Saturday spellcaster strategies #6: 1st level spells

XerxesV

Another thread touched on this subject, but I was wondering about a few 1st level spells that I consider to be useless. Can they be used properly to better advantage?

Chill touch: my main problem with this spell is having to use Thaco to make it work. Could a fighter/Mage use this in any scenario to make it better?

Chromatic Orb. This is one spell that sounds good, especially at higher level, but I never get it to work correctly. I just stock up on MM instead. Are there specific enemies when CO is more useful?

Shocking grasp: same problem as chill touch. Is there a good time to use this?


Thanks! In case you were wondering, my game is improving considerably since you started helping me with these questions.

Eudaemonium

Chromatic Orb gets good a higher levels due to the bonus effects it has. This is especially true for Bards in EE, who can get to level 10 - at which time CO begins to cause petrification. It is less useful for mages in EE since you don't get to that spell level.

I always take MM too, though, so I'm largely going on the 'on paper' effects.

recklessheart

Chill Touch and Shocking Grasp are both cool spells, in my opinion. I can't remember if they are particularly powerful, even at lower levels, but I imagine it is these kinds of spells that I would employ if I ever created a Fighter/Mage.

Chromatic Orb is a perfectly withstanding 1st level spell. At around level 5-7 (not sure when), it begins to paralyze enemies that it hits successfully. A Mage with the Evermemory ring should memorise multiple Chromatic Orbs and multiple Magic Missiles, using Magic Missile to deal quick, guaranteed damage in a tight spot or to take down fringe threats in big encounters, and attempting to disable heavy-hitting foes (ogres, enemy fighters etc.) who pose a particular threat to the groups frontliners. Chromatic Orb can't be guaranteed to work, but in the early game enemies do not have stellar saving throws, so you can at least assume a 50% chance of success

Bercon

Chromatic Orb also kills trolls in BG2, so no need to get Burning Hands.

elminster

Chromatic Orb gives +6 saving throw benefit for enemies trying to save against it. Against basic enemies like Kobolds you'll have a 60% chance of it doing its effect. That will be less against higher enemies unless you also use Doom and/or Greater Malison.

Edit: Corrected.

Corvino

Doom + Greater Malison mean you've got a net +/- 0 to saves against Chromatic Orb, so you can occasionally 1-shot Dragons with it. Very occasionally. Spook is another non-obviously good level 1 spell due to its scaling save penalty that can make it surprising useful at higher levels.

A number of level 1 spells (Sleep especially) are pretty devestating. Blind can be very effective too. For years I didn't really understand that mages are far better at debuffing and disabling than they are at damage dealing, and loaded up on magic missiles at low levels.

Divine level 1 spells similarly have a number of great bread-and-butter examples. Remove fear is always useful, Cure light wounds is fairly mandatory and Command is just plain broken early on. Sanctuary interestingly allows you to lockpick, find/remove traps and open containers without becoming visible which is great.

Cleric/Illusionists with good wisdom and a ring of wizardry can spam disabling spells all day long, too. I should really play as one of those again.

LordRumfish

XerxesV said:

Another thread touched on this subject, but I was wondering about a few 1st level spells that I consider to be useless. Can they be used properly to better advantage?

Chill touch: my main problem with this spell is having to use Thaco to make it work. Could a fighter/Mage use this in any scenario to make it better?

Chromatic Orb. This is one spell that sounds good, especially at higher level, but I never get it to work correctly. I just stock up on MM instead. Are there specific enemies when CO is more useful?

Shocking grasp: same problem as chill touch. Is there a good time to use this?


Thanks! In case you were wondering, my game is improving considerably since you started helping me with these questions.

I don't always run with Xan, but when I do, I mem up a touch spell.

Y'see, Xan can't cast Magic Missile, so mostly I make up with Larloch's Minor Drain (caster interruption), Charm Person, a debuff perhaps like Blindness, maybe a copy of Grease for encounter control, and one touch spell in case something gets too close for comfort. Chill Touch is probably superior to Shocking Grasp because Shocking Grasp is one-and-done, if you miss it's just gone. However, on the rare occasion that Xan lands a Shocking Grasp, it brings a smile to my face.

I haven't tried a fighter/mage touch build, but I would relish the challenge... and it WOULD be a challenge.

Chromatic Orb seems gimmicky to me, although I admit it would be fun to go around petrifying things with a bard in BG:EE.

Corvino

Chromatic orb is actually pretty good when cast by Avengers. They level up quickly and get the entire petrification thing, same as bards by the BG1 level cap. They're a strange beast and play more similarly to a mage than a druid.

XerxesV

LordRumfish said:

XerxesV said:

Another thread touched on this subject, but I was wondering about a few 1st level spells that I consider to be useless. Can they be used properly to better advantage?

