about bards and their songs

element

ok so i've recently decided to play through as a bard and built a couple of characters just because I couldn't decide which variant to play. This got me thinking about the vanilla bard song and how useful it actually is.

in game its description states it has these effects; restores morale to standard value, removes fear and protects from fear. Is this correct I always thought it was supposed to give a luck bonus as well? I was also under the impression it improved as you levelled up.

Assuming this description is accurate is'nt the song actually just pointless?. The effect is ok, but its pretty easily achieved through spells which have the added benefit of not of not removing an entire party member from combat. I cant really imagine many situations were I would be better off relying on the song rather then just casting a spell and using the bard more actively in combat.

Equally, doesn't the poor quality of the song just make the kits better then the vanilla bard in pretty much everyway? the jester has a better song and literally no disadvantages, the skald has an awesome song and bonus to combat skills in exchange for a loss of pickpocketing which is easily circumvented. The blade even gets the same song and fantastic combat advantages at a pretty meaningless loss to pickpocket and lore.

anyway any input on this matter would be welcome

Felspawn

pretty much, there isnt a whole lot of reason to be a vanilla bard

Cowled_wizard

Yup, you wanna sing, go for skald.

element

yeah the skald seems pretty awesome but his in game description really puts me off

Felspawn

Skald isnt worth it considering their one feature is their song and it gets replaced. what they SHOULD have is the ability to sing while fighting. That would have been a clutch ability that falls in line with the inspiration of the class

element

Felspawn said:

Skald isnt worth it considering their one feature is their song and it gets replaced. what they SHOULD have is the ability to sing while fighting. That would have been a clutch ability that falls in line with the inspiration of the class

that would be nice and I think it would be much more fitting

I suppose there is some degree of redundancy but his other bonuses are pretty solid and for a large part of the game the skald song is still good, considering the only loss is pickpocket

Helmino

Felspawn said:

Skald isnt worth it considering their one feature is their song and it gets replaced. what they SHOULD have is the ability to sing while fighting. That would have been a clutch ability that falls in line with the inspiration of the class

You think that isn't moddable?

Felspawn

I'm not a modder, not sure with how it works, couldnt tell you. If there is a mod for that though, i'd love to see it

AstroBryGuy

Helmino said:

Felspawn said:

Skald isnt worth it considering their one feature is their song and it gets replaced. what they SHOULD have is the ability to sing while fighting. That would have been a clutch ability that falls in line with the inspiration of the class

You think that isn't moddable?

I don't think its moddable. Abilities like bard song, stealth, find traps, and turn undead automatically turn off when you engage in combat, cast a spell, etc..

You could mod a replacement bard song that acts like the Lingering Song HLA (i.e., the effects last for a specified duration after you stop singing).


Edit: Whoops! Lingering Song HLA is from the Rogue Rebalancing mod. You play with certain mods so long and you forget what's mod and what's vanilla... :-P

http://readme.spellholdstudios.net/rr_core.html#Bard_High_Level_Ability_revisions

James

Pretty sure the iwdification mod over at g3 adds the bard song scale up from iwd which I rememember being fantastic

KidCarnival

I had that problem with my skald in the NPC Idea topic - I wanted a frontline happy melee bard. My idea to get around the "song stops when attacking" was an ability/day that activates a reduced song while in combat. Maybe that's a possible solution; making a party/area boost ability that copies the effects of the song for a certain duration.

badbromance

I think the "there is no reason to play a vanilla bard" notion is actually poor info.

Obviously the Skald and Blade are both great at what they do however if you don't want to mainly sing to buff as a Skald or be a melee monster Blade or just want full lore/pick pocketing you still have a choice to make.

The Vanilla bard song might not be OP or game breaking but you might not want the Jester song. In that case the vanilla Bard if your best bet.

Disclaimer - I prefer Jester over the Vanilla Bard due to flavour and the ability to cast remove fear as a cleric spell

PugPug

I played the hell out of a Blade, my first BG2 character, and never used the song, really. I used the HLA song a couple of times. You don't need it. It's probably more useful than I considered it to be at the time, but it's not worth fussing over. Just play the game.

