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Why does Dorn Il-Khan have high charisma?

Charisma is based on a combination of charming personality and appearance.
Dorn Il-Khan tells you from your very first conversation that people don't respond well to his "interrogation". When you respond that interrogation may not be the way to go, he says that he isn't so good with "investigation."
His personality is blunt and confrontational, e.g. "BE DIRECT!" He's an asshole when you first meet him in Friendly Arm In.
On top of all that, he's a half-orc, and not one that resembles a human by his portrait.
Based on this information, I'd peg him at 5-7 charisma, 9 tops. How is it that he has 16 charisma, which is close to as high as one can get (with great looks and a magnificent personality)?

I post it in the BGEE bugs forum because his character is written as the antithesis of a charming, alluring, friendly, handsome person.
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Comments

  • NonnahswriterNonnahswriter Member Posts: 2,520
    Sivar said:

    I post it in the BGEE bugs forum because his character is written as the antithesis of a charming, alluring, friendly, handsome person.

    My sorcerer Charname thinks he's a charming, alluring, friendly, handsome person... Of course, this character is also evil so... *cough*

    I look at Charisma like a stat that makes people listen to you. Paladins usually do this because they are--by default--the epitome of righteousness. They are the knights that everyone looks up to, the leaders of nearly all adventuring groups, the agents of faith endowed with special powers by the gods themselves... There's a reason paladins have to have a 17 or 18 in Charisma, because otherwise, they wouldn't make very good leaders or holy agents.

    A character like Dorn doesn't use the fluffy honest, "Oh madam, please, there is no need to reward me, it is my honor to rescue children from a burning orphanage," but that doesn't mean people won't listen to him. That doesn't mean his personality is weak. Dorn just grabs everyone's attention in a different way.

    For example... The LG paladin would politely ask the guards at the castle if he may see the king, and usually, the guards would comply. Dorn would walk up and threaten to slaughter the guards if he doesn't get an audience, in a dark scary voice. Whether or not he succeeds... Well, that's more determined by the courage of the guards, but he's definitely not laughed at or ignored.

    Charisma's not about how many people like you. It's about whether or not you will be noticed by the general public. It's what determines whether you're an average-joe citizen or so much more. And Dorn, well... He's definitely not average.
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,214
    Moved thread to General. Not a bug.
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199

    Sivar said:

    I post it in the BGEE bugs forum because his character is written as the antithesis of a charming, alluring, friendly, handsome person.

    My sorcerer Charname thinks he's a charming, alluring, friendly, handsome person... Of course, this character is also evil so... *cough*
    This. Except in my case change sorcerer to assassin. XD
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Mortianna said:

    When it comes to Charisma, think force of personality rather than mere charm and comeliness. It's the ability to get people to listen to what you have to say and do what you want them to do. Dorn prefers to make his way through fear and intimidation, while Ajantis or Keldorn pursue their goals through inspiring confidence and courage. Even though their methods are different, people follow and defer to them just the same.

    This!
    Charisma is more about being able to affect the attitudes of others. A guy who really pisses you off actually has high, not low Charisma. Low Charisma characters would be those who are awkward, easily ignored, or put others to sleep with how boring they are. Charisma is self-confidence and the power to incite others more than being charming and good-looking. Though, people who are charming and/or good-looking usually ALSO have good Charisma. Of course, a mousy librarian who happens to be gorgeous but can't work up the nerve to tell people to be quiet (or, if she does, they don't listen) might have an 8 or lower Charisma.
  • doomdoomdoomdoomdoomdoom Member Posts: 89
    edited November 2013
    First off, I do believe that Charisma in 2nd edition (and probably in general) is unnecessary BS stat, and the game would be fine without it (proven with their sad attempts to give it significance in 3rd edition by assigning it universal saving throw bonus and requirement for naturally gifted spellcasting, neither of which make any sense whatsoever, but hey, at least it's some kind of use, right? Not really).

    With that said, it can be argued that Charisma isn't at all about being "charming, alluring, friendly, handsome", but rather about leadership and getting your way with others. And it can be argued that Dorn has indeed a way to get what he wants from anyone, the shortest way possible :)
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,582
    As a paladin, Dorn is basically required to have high charisma by his class.

    A better question is, how on earth do Xan and Faldorn have high charisma?
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    Sexy voice?
  • doomdoomdoomdoomdoomdoom Member Posts: 89

    As a paladin, Dorn is basically required to have high charisma by his class.

    Just like Minsc is required to have 14 Wisdom? :)
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited November 2013

    As a paladin, Dorn is basically required to have high charisma by his class.

    A better question is, how on earth do Xan and Faldorn have high charisma?

    In the game Enchanters have to have 16 charisma and Druids have to have 15 charisma. So their stats aren't that unusual.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190

    As a paladin, Dorn is basically required to have high charisma by his class.

    A better question is, how on earth do Xan and Faldorn have high charisma?

    Xan's so depressing that it's infectious. Faldorn converted an entire grove to Shadow Druids.

    First off, I do believe that Charisma in 2nd edition (and probably in general) is unnecessary BS stat, and the game would be fine without it (proven with their sad attempts to give it significance in 3rd edition by assigning it universal saving throw bonus and requirement for naturally gifted spellcasting, neither of which make any sense whatsoever, but hey, at least it's some kind of use, right? Not really).