Chill touch: my main problem with this spell is having to use Thaco to make it work. Could a fighter/Mage use this in any scenario to make it better?

Chromatic Orb. This is one spell that sounds good, especially at higher level, but I never get it to work correctly. I just stock up on MM instead. Are there specific enemies when CO is more useful?

Shocking grasp: same problem as chill touch. Is there a good time to use this?


Thanks! In case you were wondering, my game is improving considerably since you started helping me with these questions.

I don't always run with Xan, but when I do, I mem up a touch spell.

Y'see, Xan can't cast Magic Missile, so mostly I make up with Larloch's Minor Drain (caster interruption), Charm Person, a debuff perhaps like Blindness, maybe a copy of Grease for encounter control, and one touch spell in case something gets too close for comfort. Chill Touch is probably superior to Shocking Grasp because Shocking Grasp is one-and-done, if you miss it's just gone. However, on the rare occasion that Xan lands a Shocking Grasp, it brings a smile to my face.

I haven't tried a fighter/mage touch build, but I would relish the challenge... and it WOULD be a challenge.

Chromatic Orb seems gimmicky to me, although I admit it would be fun to go around petrifying things with a bard in BG:EE.

You know what would be fun? A no-magic missile no-fireball game. I could experiment with other spells instead of spamming my way through. Xan is a good choice. Thanks!

nano

Chill Touch can be good early on since it creates a weapon for your mage to use, and they can hit a lot easier with that than with a real weapon. Unfortunately it requires melee and it's been fixed/nerfed in BGEE so it's more niche than good.

Shocking Grasp can do more damage than magic missile in some situations, which means it could have some use. That said, I don't think I've ever wished I had one instead of a magic missile.

I don't like Chromatic Orb but I'll admit that's because it's competing in the category of "good" spells, not the Special Olympics of Shocking Grasp and Infravision. If you want a powerful save-or-else, Spook and Blindness are where it's at (Sleep at low levels) and if you want damage, Magic Missile is your man. It does instakill stuff at high levels which is never a bad thing but my counterpoint is this: if you've broken through all the spell defenses of your enemy and lowered his saves to the point that you can make a +6 spell stick, then just about anything else will work. Sure, it won't kill them immediately, but the fight is already won and it doesn't really matter if they die this round or a couple rounds later because they're no longer a threat.

Cowled_wizard

But then again, chill touch needs an attack roll and a save... why not just use the sword?

First lvl for xan: chromatic, charm , image? (if you use him in melee) , grease, identify

Btw: xan cant use evocation is it? so no fireball or magic missile or delayed fireball... not so bad (use skull trap), but no spell sequencer, spell triger is TERRIBLE

Corvino

You can happily use Xan as a buff/debuff machine with a wand of fire if you want to sling fireballs. Losing Evocation isn't as big as a lot of people think.

LordRumfish

Isn't Chromatic Orb an evocation as well?

[Deleted User]

Cowled_wizard said:

Btw: xan cant use evocation is it? so no fireball or magic missile or delayed fireball... not so bad (use skull trap), but no spell sequencer, spell triger is TERRIBLE

Aside from @Corvino's point about wands, there's also the fact that most of the spell triggers and sequencers aren't available in BG1. While you can get a scroll of Minor Sequencer, it's not a particularly useful spell when you only have a couple of 4th level spell slots, which I'd rather fill with Emotion, Greater Malison, and Stoneskin. Now, if Xan were around in BG2, his inability to use sequencers, triggers, and contingencies would be a notable disadvantage.

The problem with Chill Touch is that the spellcasters who want to be in melee (mainly multiclass) can just equip a weapon and end up with better damage.

Kaltzor

I consider Chromatic Orb to be just as good as Magic Missile, the added effects on most levels make up for the lost damage compared to magic missile... And late game unless I'm mistaken, it straight out kills unless they save vs. spell where Magic Missile is capped at 5 1d4+1 damage attacks which while still hurts random enemies, doesn't matter too much...

The touch spells, requiring a successful hit is really a downside on them, and I don't know if even with a fighter/mage they count as any profiency, so high strength is really needed to make good use of them most likely...

Corvino

One of the best things about Magic Missile is that each missile checks magic resistance separately.

Let's say an enemy has 60% magic resistance, for example. Your Chromatic Orb has a 60% chance to do no damage at all, and a 40% chance to do full damage. Your Magic Missile will check individually for each missile, so you're likely to do *some* damage with every casting. It means you've got some a consistent way to do damage against high MR foes, as well as strip away mirror images at low level.

AstroBryGuy

Corvino said:

One of the best things about Magic Missile is that each missile checks magic resistance separately.

