I feel the same way. I think it's a generational thing. The people who first encountered D&D in the 3rd+ editions seem to regard the 1e/2e system as unnecessarily arcane and antiquated. Those of us who started playing during 1e or 2e don't really see what the big fuss is all about.
I encountered 2E before 3E, and I still find 2E to be a little backwards (although not enough to be bothered by it). I don't actually have any experience with P&P though.
The math of it is simple enough. Attacker's Thaco minus target's AC is what you need to roll on a d20 to hit.
I've found that newcomers to 1e/2e rules are often confused by having to subtract a negative number from a negative number. For example, if a target has a -8 AC and its attacker has a -1 THAC0, then the attacker would need to roll a 7 or higher to hit (-1 minus -8 = 7). 3rd edition has the same concept with adding a negative modifier to one's "to hit" roll, so it's really not that different.
For me the problem is literally having to interpret positive nunbers as negatives. Having +4 to Armour Class shouldn't take 4 away from Armour Class dammit! That's not how maths works!
Well, to be fair, he does have a point. Let's say your character has AC 5. You equip a ring of protection that says "+1 AC bonus". You now have 4 AC. Seeing as how 5+1 ≠ 4, that is quite literally "not how math works".
Of course, I'm not actually saying that it doesn't make sense. All one needs to do is recognize that "bonus" means that the value in question will be improved. Improved - in the context of AC, THAC0, and Saving Throws - means a lower number. Ergo, a "+1 AC bonus" means your AC will be lowered by 1.
@Franpa Think of the item pluses as bonuses and minuses as penalties. Mathematically, you have to apply them according to the situation. So, a Ring of Protection +1 would give reduce your AC by one and give you a +1 bonus on your saving throw roll (although BG just calculates it into your saving throw score, which is why you'll see the modifier applied on your character record). A spell that causes a -2 penalty to AC raises the target's AC by 2. Penalties and bonuses depend on the context.
Just remember that low AC, THAC0, and saves are good. Having high ability scores, skills, and most spell, equipment, and magic item stats are also good.
Well, to be fair, he does have a point. Let's say your character has AC 5. You equip a ring of protection that says "+1 AC bonus". You now have 4 AC. Seeing as how 5+1 ≠ 4, that is quite literally "not how math works".
Of course, I'm not actually saying that it doesn't make sense. All one needs to do is recognize that "bonus" means that the value in question will be improved. Improved - in the context of AC, THAC0, and Saving Throws - means a lower number. Ergo, a "+1 AC bonus" means your AC will be lowered by 1.
I find it easiest to assume AC bonuses apply to an imaginary stat that has the side effect of lowering AC. Like for example, a ring of +4AC I'll imagine applies a +4 buff to evasion, lowering my AC by 4 or some such. You get the idea. (Edit: Alternatively, imagine it impacts a imaginary dice roll, this shoulda been the more obvious example to choose lol)
While you're all here and somewhat interested in this discussion, I'd like to ask about the Record screen:
Ability Bonuses: Are positive numbers for everything except AC, good? Armour Class Modifiers: Again, are positive or negative numbers good? Saving Throws: Are high or low numbers good?
Edit: It seems Mortianna answered some of this already while I was typing this up >.>
Speed Factor (and its spellcasting equivalent, Casting Time) is one other thing I can think of where lower is better.
They both represent where in the round your attack/spell takes place. If your weapon has a speed factor of 7, your attack will take place after 7/10ths of the round has passed. The idea is the same for Casting Time.
In this case it's more obvious as to why lower is better.
They both represent where in the round your attack/spell takes place. If your weapon has a speed factor of 7, your attack will take place after 7/10ths of the round has passed. The idea is the same for Casting Time.
In this case it's more obvious as to why lower is better.
It reminds me of the Action Card system used during battles in Atelier Iris 3.
I think the single biggest issue is that the game is still very much based around dice rolls, yet makes no attempt to expose the dice rolls to the player (At least under default settings). So you end up with stuff happening in particular ways without much of an explanation.