KidCarnival

Plus, not all bards are actually singers. Haer'Dalis, for example, is an actor. So if you roleplay a bard that isn't neccessarily a musician, you can take vanilla bard for full lore and pickpockets (which may both be more relevant to your rp background) and just never sing.

element

seems like general consensus is that the vanilla bard song isn't too hot

@kidCarnival that's a good way to look at it I think ill stick with the vanilla bard just for the flavour and see how it goes(i've played blade before) thanks to everyone who replied its appreciated

elminster

I don't use the bard song often but is there a distance requirement for it to work. Or will it work on everyone on the same map?

element

the normal/skald bard song covers the entire map I believe while the jesters is limited to 30 feet

edit: the skald song is also of limited range

ScytheKnight

I really want to like the bard classes... but just the way 2nd Ed handle Bardsong is just... blargh.. horrible. Grew to love the class in 3rd Ed, but despite attempts to, I can't transfer that over to 2nd Ed.

element

yeh I must admit while i've only played the video games, Ive really enjoyed the bards In pretty much ever other title while in baldurs gate they definitely feel a little lack lustre

XerxesV

I think the actual sound effect of the bard song should be replaceable- like with a 2 second sound clip you can customize. A party of dwarves would have war drums, a party of elves could have a harp, a playful party could have a flute... Or you could insert the Metallica riff of your choice. Then I'd actually use it.

XerxesV

Or, functionally, each bard should get two or three songs with different effects. I'd like some variety. Maybe vanilla bards should get 1- morale boost 2-luck boost, 3- Thaco boost. You pick which one to put points in like theif skills.

Eudaemonium

element said:

the normal/skald bard song covers the entire map I believe while the jesters is limited to 30 feet

I'm pretty sure this isn't the case. Or if it is now it wasn't before. When I did my first EE run as a Skald the effect would wear off if the characters got too far from Charname during combat, and the effect would come back if I brought them closer together.

RnRClown

What's the difference between 2nd Ed and 3rd Ed in relation to the Bard?

[Deleted User]

RnRClown said:

What's the difference between 2nd Ed and 3rd Ed in relation to the Bard?

It's been a while since I've looked at the 2e bard rules, but in 3e Bards are allowed to attack (but not cast spells) while singing, as opposed to only being able to sing as BG has it. Also, they introduced a variety of bard songs as you leveled up, allowing you to choose between various beneficial effects.

element

Eudaemonium said:

I'm pretty sure this isn't the case. Or if it is now it wasn't before. When I did my first EE run as a Skald the effect would wear off if the characters got too far from Charname during combat, and the effect would come back if I brought them closer together.

your right the skald song does in fact have a quite limited range good catch

ScytheKnight

3rd Ed bard song is an action that takes a round and then persists over several rounds, increasing with levels and feats. This means they can use their bard song, and then fight or cast spells while the song persists and then take a round to use it again when it runs out. I think it's a use once per day, per bard level plus some feats add extra uses.

They can wear light armor and cast spells. Seperate spell list focusing mainly around healing, buffs and debuffs, with some direct damage. Also easily able to make use of Finesse fighting to be more effective in melee combat while keeping AC up and ranged combat.

elminster

element said:

the normal/skald bard song covers the entire map I believe while the jesters is limited to 30 feet

Actually I just checked and the normal bard song gives every party member its effect, regardless of their location.

element

I guess that bard really knows how to project his voice

yeh sorry that's what I meant I wasn't specific enough I guess

cervanntes

I've played Bard through the series three times now -- as vanilla, skald, and blade. All three worked perfectly well. With the skald I did spend a lot more time singing, which is rather boring, but the bonuses from the song are very nice,especially at lower levels or if you have a melee-heavy group. The blade was great for running around cutting things down, but until later in the game it was rather risky business getting into melee regularly. I actually had the most fun with the vanilla bard, simply because he wasn't quite as pigeon-holed into one role (singing buffs or swinging swords). While the vanilla bard song really could use a little something more (like the Luck that was originally supposed to be there), it's still quite useful when Khalid does his Brave Sir Robin thing, or when casters slam the party with fear spells. I've found the vanilla bard song very nice for getting everyone back under control quickly and efficiently. I don't have quite the problem with panicked NPCs running outside the AOE of the remove fear when using the song as I do with the spells. It's quicker, cleaner, and saves a spell slot for something else.

In other words, I like them all, and each has their own niche and play style.

Aeschylus

Jesters ftw

AstroBryGuy

Kaigen said:

RnRClown said:

What's the difference between 2nd Ed and 3rd Ed in relation to the Bard?

It's been a while since I've looked at the 2e bard rules, but in 3e Bards are allowed to attack (but not cast spells) while singing, as opposed to only being able to sing as BG has it. Also, they introduced a variety of bard songs as you leveled up, allowing you to choose between various beneficial effects.

Well, there is a difference between how bard song is implemented in Baldur's Gate and how it is implemented in AD&D 2E. In 2E, the bard takes 3 rounds to "cast", and then lasts for 1 round per level of the bard. Also, in 2E, a bard chose what the effect of his/her bard song would be: +1 to attack rolls, +1 saving throws, or +2 to morale checks.

A bard can also sing a counter-song in 2E to ward off magical commands or suggestions (e.g., sirine singing). The counter-song works differently that the regular bard song, in that it must be continually played to be effective.