate if a game is too expensive. I'm just stating it's another reason people do, and it should be addressed. Price things fairly - it shouldn't cost me more to buy digital songs that it would to purchase the album in a store.
Well, I don't buy the notion that corporations raise prices just because they can or because CEOs are greedy. Companies that do this don't last very long. Apple has chosen to target a higher price point and make more profit per unit than Amazon. Both strategies have worked in markets like tablets. People are willing to pay more for more features, larger screens, and innovation. However, as long as prices are determined in a free marketplace, both are justified. You can choose to pay more for Apple, or you can buy a cheaper tablet. Both may serve your needs just as well as the other and you get to make the choice, but one approach is not better than the other. As for digital music, I would point out that now you have the choice to go a la carte, but we did not before. If we wanted a single track, we either had to hope there was a single released, or make copies and extract that track. Now you can buy only the single for a buck or the whole album for what, $9 or $10? That's a general price decrease compared to 20 years ago when a CD cost $19.99 and you didn't get to choose what you got. It was all or nothing. When you factor in all the options for digital radio, it's amazing the level of choice we have now that we didn't have before. I don't think prices are too high at all right now, but I've never used iTunes (I avoid the i because of their closed system mentality). As long as pricing is not determined in a monopoly, by a government, or in a highly regulated economy, the price you get is fair and what the market has determined. It may not be to your liking, but it's not as if there is a puppeteer arbitrarily determining the price.
Thanks for your thoughts.
I went a little off topic with this. But, as just a quick example: When Whitney Houston died, prices of her album immediately shot up on iTunes. Why?
Because demand was higher, and supply would be ate up quickly? No, because this was a digital download of an album. There are NO supply limits. It was greed. People didn't like it, and I'm sure some turned to downloading.
Don't insult the people who actually want to give you money. It's not good business.
Demand was higher because people were reminded of how much they liked Whitney Houston's music and wanted to own it. In that case, supply had nothing to do it and companies merely capitalized on an event in order to make some money. I don't consider that greed anymore than I consider it charity when companies put things on sale. Prices go up and down all the time. Unless a company is attempting to monopolize a scarce resource and charging ridiculously high prices for it, it's not greed in a general sense.
Then again, perhaps Apple is just a greedy high-priced overrated corporation
It's a shame you consider it an insult to have DRM on a product. I don't see why you should feel that way. Do you feel insulted because you go to your friends' house and his doors are locked? Neither person is assuming you're personally a thief; they're just protecting their stuff.
Demand was higher because people were reminded of how much they liked Whitney Houston's music and wanted to own it. In that case, supply had nothing to do it and companies merely capitalized on an event in order to make some money. I don't consider that greed anymore than I consider it charity when companies put things on sale. Prices go up and down all the time. Unless a company is attempting to monopolize a scarce resource and charging ridiculously high prices for it, it's not greed in a general sense.
Then again, perhaps Apple is just a greedy high-priced overrated corporation
It's a shame you consider it an insult to have DRM on a product. I don't see why you should feel that way. Do you feel insulted because you go to your friends' house and his doors are locked? Neither person is assuming you're personally a thief; they're just protecting their stuff.
I'm glad you don't like Apple any more than I do. But, the album was priced in a way that made them money. Then, they go ahead and bump up the price to capitalize on her death and try to squeeze out what they can. IF it had to do with supply and demand, I would understand. With digital entertainment though, it has nothing to do with supply and demand, it has strictly to do with making more money. People get insulted in this way. They already have WAY more money than I do, and I want to buy this, but now you want more of my money for NO good reason? Screw you.
I see what you are saying, but it's a strange analogy. If I called up my friend and he said he would leave the door unlocked for me, and then I came over and it was locked, then I would be like, "wtf?" So, if I purchase a game thinking I have the ability to play when I want and where I want, and then the DRM restricts this, I still think, "wtf?" If I go to buy the game and I'm told about the DRM, about how it could possibly restrict me for accessing it in 2 years, in 5 years, or whatever, I'm going to be like, " 'f off."