Does BG1 have a combat log? Maybe BG:EE? I think BG2 has one but not 100% certain. Edit: Found it: Have to enable TO-HIT in the Feeback area of the options.
I think the single biggest issue is that the game is still very much based around dice rolls, yet makes no attempt to expose the dice rolls to the player (At least under default settings). So you end up with stuff happening in particular ways without much of an explanation.
Does BG1 have a combat log? Maybe BG:EE? I think BG2 has one but not 100% certain.
I don't know about a permanent log, but you can pull up the die rolls from the "Gameplay" menu. I think its just labeled "show die rolls" or something like that. It just provides the data in the dialogue window.
I think the single biggest issue is that the game is still very much based around dice rolls, yet makes no attempt to expose the dice rolls to the player (At least under default settings). So you end up with stuff happening in particular ways without much of an explanation.
Does BG1 have a combat log? Maybe BG:EE? I think BG2 has one but not 100% certain.
I don't know about a permanent log, but you can pull up the die rolls from the "Gameplay" menu. I think its just labeled "show die rolls" or something like that. It just provides the data in the dialogue window.
It has the rather dubious name "TO-HIT", thanks for pointing out where to look.
It doesn't display everything though. For an attack roll it will only show: "[d20 roll] + [sum of all bonuses and penalties to attack] = [final attack roll]". It doesn't actually show the enemy's AC being factored in, nor the final result being compared to your THAC0.
It also displays saving throws, sort of. IIRC, if the save is successful it just displays "[number]: Save" (or something like that), and if the save is failed it displays nothing.
Edit: on a succesful save it displays "Save vs. [Type]: [Number]"
It doesn't display everything though. For an attack roll it will only show your d20 roll + the sum of all bonuses and penalties to attack. It doesn't actually show the enemy's AC being factored in, nor the final result being compared to your THAC0.
It also displays saving throws, sort of. IIRC, if the save is successful it just displays "[number]: Save" (or something like that), and if the save is failed it displays nothing.
That's kind of lacking... it's better then nothing but still, it could be so much better.
Edit: my friend reminded me that too much info can take away from the RPG aspect of the game, which I suppose is a fair point for not giving too much info.
It doesn't display everything though. For an attack roll it will only show your d20 roll + the sum of all bonuses and penalties to attack. It doesn't actually show the enemy's AC being factored in, nor the final result being compared to your THAC0.
It also displays saving throws, sort of. IIRC, if the save is successful it just displays "[number]: Save" (or something like that), and if the save is failed it displays nothing.
That's kind of lacking... it's better then nothing but still, it could be so much better.
Edit: my friend reminded me that too much info can take away from the RPG aspect of the game, which I suppose is a fair point for not giving too much info.
In most PNP games I've played the DM would never let the player know the data that's missing here. Basically, you get to know the data you have some control over, but not the stuff that's more hidden (opponent's AC, penalties to saves). Of course if you've played a lot you can probably guess a lot of the missing stuff.
In most PNP games I've played the DM would never let the player know the data that's missing here. Basically, you get to know the data you have some control over, but not the stuff that's more hidden (opponent's AC, penalties to saves). Of course if you've played a lot you can probably guess a lot of the missing stuff.
@Franpa It is exactly "how maths works!". Low armor class, and low THAC0 are good things. what I do not like about the newer editions is how at the end of the game you have around 70 AC, and THAC0 is non-existent. I prefer the smaller numbers.
What I mean is that if you have an Armour Class of -8 and you get a Ring of +4 Armour Class, the maths would logically be -8 + 4 which equals -4, yet in this game it equals -12. That is what annoys me, it makes comparing gear stats with each other somewhat of a chore. The THAC0 stuff isn't as bad as this/is easier for me to comprehend on a regular basis (Is there anywhere in the game that tells you the AC of the enemy you're fighting?).