Let's say an enemy has 60% magic resistance, for example. Your Chromatic Orb has a 60% chance to do no damage at all, and a 40% chance to do full damage. Your Magic Missile will check individually for each missile, so you're likely to do *some* damage with every casting. It means you've got some a consistent way to do damage against high MR foes, as well as strip away mirror images at low level.

Yeah, but if that enemy was smart enough to cast Shield, your MM is useless. That's why I always have my casters memorize a few Chromatic Orbs. If I see that "Joe Mage: Shielded" in the log, time to switch to Chromatic Orb for spell disruption.

elminster

LordRumfish said:

Isn't Chromatic Orb an evocation as well?

Yes it is. So you can't use it with Xan (referring to Cowled_Wizard's suggestion).

Kaltzor said:

I consider Chromatic Orb to be just as good as Magic Missile, the added effects on most levels make up for the lost damage compared to magic missile... And late game unless I'm mistaken, it straight out kills unless they save vs. spell where Magic Missile is capped at 5 1d4+1 damage attacks which while still hurts random enemies, doesn't matter too much...

The touch spells, requiring a successful hit is really a downside on them, and I don't know if even with a fighter/mage they count as any profiency, so high strength is really needed to make good use of them most likely...

In BGEE at the highest character levels Chromatic Orb would (for a mage) do 1-10 damage and potentially paralyze. For a bard or Avenger it would do 1-12 damage and potentially turn an enemy to stone.

It has a good chance of working against weaker enemies but those same enemies would probably be outright killed by a higher level magic missile casting. Five 1d4+1 attacks = 10 - 25 damage. Personally I don't generally use either spell much anymore, but to each their own.

Touch/weapon creating spells should have been fixed so that the mage is considered having proficiency during the attack. Having higher strength would still be a good idea.

XerxesV

Touch/weapon creating spells should have been fixed so that the mage is considered having proficiency during the attack. Having higher strength would still be a good idea.

It would be nice if they improved with levels like so many other 1st level spells. A level 20 Mage ought to do at least as much damage with shocking grasp as they can with lightning bolt; especially since it's concentrated on one person. Maybe it should include a bonus chance to paralyze or slow the enemy afterwards.

Oh well, they can't rewrite every spell. I'd love to see BG3 incorporate quickened and maximized spells. That would make these more versatile.

PugPug

3.5e improved the touch spells by creating the melee (and ranged) touch attack, which ignores armor, so targets only get the benefit of dexterity/dodge/various magical effects to AC.

I thought I read somewhere that these spells, in Baldur's Gate, have an unwritten THAC0 bonus to sort of make up for it.

As for Chromatic Orb, it is not worth using a 4th-level spell and a 1st-level priest spell, even if we pretend for a moment that that would make it land.

elminster said:

Chromatic Orb gives +6 saving throw benefit for enemies trying to save against it. Against basic enemies like Kobolds you'll probably have like a 65% chance of it doing its effect. That will be less against higher enemies unless you also use Doom and/or Greater Malison.

I think you are vastly overestimating the chances of this spell landing. :P

elminster

PugPug said:

elminster said:

Chromatic Orb gives +6 saving throw benefit for enemies trying to save against it. Against basic enemies like Kobolds you'll probably have like a 65% chance of it doing its effect. That will be less against higher enemies unless you also use Doom and/or Greater Malison.

I think you are vastly overestimating the chances of this spell landing. :P

I suppose its technically 60% in the case of a Kobold. A Kobold has a save vs spell of 19. -6 from that (because its a benefit for the Kobold) is 13. Meaning that as long as he rolls a 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, or 20 he would save against it. For higher level enemies its totally dependent upon the enemy. Someone like Drasus (level 8 fighter at entrance to Cloakwood Mines who has boots of speed) would have to roll a 7 or higher against it (without either Doom or Greater Malison active). With Doom and Greater Malison active (and it is possible to have both by that point with a limited party) his saving throw wouldn't be any better than a Kobolds. BG2 of course is a different story, but I'd hardly expect a level 1 spell like that to remain effective when much higher level spells are being thrown around.

Bercon

8 level Fighter has saving throw vs. spells 13. That means there should still be 30% chance that Chromatic Orb hits with the secondary effect.

LordRumfish

Yeah... hmm... y'know a roughly 1 in 3 chance of an 8th level fighter being turned to stone is pretty nice considering a level 1 spell that is still dealing damage. People have already listed the various strengths of magic missile, but maybe I ought to shake up my spell lineup a bit (usually my fighter-types are dealing so much damage that my spellcasters would be wasting their time trying to debuff, so I usually opt for either quick damage or straight incapacitating effects like Spook, Horror or Emotion: Hopelessness; that last one is also very appropriate for Xan).