I'm not paying to get into my friends house. I'm paying for a game.
That being said, I understand the right to protect your stuff. I don't like how this hinders my ability though to possibly enjoy something I paid for in a few years. I still haven't played Oblivion and I bought it 2 years ago. I might not play it for another 3 years, but I know I will eventually do so. I don't want it lingering in the back of my head that I need to hurry up and install this game because I might not be able to when it comes around that I have time.
A final point to make is that companies are there to sell products that serve the customer's needs. You need the customers to survive. You need to listen to what the customers want, instead of cramming down your beliefs and what you want and expecting them to lap it up. It also doesn't help that details on games are so locked up, "proof" that reviewers are paid off has risen, demos aren't offered, games are priced high, DRM does not help the customer's experience in ANY way, games aren't available in every part of the world that wants it (there is a popular Japanese Wii game right now that people are pirating because they won't release it in the states). Give the customers what they want! This doesn't mean free games, but it does mean creating something that they value, that comes with a positive experience, one where they believe they are getting a good deal, and one where the customer feels respected and appreciated.
you know what, reading the posts of people who say they don't want the 'evil DRM', i'll accept the fact that no matter how minor blah blah blah. I preordered because i want to support the company. My money isn't just for this game, but it's so that i'll be ABLE to buy bg2 +tob EE from these guys, and MAYBE bg3 or even planescape EE. Everyone else is using this as an excuse, but if the DRM really bothers you, most of you said you'll pirate it, just buy the game, download the pirated version instead. That would really confuse 'the man'. He won't know what to do when 3 million buy the game, only 2 million download what they paid for, and another 2 million pirate it.
You know, I don't even remember if I actually deleted any of your comments. Heck, I didn't even ban the duplicate account you made just to have another guy supporting your posts in this topic. So I really don't know what "dirty little tricks" you're talking about.
As for my role as a moderator, you apparently think that while you should be able to post whatever you feel like, I should be gagged and restricted from posting my thoughts. While it is true that moderators need to be careful that their posts don't affect the image of Overhaul/Beamdog, I don't think anything I've posted here (or elsewhere on the boards for that matter) would negatively affect them. More so when I am just a volunteer, I am not a part of Overhaul or Beamdog and I've always been careful to make sure that people know this.
However, if you or anyone else has any complaints concerning my behaviour you are free to send a message to one of the administrators/developers (you can easily find them by clicking "Activity" and checking the all time leaders list, most of the people there are part of the development team). Overhaul is free to remove my moderator status as they see fit if they think that I'm doing more harm than good.
And please stop acting like civil disobedience has not proven to be a very effective mechanism for change in this country. Piracy is not always an evil act. There are many ways of enacting change and this is one of them. Whether or not you agree with the morality of it doesn't change the effectiveness. If you can show a corporation that a policy costs them more than it makes them a change may occur. I've already bought the game. But if someone else who would have paid for the game is so offended by DRM that they seek a readily available alternative I will not be casting any stones. I do dislike people who pirate everything and have no desire to ever pay. But like I said before, they were never going to be customers anyway and aren't worth a second thought.
The thing about this argument is that it instantly falls apart as soon as you realize that not buying the game would have the exact same effect to the company: a lost sale.
If someone doesn't want to buy a game with DRM, then they can just not buy it. As soon as you pirate it instead you're just a hypocrite.
I don't understand how you come to this conclusion.
Well, that's because you're not talking about the same thing as me. Treyolen was argumenting that people would pirate DRM containing games to make a point, but the same point could easily be made by simply not buying the game. Which is why I called them hypocrites.
Well, I'm not that familiar with going out and finding cracks for games EXCEPT from a long time ago when I went for the No-CD ones for Baldur's Gate and such.
Still doesn't matter - it's still illegal to have it, and it still could take functionality of the game from me with the lack of Online play. No-CD cracks as far as I know have never done this. No-CD cracks also grab no attention from the industry. And now with how some programs work, you can simply "mount" the ISOs - no need for No-CD cracks anyway.
