he's probably still plenty challenging even if you do know the broken combos.
Sitting there reloading five times until COrb hits is quite the challenge indeed.
Anyway, while I agree that prolific immunities are a bad thing, that doesn't mean you should be able to reduce a boss fight to a five-second dice-roll. That's not creative use of game mechanics anymore, that's completely invalidating the entire encounter.
The game mechanic isn't the problem in your example though, it's the abuse of reload.
Either way, so the guy that gets lucky on the first try and kills a dragon in 2 seconds without any effort whatsoever is any better? It's just not a good way for the game to work.
No, it isn't caused by game mechanics. Reload abuse is a choice made by the player and it's available at all times in this game, regardless of Firkraag having death immunity or not.
So then you just roll the dice anyway, and sometimes you get lucky and one-shot a boss. How is that any better? Randomness in small portions, fine, but huge swings like that only make things worse. They never really add any fun in the long run.
Also, the presence of such huge swings greatly increases the temptation for players to go and "abuse" reloads in the first place.
Chromatic Orb gives +6 saving throw benefit for enemies trying to save against it. Against basic enemies like Kobolds you'll probably have like a 65% chance of it doing its effect. That will be less against higher enemies unless you also use Doom and/or Greater Malison.
I think you are vastly overestimating the chances of this spell landing. :P
I suppose its technically 60% in the case of a Kobold. A Kobold has a save vs spell of 19. -6 from that (because its a benefit for the Kobold) is 13. Meaning that as long as he rolls a 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, or 20 he would save against it. For higher level enemies its totally dependent upon the enemy. Someone like Drasus (level 8 fighter at entrance to Cloakwood Mines who has boots of speed) would have to roll a 7 or higher against it (without either Doom or Greater Malison active). With Doom and Greater Malison active (and it is possible to have both by that point with a limited party) his saving throw wouldn't be any better than a Kobolds. BG2 of course is a different story, but I'd hardly expect a level 1 spell like that to remain effective when much higher level spells are being thrown around.
I was just being hyperbolic. I really can't stand this spell. I have never seen it land, not even once, though I obviously haven't used it much. You just couldn't let me correct you again, could you?
Actually the greater problem here is that dragons are a single entity. One-monster fights have always been problematic to set up as a DM. That one monster has to deal with a host of powerful characters who can attack it in different ways. I don't know how many enemies you have to fight in the Firkraag encounter, but there hasn't been a good solution to resolving this logistical problem (4th edition tries to address this with their "solo" monsters, with limited success). Immunities are an obvious choice but reduce the player's fun. Perhaps an entity that has to be killed 3 times before it is truly beaten, resurrecting on the spot? Or an enemy that isn't outright immune, but downgrades the effect to some nasty status ailment or a lot of damage (the way its immune system purges the hostile magic).
Anyway, now I'm getting off-subject. Sometimes the guy who relies on Chromatic Orb gets lucky and has his moment in the sun, and the rest of the time he has to reload his game more often. If someone likes playing that way, well... that's the way they like to play. Some people will make it "fair" by doing no-reload games or solo games or whatnot, but fair is very relative. Chromatic Orb is just something the game designers wrote in to be a very swingy effect with a great potential upside (the enemy dies) but a big downside (+6 save bonus). Perhaps it shouldn't have been included in a game that allows reloads, but we'd have to say the same thing of Nahal's Reckless Dweomer then.
As a DM, you can recover from players making short work of your boss monster. Perhaps the greater challenge was defeating the monster's greatest minions who are returning from a raid, or perhaps what you defeated was a projection/simulacrum/construct of the boss, or the boss may be resurrected for revenge at a later time. Once in a while, I just let the players have their moment in the sun, and it adds verisimilitude to the game and prevents disbelief from being out of suspension: "Yes, the boss can die from Finger of Death, just like you. If you dispel his Death Ward first and remove his magic resistance, etc., then he could fail his saving throw and die."
@LordRumfish Exactly, I think that's very important. I think all creatures in the game world - even bosses - should follow the same rules and internal logic. That means the boss shouldn't just arbitrarily be made immune to effects "just because he's a boss".