    With that said, it can be argued that Charisma isn't at all about being "charming, alluring, friendly, handsome", but rather about leadership and getting your way with others. And it can be argued that Dorn has indeed a way to get what he wants from anyone, the shortest way possible :)

    Charisma only provides universal saving throw bonuses for Paladins, Blackguards, and other similar classes.

    Charisma is used for talky-talky skills like Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate in 3E and beyond, and that makes perfect sense.

    Innate casting makes perfect sense for Charisma, as part of being Charismatic is self-actualization. It's one thing to have the innate ability to use magic, but quite another to actually do it and bend the raw forces of the universe to your will.
  • ArktosaArktosa Member Posts: 73
    Don't forget on a black guard or what ever paladin : Charisma determinate the ability to cast spells (Prayers) and interaction with peoples. 18 cha = +4 interaction. What does it do ? I Dont even know myself cause i dont see the difference.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Arktosa said:

    Don't forget on a black guard or what ever paladin : Charisma determinate the ability to cast spells (Prayers) and interaction with peoples. 18 cha = +4 interaction. What does it do ? I Dont even know myself cause i dont see the difference.

    Charisma doesn't have anything to do with spellcasting in Baldur's Gate. Reaction values affect whether certain NPCs will join you.
  • ArktosaArktosa Member Posts: 73
    @Schneidend
    Your right for spell sorry. But I forgot one thing too : Its affect the prices of stores too (Correct me if im wrong again on that one)
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    This whole time I thought charisma was how charming you where! I thought I had 8 charisma, change that to +14, at least. I feel so much better about myself. :-)
  • doomdoomdoomdoomdoomdoom Member Posts: 89
    edited November 2013


    Charisma only provides universal saving throw bonuses for Paladins, Blackguards, and other similar classes.

    So? My point exactly. They come up with a bs stat, make it one of the primary stats for certain classes. Then because it's entirely useless apart from being a requirement, they try to come up with something. Hey, here's some improved saving throws to make you happy about having to waste stat points on this.


    Charisma is used for talky-talky skills like Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate in 3E and beyond, and that makes perfect sense.

    Sure. And of course it makes perfect sense in this case. Wonder why. Maybe because these dialog skills were added for Charisma, not the other way around.
    Personally I'd rather like to see Int/Wis/Dex/Con/Str checks used in dialogs much more instead of all that cruft.


    Innate casting makes perfect sense for Charisma, as part of being Charismatic is self-actualization. It's one thing to have the innate ability to use magic, but quite another to actually do it and bend the raw forces of the universe to your will.

    Meh, I question the concept as a whole. As much as the idea of a dimwit spellcaster may appeal to some people, I think Intelligence should still be the primary stat for any kind of arcane magic use, whether it comes from hard studies or natural talent.
  • etaglocetagloc Member Posts: 349
    AD&A does not have a skill system, so I guess charisma needs to be a substitute for Bluff, diplomacy and intimidate.
    And Dorn does that last one pretty well.
  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    Maybe for half-orc standards, he is as comely as they come? I mean, if you take away the tusks, he's not that bad looking IMO. In terms of being a "charmer" I think he's more of an "interrogator" I could see charisma twisted into being able to intimidate someone to the point where they run, faint, or otherwise spill their guts (or lunch), so honestly I think "CHARISMA" is open to a little bit of subjectivity...

    But honestly... you guys don't find Dorn physically appealing? I find him RAVASHING!!!
  • ghostowlghostowl Member Posts: 171
    I still think he had a low charisma, not only based on what OP said but fear, intimidation =/= charismatic
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    I'm with @Xavioria I think Dorn is sexy. He has that gruff charm about him, without a doubt. They did a killer job on his portrait (thus why I use it on the forums).
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190


    So? My point exactly. They come up with a bs stat, make it one of the primary stats for certain classes. Then because it's entirely useless apart from being a requirement, they try to come up with something. Hey, here's some improved saving throws to make you happy about having to waste stat points on this.

    Confidence in the power your god grants you, the ability to draw more power from your god through self-actualization and force of personality. Other, similar abilities are based on it,
    Sure. And of course it makes perfect sense in this case. Wonder why. Maybe because these dialog skills were added for Charisma, not the other way around.
    Personally I'd rather like to see Int/Wis/Dex/Con/Str checks used in dialogs much more instead of all that cruft.
    Well, unfortunately, none of those stats represent your ability to get people to like you, fear you, or believe your outrageous lies. Charisma does, however.

    Meh, I question the concept as a whole. As much as the idea of a dimwit spellcaster may appeal to some people, I think Intelligence should still be the primary stat for any kind of arcane magic use, whether it comes from hard studies or natural talent.
    A Wizard with natural talent is just a Wizard with a high intelligence, particular feats, etc. A Sorcerer literally approaches arcane magic differently. He doesn't so much cast pre-defined spells as make up spells that are mechanically similar to Wizard spells. Mechanically, of course, he casts the same spells as a Wizard, but there's no formulas or magical theory involved.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    ghostowl said:

    I still think he had a low charisma, not only based on what OP said but fear, intimidation =/= charismatic

    Actually, yes, convincing people you're scary is, in fact, part of what Charisma does.
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    I would do whatever he told me to.
  • MessiMessi Member Posts: 738
    His definitely the most charismatic of the new NPCs to me!
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Another thing people should consider about Dorn: the ladies of his old crew couldn't get enough of him. He also managed to cement himself a role in a group of fairly hardcore, evil racists.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    @Sivar
    Glad to be of service!
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