You keep bringing up new arguments, but the end result is still the same. You apparently have no problem with buying CDs and then illegally bypassing their DRM, but with BGEE's its suddenly a problem for you.
I'll grant that multi-player functionality might be a problem but if you're going online to play multi-player I'm sure you can also connect to the servers to activate your installation anyway, so its a moot point really.
And, while we are on that, no one can actually prove pirating has a negative impact on sales.
Really? Look at the music industry, or PC gaming, or sales on the PSP console. You can easily see how the increase in the ease of pirating over the years affected sales.
My point is that different people have different morals, and therefore they will justify it in their own mind. That is all that matters. You have to combat this justification that people do.
Yes, and my point is still that amorality isn't a justification for piracy either. I honestly don't believe that many people pirate a game instead of buying it because of DRM, they just claim that.
Please explain how you devalue the product? If anything, you enhance its popularity.
Piracy only really works as free publicity for obscure titles. For popular and well-known brands, easy-access to pirated goods is much more likely to be detrimental to sales.
So, Avatar, which was one of the most pirated movies when it come out, didn't have good sales? Again, there is NO proof that piracy hurts sales. This is because you can't prove each download is a person that would have purchased the game. Why can't you prove it? Because it's not true.
Avatar had good sales despite piracy, not because of it (which is what you were implying). And of course not every download is a lost sale, but its a safe assumption that some of them are.
You can also install it how many times you wish on every computer you have.
In the original game, my brother and I would play on a joint Multiplayer server.
If we have the Enhanced Edition installed on multiple computers in our own home, would they be able to play local Multiplayer games like the original game?
You're calling direct insulting comments, some classic quotes from the heroes of our all time favorite game? You are not only fascist, you are a tactless and humorless fascist who underestimates the finesse and refined spirit of some very talented & inspired people who created those characters, along with their lines and the whole Baldur's Gate Saga for that matter...
Just because the insults you use are quotes that doesn't stop them from being insults. They have a proper use in the game, they are not to be used on the forums to insult other users.
You know, I don't even remember if I actually deleted any of your comments. Heck, I didn't even ban the duplicate account you made just to have another guy supporting your posts in this topic. So I really don't know what "dirty little tricks" you're talking about.
As for my role as a moderator, you apparently think that while you should be able to post whatever you feel like, I should be gagged and restricted from posting my thoughts. While it is true that moderators need to be careful that their posts don't affect the image of Overhaul/Beamdog, I don't think anything I've posted here (or elsewhere on the boards for that matter) would negatively affect them. More so when I am just a volunteer, I am not a part of Overhaul or Beamdog and I've always been careful to make sure that people know this.
However, if you or anyone else has any complaints concerning my behaviour you are free to send a message to one of the administrators/developers (you can easily find them by clicking "Activity" and checking the all time leaders list, most of the people there are part of the development team). Overhaul is free to remove my moderator status as they see fit if they think that I'm doing more harm than good.
Even though we will never fully agree on the DRM argument , I think you are a fine moderator.
you know what, reading the posts of people who say they don't want the 'evil DRM', i'll accept the fact that no matter how minor blah blah blah. I preordered because i want to support the company. My money isn't just for this game, but it's so that i'll be ABLE to buy bg2 +tob EE from these guys, and MAYBE bg3 or even planescape EE. Everyone else is using this as an excuse, but if the DRM really bothers you, most of you said you'll pirate it, just buy the game, download the pirated version instead. That would really confuse 'the man'. He won't know what to do when 3 million buy the game, only 2 million download what they paid for, and another 2 million pirate it.
It sounds like a great idea, but at the same time:
1) you are adding another number to the download number, and people will automatically assume it's a lost sale when it isn't.
2) You are still breaking the law, and I bet if I got caught I couldn't get out of it by proving I had a legally purchased version. If I'm going to take the risk, I'm not going ot make the purchase.
Again, not saying I will pirate, just speaking for those on the other side of the street.
DRM !? Market for Secondhand, vs. DRM. ! About our materialized versions of Baldur Gate ?
-One of the aspects:
-Market for Secondhand, vs. DRM.
