But honestly... you guys don't find Dorn physically appealing? I find him RAVASHING!!!
Dorn is damn sexy, but what really tips me over is that voice of his... So deep. So powerful. I'd argue his high Charisma stems solely from his voice-actor's talent. XD
While I completely prefer the charisma-is-force-of-personality interpretation, in BG specifically, that idea isn't really supported, with reaction modifier pretty much being how much people like you, and it going down for low reputations.
Another thing people should consider about Dorn: the ladies of his old crew couldn't get enough of him. He also managed to cement himself a role in a group of fairly hardcore, evil racists.
He manages to appeal to a great many players too. How many people here hate Dorn and will never include him in their party?
As already mentioned, it's Xan and Faldorn whose personalities don't really match their charisma scores.
On the topic of Charisma; Also compare it to, say, Edwin who is far more powerful than Dorn in later BG2 (simply by virtue of being a Wizard and the best one in the game at that) but nobody takes his seriously because he's a pompous windbag who easily gets outwitted by almost everyone and spends more time muttering threats than actually menacing anyone.
Likewise, his charisma is a mere 10. Dorn just needs to stand and sneer to have people cowering before him, and so his charisma is a good 6pts higher.
I actually think Edwin's Charisma should have been lower by how he is portrayed.
Dorn is extremely charismatic though. Charisma is a necessary thing for leadership, as it is the ability to make others do what you tell them to. Dorn intimidates, Keldorn convinces.
Personally, I don't think that Dorn's in-game behaviour fits very well with his high charisma. From the PHB:
"The Charisma score measures a character's persuasiveness, personal magnetism and ability to lead. It is not a reflection of physical attractiveness, although attractiveness certainly plays a role".
Dorn displays none of these traits. He has pretty much no ability to persuade people of his point of view - he can't even convice the woman in Nashkel to give him the information he needs, despite his size and threatening appearance.
He inspires no loyalty in those around him - his last group betrayed him and left him for dead. And he doesn't strike me as having any leadership potential.
His looks and voice are about the only things bringing him up to even an average charisma.
The less human a creature is, the less it's abilities work by human standards and the more they become simply mechanical devices. Things like mimics, demons, mind-flayers, or aboleths usually have very high mental stats.
@karnor00 An evil mercenary group needed a scapegoat for a genocide, so they threw it onto the biggest's and meanest's shoulders and stole off into the night.
Note that Dorn says that she fled in terror from Dorn, she did not stand up and say no towards him.
It does not matter that he does not inspire loyalty in the people around him. Using his pure force of will, and his size, he can force several people to do what he tells them too.
@GemHound I think that if Dorn really had a charisma of 17, the group wouldn't have chosen him as the scapegoat. And anyone who tried suggesting it would have been rejected by the rest of the group.
Forcing people to obey at swordpoint isn't high charisma. High charisma is when they still want to obey you after the sword is gone.
@karnor00 Reason for betrayal is given too in Dorn's conversations: "Is it not obvious? Simmeon feared me." Edit: "While I was awaiting my execution in a Luskan dungeon, I came to understand Simmeon's plan. If the local lords believed they had captured the leader of our group, they would cease their pursuit." Anyways, so, what you are saying, is that a 7 foot tall man the size of the Hulk wearing black full plate armor and a sword as long as your body, carrying himself with a warriors' aura, and having a cold look in his eyes would not make you falter and try to be agreeable with this person or at least flee?
Just throwing this out there as well: Evil is different then good. Good people would attempt to inspire loyalty in others, while evil people would attempt to force it through strength of will. Charisma is a measurement of a person's will, and their ability to lead. Now.
Lets say you have a Chaotic Evil party. What is more likely to hold them together? Is there a person that can persuade "CHAOTIC EVIL" characters from their freedoms and goals? No. Chaotic evil is all about the freedom of the self and stomp on anyone who threatens it. The only type of charismatic leader that could lead such a group, is one that strikes fear into such a group, instead of feelings of friendship.
Dorn is Charismatic because he has an amazing ability to cause fear and respect in any near him, just by being there.
First off, I do believe that Charisma in 2nd edition (and probably in general) is unnecessary BS stat, and the game would be fine without it (proven with their sad attempts to give it significance in 3rd edition by assigning it universal saving throw bonus and requirement for naturally gifted spellcasting, neither of which make any sense whatsoever, but hey, at least it's some kind of use, right? Not really).
Well, there I do disagree. Wisdom already has impact on spells and spell like skills regarding the mind, and a high wisdom might explain why the wise char will not blindly follow the trustworthy kobold shaman and walk over a cliff just because the kobold told charname that there is no danger in that direction. Even though he/she might not shake the spell that fogs his mind because he missed the opportunity to negate the spell before it took hold of his mind, charname has to believe that the illusion is real. But a wise charname might listen to the hollow walls reflecting the sound, might feel the decrease, might smell the moisture, might feel the wind, where there should be none... and break the spell because he/she suddenly understands that what he/she sees cannot be real. So yes, Wisdom should have an impact regarding wether a spell can be successful and even wether the spell could be shaken off before it usually finishes. I do think of it like experience in battle, where you instincts to take cover without apparent reason just might save your beacon, even though it still will smell burned... a lot. ;-)
By the way, this is also why I can imagine a gnome spellcaster with very low wisdom, but high intelligence... The gnome might be a child at heart, but has enough juice in his brain to calculate the exact temperature und timing needed for the fireball-powered coffee machine, even though he will not realise that this might not be one of his/her best ideas...