Yeah, I don't like this sort of lottery. Either you win instantly and the fight is trivial and boring or it fails and you're disappointed. I agree with @Lord_Tansheron, it greatly increases the tempation to abuse reloads which in my mind is a bad habit. It's not that dragons should arbitrarily be immune, the problem lies with the spell itself. Sucks for most encounters, small chance of being amazing on tough ones but bigger chance of continuing to suck. Not a fun spell for this reason (in my opinion of course).
Regarding reloads: my philosophy is that a good approach to a fight should have a near 100% chance of success. It's fine to reload in order to discover that strategy but reloading and doing the same thing over and over hoping to get lucky is just banging your head against it and you don't learn anything from the victory.
I don't think there's an ideal solution, and if there is one it probably requires an overhaul of some important game mechanics. Again, this is easier to implement in pen-and-paper.
I guess I don't feel it's a particularly cheap tactic because I've had several solo Sorcerer builds that relied heavily on a combination of Greater Malison, Lower Resistance, Pierce Magic, and Finger of Death to take down all sorts of isolated difficult opponents in SoA.
The fact that CO functions like a ridiculously weak little brother of FoD when you hit level 12 doesn't bother me all that much.
Killing him with FoD didn't feel any cheaper to me than using mass Arrows of Biting from an Elven Archer, who plowed through Firkraag a whole lot faster than my Sorcerer ever did. Jaheira using Kachiko's Wakishashi to WIS-drain him to death as party of a frontal assault in a party situation certainly felt far cheaper.
The game mechanic isn't the problem in your example though, it's the abuse of reload.
I think the use of the word 'abuse' in this statement is highly pejorative. The number of times a player chooses to reload is their own choice. And it isn't necessarily a bad thing.
I have always enjoyed Chromatic Orb and not just because the damage it deals has no saving throw (it's true, I swear). In a stroke of extremely good luck for my party my mage in IWD killed Yxunomei with a Chromatic Orb in HoF mode--she failed both her magic resistance and her saving throw, unfortunately for her.
@LordRumfish I've heard others say that Chromatic Orb works differently in PnP. Can you outline the differences?
From my copy of "The Complete Wizard's Handbook" circa 1994 (so it's late into the 2nd edition, around when people call it 2.5):
Chromatic Orb (Alteration, Evocation) Range: 0 Components: V, S, M Duration: Special Casting Time: 1 Area of Effect: One creature Saving Throw: Neg.
This spell causes a 4-inch-diameter sphere to appear in the caster's hand. Within the limits described below, the sphere can appear in a variety of colors; each color indicates a different special power. The caster can hurl the sphere at an opponent up to 30 yards away, providing there are no barriers between the caster and the target. If the target is no more than 10 yards away, the caster's to hit roll is made with a +3 bonus. If the target is 10-20 yards away, the caster's roll is made with a +2 bonus. If the target is 20-30 yards away, the caster's roll is made with a +1 bonus. If the Chromatic Orb misses its target, it dissipates without effect. If the target creature makes a successful saving throw, the Chromatic Orb is also ineffective. Otherwise, the color of the orb determines the amount of damage inflicted and its special power, as summarized on Table 16; details about the special powers are listed below. The caster can create a single orb of any color listed for his level or lower; for instance, a 3rd-level wizard can create an orange, red, or white orb.