" usus, fructus et abusus "
Well, for you that promotes:
Ecological Benefit :
a) Sustainable Development ?, The Market for Secondhand or DRM Architecture?
Business Model :
b) And the Solidarity Economy ?, The Market for Secondhand or DRM Architecture?
Rights :
c) And Consumer Rights ?, The Market for Secondhand or DRM Architecture?
Question : So what will happen to the thousands, rather millions of Baldur Gate boxed/cd/dvd versions that exist all around the world ? No one thought how to recycle them with Enhanced Version ?
Comments
Well, for BGEE? I might agree with DRM leading to more lost sales than sales gained. Its just that I doubt Beamdog would have got permision to create BGEE if they hadn't guaranteed the other license holders that some form of DRM would be in the game.
You have a job to do (or win) here, there are certain compromises a man should make to earn a living, I will not be the judge of you, though you have already condemned me as a pirate and a thief and probably hanged me...
But I tire easily, this conversation holds no real interest to me anymore, where sinless saints keep performing exorcisms, banishing the evil in me (why only me?), burning those damnable witches with their holy fire.
Enough is enough, same people keep repeating themselves, speaking wooden tongues, using big words, making empty statements, acting all nice, being the true gentlemen they are, but saying nothing, at least nothing positive or useful.
Well I like to learn new and interesting things everyday, hate repeating myself over and over again, prefer to have some laughs instead, albeit bitter sometimes, life IS short, even laugh at my own weaknesses first and foremost, scares the boogie-man we hide inside away.
I leave you to your bickering, and like that little devil of an impish buttler would say "ENjOY"...
A word of advice to the people in charge though. Forum moderators should be less fanatic, and a lot less active in the threads, it's simply not fair (with all those dirty little tricks) for the audience, your potential customers. Put a leash on your lapdogs, you know the concept of moderate, nothing intense or extreme there.
Ultimately I could quote Morte and say "go kiss a bear-trap, will ya", but I'm not that rotten, so I will simply quote young and innocent Imoen and say, lemme think, gosh what was her favorite line, oh yes "I care not"...
I don't understand how you come to this conclusion. "A lost sale" to me means that they were going to make the purchase, but then something changed their mind - whether it be terrible reviews, DRM, news that DLC comes out on day 1 when they are against that practice, etc. So, let's use Spore for example. DRM is announced, people who were going to purchase Spore now don't BECAUSE of that. That's a lost sale. Now, those same people discover they can get a far superior product by downloading it for free. They will of course take this option. Don't get into the "morals" of it - this doesn't matter. There is no morality god. People have different views on things, and if they can "moralize it" to themselves, then that is all that matters. So what if it's against your morals, or against the law. To them, they are perfectly justifying it to themselves that downloading is OK. That's the point. Companies need to realize this and find ways to defeat their arguments that makes pirating OK in their minds. Harsher punishment for downloading isn't going to help, and stricter DRM that alienates more customers, and justifies pirating further into the minds of those that pirate, doesn't help either.
Is BG:EE strict DRM. It's nothing compared to what is out there, but that doesn't matter to some people. DRM is DRM. They want the game they paid money for. They want it WHEN they want it, HOW they want it. If you can't deliver them that, they will find someone who can (torrent sites). If Assassin's Creed II came out with terrible DRM (which it did), and was sold for $50. Then, a cracker took Assassin's Creed II and cracked the DRM, and released it for $50, I guarantee you people would buy it from them. Sometimes, it's not about the money or "being cheap." Well, I'm not that familiar with going out and finding cracks for games EXCEPT from a long time ago when I went for the No-CD ones for Baldur's Gate and such.
Still doesn't matter - it's still illegal to have it, and it still could take functionality of the game from me with the lack of Online play. No-CD cracks as far as I know have never done this. No-CD cracks also grab no attention from the industry. And now with how some programs work, you can simply "mount" the ISOs - no need for No-CD cracks anyway. That still doesn't prove they are cheap. You think people download Assassin's Creed because they are cheap, or because they don't want a rootkit on their machine? I would say some people do it because they are cheap, others strictly because of DRM. I wouldn't say DRM is ALWAYS an excuse for the cheap.