For Charisma I would say that for a lawful good character to strike at a high charisma charname with a good reputation and nice looks might be eating away much more of the resolve then striking a kobold with a charisma of 1. He might want to quickly finish the task, might not want to unleash the full destructive force... . But then again, it should not really have that much impact once someone decides to actually strike. Since there is no hesistation in the calculations, it's more like a compromise to allow it to effect every time. I would personally put it on saves vs. fear, because someone with a high presence, a high charisma might not be effected as much by the presence of his sworn enemy then someone who doesn't believe in his/her own power.
charisma in BG always seemed a bit messed up to me
look at Edwin he has 10 charisma even though he seems to be pretty unpopular and certainly doesn't really seem to display any real force of personality
Alora on the other hand also has 10 charisma even though she's avoided authorities and prison purely as a result of her character
Id say Dorn is actually ok maybe 16 is a little generous when you compare it to other npcs but I think it isn't way off.
charisma in BG always seemed a bit messed up to me
look at Edwin he has 10 charisma even though he seems to be pretty unpopular and certainly doesn't really seem to display any real force of personality
Alora on the other hand also has 10 charisma even though she's avoided authorities and prison purely as a result of her character
Id say Dorn is actually ok maybe 16 is a little generous when you compare it to other npcs but I think it isn't way off.
Amusing factoid about Edwin, assuming his extra spell-slot is supposed to be a jury-rigged approximation of the special Red Wizard kit: Red Wizards have a minimum Charisma requirement of 14. Edwin is an illegally uncharismatic Red Wizard.
But honestly... you guys don't find Dorn physically appealing? I find him RAVASHING!!!
Dorn is damn sexy, but what really tips me over is that voice of his... So deep. So powerful. I'd argue his high Charisma stems solely from his voice-actor's talent. XD
Don't forget Dorn is based on Trent Oster :-) Chuck Norris creates "facts" about Trent.
And yes, the voice-actor is great. (I actually like all the 3 new voice-actors. Dorn is menacing and powerful, Rasaad calm and enlightened, Neera self-centered and needy.
Concerning the physical appearance of half-orcs, I consider Dorn to be fairly dinky. Oh who am I kidding... clearly Dorn is way more adorable than Aerie and Mazzy put together. Just look at his puppy-eyes for Demogorgon's sake!
Personally, I don't think that Dorn's in-game behaviour fits very well with his high charisma. From the PHB:
"The Charisma score measures a character's persuasiveness, personal magnetism and ability to lead. It is not a reflection of physical attractiveness, although attractiveness certainly plays a role".
Dorn displays none of these traits. He has pretty much no ability to persuade people of his point of view - he can't even convice the woman in Nashkel to give him the information he needs, despite his size and threatening appearance.
He inspires no loyalty in those around him - his last group betrayed him and left him for dead. And he doesn't strike me as having any leadership potential.
His looks and voice are about the only things bringing him up to even an average charisma.
He manages to persuade the offspring of a god to help him in his quest for vengeance, then be allowed to stick around biding his time until he can steel the power for himself, whilst sowing mistrust for other party members...
He manages to persuade the offspring of a god to help him in his quest for vengeance, then be allowed to stick around biding his time until he can steel the power for himself, whilst sowing mistrust for other party members...
Naah, Dorn is has been standing around in the Friendly Arms Inn with nobody talking to him for nearly 3 months. Only activity he has had was one brief excursion near the Nashkel mines where he killed a few people and was told to get lost by the offspring of a god...
SO yea... @Southpaw I don't find Neera's voice "Needy" Aerie's voice is Needy, I find Neera's voice to be more adolescent menacing... if that can even be a proper adjective.
SO yea... Southpaw I don't find Neera's voice "Needy" Aerie's voice is Needy, I find Neera's voice to be more adolescent menacing... if that can even be a proper adjective.
Charisma is more about being able to affect the attitudes of others. A guy who really pisses you off actually has high, not low Charisma. Low Charisma characters would be those who are awkward, easily ignored, or put others to sleep with how boring they are. Charisma is self-confidence and the power to incite others more than being charming and good-looking. Though, people who are charming and/or good-looking usually ALSO have good Charisma. Of course, a mousy librarian who happens to be gorgeous but can't work up the nerve to tell people to be quiet (or, if she does, they don't listen) might have an 8 or lower Charisma.
This more than any other comment showed me a new interpretation of charisma. To think I've been playing AD&D (occasionally) since the 90's and I thought charisma was as I described in the initial post. There's nothing quite like learning an assumption you've made for years is flawed, but I prefer to see it as something to grow with rather than something to get offended by. Thank you for your insight, everyone.