Table 16: Chromatic Orb Effects Caster Level Color of Orb Damage Special Power 1st White 1d4 Light 2nd Red 1d6 Heat 3rd Orange 1d8 Fire 4th Yellow 1d10 Blindness 5th Green 1d12 Stinking Cloud 6th Turquoise 2d4 Magnetism 7th Blue 2d8 Paralysis 10th Violet slowed Petrification 12th Black paralysis Death
Light from the orb causes the victim to become surrounded by light to a radius of 20 feet, as if affected by a light spell. The effect lasts for 1 round, during which time the victim makes his attack rolls and saving throws at a -4 penalty, and his AC is penalized by 4. Heat from the orb is intense enough to melt 1 cubic yard of ice. The victim suffers a loss of 1 point of Strength and 1 point of Dexterity (or for victims without these attributes, -1 to hit and 1 penalty to AC) for 1 round. Fire from the orb ignites all combustible materials within 3 feet of the victim. Blindness from the orb causes the victim to become blind as per the spell. The effect lasts for 1 round/level of the caster. Stinking cloud from the orb surrounds the victim in a 5 ft. radius noxious cloud. The victim must save vs. poison or will be reeling and unable to attack until he leaves the area of the vapors. Magnetism from the orb has an effect only if the victim is wearing armor made from iron. The iron armor becomes magically magnetized for 3d4 rounds. Other iron objects within 3 ft. of the caster will stick tight to the magnetized armor; only Dispel Magic or a similar spell can release the stuck items. At the end of the spell's duration, the stuck items are released. Paralysis from the orb causes the victims to become paralyzed for 2d8+4 rounds; a successful save vs. paralyzation halves the number of rounds. Petrification from the orb turns the victim to stone. If the victim successfully saves vs. petrification, he avoids turning to stone and instead is slowed (as per the spell) for 2d4 rounds. Death from the orb causes the victim to die. If the victim successfully saves vs. death magic, he avoids death and instead is paralyzed for 1d4+1 rounds.
The material component for this spell is a gem of the appropriate hue or any diamond. The gem must have a value of at least 50 gp.
@LordRumfish Thanks. It creates an object like MMM? That's really cool, and honestly what I expected when I read the description in BG's manual. The high level effects are really good too; even if you make the save the orb still has an effect so it's not all-or-nothing. I love this version of the spell.
the table is off, Violet is 8th level, and Black is 9th level.
And unlike the BG version, you get to choose which color orb it summons. (I've pretty much got a working PnP version made for my game, I just don't have all the orbs made yet (I only made the first 3 to test it out and make sure it was working properly (including taking 50 gold every time you cast the spell (though I haven't figured out how to make a check to ensure that the party has at least 50 gold first)).
Basically, instead of a save bonus, you have to make a to-hit roll, and then they get a save vs the main effect.
And the Evocation, Alteration school means any specialist can use it, since no one loses both schools.
@ZanathKariashi If you ever make a mod I'd like to try it. It seems like this spell is much better for fighter/mages, bards and other people with better THAC0. Do you have to throw it immediately or can you carry it around?
Comments
Either way, so the guy that gets lucky on the first try and kills a dragon in 2 seconds without any effort whatsoever is any better? It's just not a good way for the game to work.
Also, the presence of such huge swings greatly increases the temptation for players to go and "abuse" reloads in the first place.
Anyway, now I'm getting off-subject. Sometimes the guy who relies on Chromatic Orb gets lucky and has his moment in the sun, and the rest of the time he has to reload his game more often. If someone likes playing that way, well... that's the way they like to play. Some people will make it "fair" by doing no-reload games or solo games or whatnot, but fair is very relative. Chromatic Orb is just something the game designers wrote in to be a very swingy effect with a great potential upside (the enemy dies) but a big downside (+6 save bonus). Perhaps it shouldn't have been included in a game that allows reloads, but we'd have to say the same thing of Nahal's Reckless Dweomer then.
As a DM, you can recover from players making short work of your boss monster. Perhaps the greater challenge was defeating the monster's greatest minions who are returning from a raid, or perhaps what you defeated was a projection/simulacrum/construct of the boss, or the boss may be resurrected for revenge at a later time. Once in a while, I just let the players have their moment in the sun, and it adds verisimilitude to the game and prevents disbelief from being out of suspension: "Yes, the boss can die from Finger of Death, just like you. If you dispel his Death Ward first and remove his magic resistance, etc., then he could fail his saving throw and die."
Regarding reloads: my philosophy is that a good approach to a fight should have a near 100% chance of success. It's fine to reload in order to discover that strategy but reloading and doing the same thing over and over hoping to get lucky is just banging your head against it and you don't learn anything from the victory.