It's also because some consumers think it is a terrible idea and don't want to bend over and just take it.
So, "don't pirate" you say?
Yeah, and then the industry is going to think DRM actually works and start using it more, and more, and more, and more. I think the point is to show them just how pointless DRM is. Then MAYBE they will learn the errors of their ways. How do you do that without pirating? I don't think you can. If you can come up with a better way, I'm all for it.
You might say, "vote with your wallet - don't purchase the game!" Ok, but if the industry thinks DRM actually works, then ALL games are going to have it. If you don't purchase the game, then you aren't playing any games anymore. If everyone stops buying games, then the industry fails. And, IF there are those companies that come out against DRM as well and release a game without it, if it sucks, people aren't going to spend their money on it. The loop continues - the sales are low because it, according to the game industry, didn't have DRM.
And, while we are on that, no one can actually prove pirating has a negative impact on sales. My point is that different people have different morals, and therefore they will justify it in their own mind. That is all that matters. You have to combat this justification that people do.
This goes back to my example of murder. People justify it, and it still happens. I think murder is far worse than pirating, so if people can justify it, they can justify downloading a game. So, Avatar, which was one of the most pirated movies when it come out, didn't have good sales? Again, there is NO proof that piracy hurts sales. This is because you can't prove each download is a person that would have purchased the game. Why can't you prove it? Because it's not true.
I completely understand rating the product as a whole and I agree. People are entitled to their opinions. However, you seem to be under the impression that you get to determine the price of what you bought. I suppose in a certain respect you could try to haggle with the seller, but if they're not willing to budge, you don't deserve a penny. If you bought this game, you knew what you were getting (DRM and all) and you're perfectly able and permitted to complain about it, but you have no right to any money back for something you knew you were getting. While it's true that your labor involved in cracking the software is worth something (to you), nobody ever represented to you that you would be compensated for that and it's not a feature that's missing. It's part of the product as a whole, as you wrote. It's somewhat of an illusion of entitlement, this argument. You're not entitled to anything other than what the company promised.
When I made this comment, I wasn't making it because that's truly how I felt. I wasn't making it because I truly felt it was logical for the company to give me money for having to crack their game.
I don't know how to explain it any better than I did. I'm sort of exaggerating a bit with those words. It's doesn't make any sense AT ALL for the company to give the game to me cheaper than anyone else, and I wouldn't expect them to. Yes, it is their product, they put it out there for a price.
This came up because someone said I should buy the game and then crack it to make it the product I want. My point is that I'm not up for paying full price so I can spend my time cracking the game (or, even downloading a crack, whatever - it's still illegal). Also, by cracking, I'm most likely losing online functionality. So, why should I be expected to pay the same price as everyone else for a product I DON'T want (as a whole - I want the game, but I don't' want the DRM), and a product that has less functionality? I shouldn't be expected to do that. Neither should pirates who use "DRM as an excuse." They shouldn't be expected to do this anymore than the company should be expected to lower their prices to make up for the work and loss of functionality that those specific consumers will have to do.
Again, I'm not saying I deserve money off. I'm trying to make a point that it's ludicrous to expect anyone to pay full price for something that they have to put their own time into to still not get the product they really want (they want the DRM gone, not the online functionality). True. I never made a no-CD crack before. They have always been readily available, and since I purchased the game, I would be willing to pour in about 3 more seconds of time to get it perfectly how I want it. Bypassing authentication though is another matter. I don't know if I can get these on their own, or if I have to download the entire game? Either way, I'm pretty sure online functionality is lost.
People are trying to comment on every little thing I say instead of looking at the point I'm trying to make.