Technically it is bcs Blackguard is a Paladin kit so I guess devs kept the high cha requirement (as someone already pointed out.) RP wise, Ur-Gothoz would not heed the call of some dude with bad attitude and 3 charisma, at least I think.
Anyway, really interesting views on charisma in this thread. Enlightening even.
Comments
As already mentioned, it's Xan and Faldorn whose personalities don't really match their charisma scores.
And I don't mean Rancor.
Also compare it to, say, Edwin who is far more powerful than Dorn in later BG2 (simply by virtue of being a Wizard and the best one in the game at that) but nobody takes his seriously because he's a pompous windbag who easily gets outwitted by almost everyone and spends more time muttering threats than actually menacing anyone.
Likewise, his charisma is a mere 10. Dorn just needs to stand and sneer to have people cowering before him, and so his charisma is a good 6pts higher.
Dorn is extremely charismatic though. Charisma is a necessary thing for leadership, as it is the ability to make others do what you tell them to. Dorn intimidates, Keldorn convinces.
"The Charisma score measures a character's persuasiveness, personal magnetism and ability to lead. It is not a reflection of physical attractiveness, although attractiveness certainly plays a role".
Dorn displays none of these traits. He has pretty much no ability to persuade people of his point of view - he can't even convice the woman in Nashkel to give him the information he needs, despite his size and threatening appearance.
He inspires no loyalty in those around him - his last group betrayed him and left him for dead. And he doesn't strike me as having any leadership potential.
His looks and voice are about the only things bringing him up to even an average charisma.
Note that Dorn says that she fled in terror from Dorn, she did not stand up and say no towards him.
It does not matter that he does not inspire loyalty in the people around him. Using his pure force of will, and his size, he can force several people to do what he tells them too.
Forcing people to obey at swordpoint isn't high charisma. High charisma is when they still want to obey you after the sword is gone.
Reason for betrayal is given too in Dorn's conversations:
"Is it not obvious? Simmeon feared me."
Edit:
"While I was awaiting my execution in a Luskan dungeon, I came to understand Simmeon's plan. If the local lords believed they had captured the leader of our group, they would cease their pursuit."
Anyways, so, what you are saying, is that a 7 foot tall man the size of the Hulk wearing black full plate armor and a sword as long as your body, carrying himself with a warriors' aura, and having a cold look in his eyes would not make you falter and try to be agreeable with this person or at least flee?
Evil is different then good. Good people would attempt to inspire loyalty in others, while evil people would attempt to force it through strength of will.
Charisma is a measurement of a person's will, and their ability to lead. Now.
Lets say you have a Chaotic Evil party. What is more likely to hold them together? Is there a person that can persuade "CHAOTIC EVIL" characters from their freedoms and goals? No. Chaotic evil is all about the freedom of the self and stomp on anyone who threatens it. The only type of charismatic leader that could lead such a group, is one that strikes fear into such a group, instead of feelings of friendship.
Dorn is Charismatic because he has an amazing ability to cause fear and respect in any near him, just by being there.
By the way, this is also why I can imagine a gnome spellcaster with very low wisdom, but high intelligence... The gnome might be a child at heart, but has enough juice in his brain to calculate the exact temperature und timing needed for the fireball-powered coffee machine, even though he will not realise that this might not be one of his/her best ideas...
For Charisma I would say that for a lawful good character to strike at a high charisma charname with a good reputation and nice looks might be eating away much more of the resolve then striking a kobold with a charisma of 1. He might want to quickly finish the task, might not want to unleash the full destructive force... . But then again, it should not really have that much impact once someone decides to actually strike. Since there is no hesistation in the calculations, it's more like a compromise to allow it to effect every time. I would personally put it on saves vs. fear, because someone with a high presence, a high charisma might not be effected as much by the presence of his sworn enemy then someone who doesn't believe in his/her own power.
look at Edwin he has 10 charisma even though he seems to be pretty unpopular and certainly doesn't really seem to display any real force of personality
Alora on the other hand also has 10 charisma even though she's avoided authorities and prison purely as a result of her character
Id say Dorn is actually ok maybe 16 is a little generous when you compare it to other npcs but I think it isn't way off.
charisma seems like the hardest stat to judge really because I't can represent so many different things about the person
1. a special quality conferring extraordinary powers of leadership and the ability to inspire veneration.
2. a personal magnetism that enables an individual to attract or influence people.
3. a divinely conferred gift or power.
I'm seeing nothing in the above concerning physical appearance. Divinely conferred gift or power? I think Dorn has that covered.
Chuck Norris creates "facts" about Trent.
And yes, the voice-actor is great. (I actually like all the 3 new voice-actors. Dorn is menacing and powerful, Rasaad calm and enlightened, Neera self-centered and needy.
Oh who am I kidding... clearly Dorn is way more adorable than Aerie and Mazzy put together. Just look at his puppy-eyes for Demogorgon's sake!
Anyway, really interesting views on charisma in this thread. Enlightening even.
Now move along or i call the flaming fist.