The fact that CO functions like a ridiculously weak little brother of FoD when you hit level 12 doesn't bother me all that much.
Killing him with FoD didn't feel any cheaper to me than using mass Arrows of Biting from an Elven Archer, who plowed through Firkraag a whole lot faster than my Sorcerer ever did. Jaheira using Kachiko's Wakishashi to WIS-drain him to death as party of a frontal assault in a party situation certainly felt far cheaper.
Chromatic Orb (Alteration, Evocation)
Range: 0
Components: V, S, M
Duration: Special
Casting Time: 1
Area of Effect: One creature
Saving Throw: Neg.
This spell causes a 4-inch-diameter sphere to appear in the caster's hand. Within the limits described below, the sphere can appear in a variety of colors; each color indicates a different special power. The caster can hurl the sphere at an opponent up to 30 yards away, providing there are no barriers between the caster and the target. If the target is no more than 10 yards away, the caster's to hit roll is made with a +3 bonus. If the target is 10-20 yards away, the caster's roll is made with a +2 bonus. If the target is 20-30 yards away, the caster's roll is made with a +1 bonus.
If the Chromatic Orb misses its target, it dissipates without effect. If the target creature makes a successful saving throw, the Chromatic Orb is also ineffective. Otherwise, the color of the orb determines the amount of damage inflicted and its special power, as summarized on Table 16; details about the special powers are listed below. The caster can create a single orb of any color listed for his level or lower; for instance, a 3rd-level wizard can create an orange, red, or white orb.
Table 16: Chromatic Orb Effects
Caster Level Color of Orb Damage Special Power
1st White 1d4 Light
2nd Red 1d6 Heat
3rd Orange 1d8 Fire
4th Yellow 1d10 Blindness
5th Green 1d12 Stinking Cloud
6th Turquoise 2d4 Magnetism
7th Blue 2d8 Paralysis
10th Violet slowed Petrification
12th Black paralysis Death
Light from the orb causes the victim to become surrounded by light to a radius of 20 feet, as if affected by a light spell. The effect lasts for 1 round, during which time the victim makes his attack rolls and saving throws at a -4 penalty, and his AC is penalized by 4.
Heat from the orb is intense enough to melt 1 cubic yard of ice. The victim suffers a loss of 1 point of Strength and 1 point of Dexterity (or for victims without these attributes, -1 to hit and 1 penalty to AC) for 1 round.
Fire from the orb ignites all combustible materials within 3 feet of the victim.
Blindness from the orb causes the victim to become blind as per the spell. The effect lasts for 1 round/level of the caster.
Stinking cloud from the orb surrounds the victim in a 5 ft. radius noxious cloud. The victim must save vs. poison or will be reeling and unable to attack until he leaves the area of the vapors.
Magnetism from the orb has an effect only if the victim is wearing armor made from iron. The iron armor becomes magically magnetized for 3d4 rounds. Other iron objects within 3 ft. of the caster will stick tight to the magnetized armor; only Dispel Magic or a similar spell can release the stuck items. At the end of the spell's duration, the stuck items are released.
Paralysis from the orb causes the victims to become paralyzed for 2d8+4 rounds; a successful save vs. paralyzation halves the number of rounds.
Petrification from the orb turns the victim to stone. If the victim successfully saves vs. petrification, he avoids turning to stone and instead is slowed (as per the spell) for 2d4 rounds.
Death from the orb causes the victim to die. If the victim successfully saves vs. death magic, he avoids death and instead is paralyzed for 1d4+1 rounds.
The material component for this spell is a gem of the appropriate hue or any diamond. The gem must have a value of at least 50 gp.
And unlike the BG version, you get to choose which color orb it summons. (I've pretty much got a working PnP version made for my game, I just don't have all the orbs made yet (I only made the first 3 to test it out and make sure it was working properly (including taking 50 gold every time you cast the spell (though I haven't figured out how to make a check to ensure that the party has at least 50 gold first)).
Basically, instead of a save bonus, you have to make a to-hit roll, and then they get a save vs the main effect.
And the Evocation, Alteration school means any specialist can use it, since no one loses both schools.