Again, you are making broad assumptions. I don't disagree with you - those things definitely happen. Many of those things have ALWAYS happened though (loaning out games, copying it for friends, etc.). Some people, like you (sorry if I'm being harsh), look at ONLY the POSSIBLE negatives. And, maybe I look at it too much from the positive angle. But, look at how much the game industry has grown. Many people have been made into gamers by their friends giving them copies of Baldur's Gate to play. Those games sold a TON of copies, so many, that there is a remake being made of it. How many games are there remakes to (and don't say Call of Duty, it's technically a new game I suppose
What if someone had Vista and was thinking about going over to a Mac? Instead though, I told them about how great Windows 7 is, and installed a crack version on their machine. Guess what happens when Windows 8 comes out? They purchase it. I just saved Microsoft a customer - someone who possibly was going to switch over to a Mac.
Point is, piracy has so many effects, and so many things are connected, that we can never truly see the value or lack of value that piracy provides. Again, you can't prove it hurts the industry. I can't prove it helps. We all have small examples of how it has helped though, and also how it has hurt. The truth is that it will ALWAYS be around, so don't be giving people extra excuses to do it. Laws are made by people. People are swayed by money. Not all laws are great laws. People therefore don't agree with all laws. And, with any law/morals, people can find ways justifying them breaking it. Take that justification away.
Not everyone offers demos. If you want to take that off the list of why people pirate, then you need to offer them a demo. It's not hard, so just do it. No, there is no entitlement. But, it's not about entitlement - it's about "why do people pirate." Answer - they justify it to themselves. "How do we stop pirating?" - well, it's been around forever, and you can't completely. You can see HOW people justify it and attack it from those angles though. One is, "try before you buy." No entitlement, but if companies want to take the steps to reduce piracy, that's one they can do.
Maybe your point is that some people feel like they have that entitlement? Well, you aren't going to change their minds by saying they don't. You can only cater to those customers. Again, if they can justify it being a moral decision in their mind, then it's fine for them to do it. Legally, it doesn't justify theft...but it does in their minds, and that's all that matters. That's what you have to combat.
I'll go back to the cheap argument again here, one more time. Give $50 million to everyone who says they pirate games because they don't have the money, and see what happens. I bet they will all start buying them.
Is this possible or practical? No, this is a hypothetical situation/test. I think this works in the open market. If there are 200000 billion gallons of gas sitting and waiting to be used, but consumption is only 20 gallons a day, then prices will be REALLY low and value has been destroyed.
People still love legally purchasing LEGAL items. So again, why don't they? I've listed several reasons before. Attack these reasons.
I'll go back to Avengers. It was highly pirated before the movie even came out. Ticket prices didn't decrease though, did they? The movie still make over 1 billion worldwide.
I actually think if there were 1 million fake paintings of something famous and valuable from 5,000 years ago, and I had the only REAL one, the value of that would be crazy high. I went a little off topic with this. But, as just a quick example:
When Whitney Houston died, prices of her album immediately shot up on iTunes. Why?
Because demand was higher, and supply would be ate up quickly? No, because this was a digital download of an album. There are NO supply limits. It was greed. People didn't like it, and I'm sure some turned to downloading.
Don't insult the people who actually want to give you money. It's not good business.
Then again, perhaps Apple is just a greedy high-priced overrated corporation
It's a shame you consider it an insult to have DRM on a product. I don't see why you should feel that way. Do you feel insulted because you go to your friends' house and his doors are locked? Neither person is assuming you're personally a thief; they're just protecting their stuff.
I see what you are saying, but it's a strange analogy. If I called up my friend and he said he would leave the door unlocked for me, and then I came over and it was locked, then I would be like, "wtf?" So, if I purchase a game thinking I have the ability to play when I want and where I want, and then the DRM restricts this, I still think, "wtf?" If I go to buy the game and I'm told about the DRM, about how it could possibly restrict me for accessing it in 2 years, in 5 years, or whatever, I'm going to be like, " 'f off."
I'm not paying to get into my friends house. I'm paying for a game.
That being said, I understand the right to protect your stuff. I don't like how this hinders my ability though to possibly enjoy something I paid for in a few years. I still haven't played Oblivion and I bought it 2 years ago. I might not play it for another 3 years, but I know I will eventually do so. I don't want it lingering in the back of my head that I need to hurry up and install this game because I might not be able to when it comes around that I have time.