Corvino

Give Slow a try. It's AoE, has a save penalty and both reduces the offensive power of affected enemies and makes them easier to hit. Good stuff all the way to TOB.

Lord_Tansheron

For BG1, Sleep and Blind are probably the go-to spells.

For BG2, I rarely if ever use anything other than MM. Enemies will simply save too often for any spell that allows a negating save to be worth memorizing.

One exception (in an unmodded game) is Spook: due to its innate saving-throw penalty, it can hit even enemies with high STs, and fear-effects tend to break AI scripts. Watch Firkraag run around like an idiot, then stand there doing nothing! This is of course fixed by various mods, and for good reason.

I suppose you could pick Spook even with mods and roll the dice on the CC, but I prefer to limit the random factors as much as possible. And besides, damage is king anyway, isn't it?

wampa

Bercon said:

Chromatic Orb also kills trolls in BG2, so no need to get Burning Hands.

Killing trolls is the primary use of Orb in BG2. While even a small chance to auto-kill a tough enemy is nice, it is worth pointing out that in BG2, many tough enemies are are immune to low-level spells - either via magical protections or innate immunities. Several tough boss enemies are also immune to instant-death effects. Other tough enemies include magic-resistant groups (mind flayers, drow), where lowering individual magic resistances is rarely an optimal strategy.

One EXTREMELY notable exception, however, is Firkraag. His saving throw vs spells sits at a natural 6 and he has magic resistance, but he isn't immune to instant-death effects and aside from his natural MR, he has no real spell defenses. His Save v Spells is also a rather-high 6. With a pre-emptive pair of Lower Resistances and GM/Doom combination, every Orb you toss has a ~30% chance of instant-killing him. If you're encountering him at a low level, this is probably actually one of the easier ways to take him down (barring cheese tactics like mass traps/CK spam)

I believe the same tactics may work against the other Dragons in BG2, but I haven't looked into their stats.

Lord_Tansheron

wampa said:

With a pre-emptive pair of Lower Resistances and GM/Doom combination, every Orb you toss has a ~30% chance of instant-killing him. If you're encountering him at a low level, this is probably actually one of the easier ways to take him down (barring cheese tactics like mass traps/CK spam)

Are you implying that getting lucky on a COrb against a dragon is *not* a cheese tactic? >_>

I think it's pretty safe to assume Firkraag (or any dragon) not being immune to insta-death is an oversight, not an intended feature.

[Deleted User]

Lord_Tansheron said:

Are you implying that getting lucky on a COrb against a dragon is *not* a cheese tactic? >_>

I think it's pretty safe to assume Firkraag (or any dragon) not being immune to insta-death is an oversight, not an intended feature.

That's just a problem with insta-death effects in CRPGs in general. At best they're like an easter egg in that they serve as a hidden "I win" button against certain bosses (as with Firkraag or the Vanish/Doom trick in Final Fantasy 6). At worse they're worthless to the player because they don't work on anyone important and have to be constantly guarded against.

LordRumfish

Lord_Tansheron said:

wampa said:

With a pre-emptive pair of Lower Resistances and GM/Doom combination, every Orb you toss has a ~30% chance of instant-killing him. If you're encountering him at a low level, this is probably actually one of the easier ways to take him down (barring cheese tactics like mass traps/CK spam)

Are you implying that getting lucky on a COrb against a dragon is *not* a cheese tactic? >_>

I think it's pretty safe to assume Firkraag (or any dragon) not being immune to insta-death is an oversight, not an intended feature.

I disagree. Sometimes the players must have fun, and that means that sometimes you should be able to Finger of Death something, or Disintegrate it, or Flesh to Stone it. One of my biggest complaints with epic level D&D 3.5 is that everyone, players and monsters included, is immune to everything. Don't bother being an enchanter because mind-affecting won't hit a damn thing, same with illusions since everything and it's brother has true seeing as a constant effect.

So, one or two notably powerful boss-type creatures having holes in their armor could very well be an intentional feature, because otherwise, what's the point of knowing an instant-death spell if there is nothing to cast it on? Also, we should be aware that not everything should be a puzzle only the highest echelons of players can solve. I'm sure Firkraag will mop the floor with people that don't understand the value of contingencies and sequencers, and he's probably still plenty challenging even if you do know the broken combos.

Lord_Tansheron

LordRumfish said:

he's probably still plenty challenging even if you do know the broken combos.

Sitting there reloading five times until COrb hits is quite the challenge indeed.

Anyway, while I agree that prolific immunities are a bad thing, that doesn't mean you should be able to reduce a boss fight to a five-second dice-roll. That's not creative use of game mechanics anymore, that's completely invalidating the entire encounter.

ajwz

Doom + Chromatic orb can be a great minor spell trigger to give to Aerie at the start of bg2