A final point to make is that companies are there to sell products that serve the customer's needs. You need the customers to survive. You need to listen to what the customers want, instead of cramming down your beliefs and what you want and expecting them to lap it up. It also doesn't help that details on games are so locked up, "proof" that reviewers are paid off has risen, demos aren't offered, games are priced high, DRM does not help the customer's experience in ANY way, games aren't available in every part of the world that wants it (there is a popular Japanese Wii game right now that people are pirating because they won't release it in the states). Give the customers what they want! This doesn't mean free games, but it does mean creating something that they value, that comes with a positive experience, one where they believe they are getting a good deal, and one where the customer feels respected and appreciated.
You know, I don't even remember if I actually deleted any of your comments. Heck, I didn't even ban the duplicate account you made just to have another guy supporting your posts in this topic. So I really don't know what "dirty little tricks" you're talking about.
As for my role as a moderator, you apparently think that while you should be able to post whatever you feel like, I should be gagged and restricted from posting my thoughts. While it is true that moderators need to be careful that their posts don't affect the image of Overhaul/Beamdog, I don't think anything I've posted here (or elsewhere on the boards for that matter) would negatively affect them. More so when I am just a volunteer, I am not a part of Overhaul or Beamdog and I've always been careful to make sure that people know this.
However, if you or anyone else has any complaints concerning my behaviour you are free to send a message to one of the administrators/developers (you can easily find them by clicking "Activity" and checking the all time leaders list, most of the people there are part of the development team). Overhaul is free to remove my moderator status as they see fit if they think that I'm doing more harm than good.
I'll grant that multi-player functionality might be a problem but if you're going online to play multi-player I'm sure you can also connect to the servers to activate your installation anyway, so its a moot point really.
Really? Look at the music industry, or PC gaming, or sales on the PSP console. You can easily see how the increase in the ease of pirating over the years affected sales. Yes, and my point is still that amorality isn't a justification for piracy either. I honestly don't believe that many people pirate a game instead of buying it because of DRM, they just claim that. Avatar had good sales despite piracy, not because of it (which is what you were implying). And of course not every download is a lost sale, but its a safe assumption that some of them are.
If we have the Enhanced Edition installed on multiple computers in our own home, would they be able to play local Multiplayer games like the original game?
I think I saw one of the developers mention that to play a multi-player game you'll need to buy two copies of the game.
@nizhidrhamannit
I'm not going to tolerate insults being posted.
I'm a fascist because I delete comments where you're directly insulting another user?
You are not only fascist, you are a tactless and humorless fascist who underestimates the finesse and refined spirit of some very talented & inspired people who created those characters, along with their lines and the whole Baldur's Gate Saga for that matter...
Just because the insults you use are quotes that doesn't stop them from being insults. They have a proper use in the game, they are not to be used on the forums to insult other users.
I use the term "other users" because I am also a user here and you owe me the same respect that you owe everyone else here.
If you don't want your comments to be deleted then stop insulting people.
1) you are adding another number to the download number, and people will automatically assume it's a lost sale when it isn't.
2) You are still breaking the law, and I bet if I got caught I couldn't get out of it by proving I had a legally purchased version. If I'm going to take the risk, I'm not going ot make the purchase.
Again, not saying I will pirate, just speaking for those on the other side of the street.
Market for Secondhand, vs. DRM. !
About our materialized versions of Baldur Gate ?
-One of the aspects:
-Market for Secondhand, vs. DRM.
" usus, fructus et abusus "
Well, for you that promotes:
Ecological Benefit :
a) Sustainable Development ?,
The Market for Secondhand or DRM Architecture?
Business Model :
b) And the Solidarity Economy ?,
The Market for Secondhand or DRM Architecture?
Rights :
c) And Consumer Rights ?,
The Market for Secondhand or DRM Architecture?
Question :
So what will happen to the thousands, rather millions of Baldur Gate boxed/cd/dvd versions that exist all around the world ?
No one thought how to recycle them with Enhanced Version ?