Play enough and it becomes second nature. Its no harder than figuring out the scoring in golf.
And, the AC of the enemy? No DM lets the players see the monsters' stats! :-)
(If you're really curious, just download Near Infinity and take a peek...)
Some more questions: What determines the value of Strength Modifier and Strength Extra Modifier when looking at the stats on the inventory page? (In the box that I think lists your THAC0 and what affects it)
Also, what determines these stats (below)? What are they derived from? Is positive values good or bad? I don't comprehend why they change the way that they do when changing between the 2 weapons.
On Minsc:
Equip ordinary Great Sword and it shows: Strength Modification -1 Strength Extra Modification -1 Proficiencies: -1
Equip Ashideena +2 and it shows: Strength Modification -1 Strength Extra Modification -1 Proficiencies: +2
@Franpa It appears that negatives are good here, Since by looking at it, when you equip Ashideena, you do not have a single proficiency point into warhammers, sword and shield style, single weapon style or two weapon style. This makes you have a penalty of 2. Whereas with the Great Sword, you have 2+2 pips going towards it, so it makes the penalty of 2 become a bonus of -1. I do not think that it can get higher than that for weapon proficiency, but your attacks per round increase with every pip as well. This means that the negative numbers are bonuses to your THAC0.
@Franpa It appears that negatives are good here, Since by looking at it, when you equip Ashideena, you do not have a single proficiency point into warhammers, sword and shield style, single weapon style or two weapon style. Whereas with the Great Sword, you have 2+2 pips going towards it, so it makes the penalty of 2 become a bonus of -1. This means that the negative numbers are bonuses to your THAC0.
And people wonder why this game is confusing ._. (Some positive values add*, some positive values subtract*, some negative values add*, some negative values subtract*... it's MADNESS [*from the well being of your character])
What then is "default" proficiency value when you aren't proficient and you're not using a enchanted item?
Comments
Of course, I'm not actually saying that it doesn't make sense. All one needs to do is recognize that "bonus" means that the value in question will be improved. Improved - in the context of AC, THAC0, and Saving Throws - means a lower number. Ergo, a "+1 AC bonus" means your AC will be lowered by 1.
Just remember that low AC, THAC0, and saves are good. Having high ability scores, skills, and most spell, equipment, and magic item stats are also good.
While you're all here and somewhat interested in this discussion, I'd like to ask about the Record screen:
Ability Bonuses: Are positive numbers for everything except AC, good?
Armour Class Modifiers: Again, are positive or negative numbers good?
Saving Throws: Are high or low numbers good?
Edit: It seems Mortianna answered some of this already while I was typing this up >.>
AC: The Lower the Better
THAC0: The Lower the Better
Everything else I can think of is Higher is Better.
They both represent where in the round your attack/spell takes place. If your weapon has a speed factor of 7, your attack will take place after 7/10ths of the round has passed. The idea is the same for Casting Time.
In this case it's more obvious as to why lower is better.
Edit: It reminds me of the Action Card system used during battles in Atelier Iris 3.
Does BG1 have a combat log? Maybe BG:EE? I think BG2 has one but not 100% certain.
Edit: Found it: Have to enable TO-HIT in the Feeback area of the options.
It doesn't display everything though. For an attack roll it will only show: "[d20 roll] + [sum of all bonuses and penalties to attack] = [final attack roll]". It doesn't actually show the enemy's AC being factored in, nor the final result being compared to your THAC0.
It also displays saving throws, sort of. IIRC, if the save is successful it just displays "[number]: Save" (or something like that), and if the save is failed it displays nothing.
Edit: on a succesful save it displays "Save vs. [Type]: [Number]"
Edit: my friend reminded me that too much info can take away from the RPG aspect of the game, which I suppose is a fair point for not giving too much info.
Of course if you've played a lot you can probably guess a lot of the missing stuff.
And, the AC of the enemy? No DM lets the players see the monsters' stats! :-)
(If you're really curious, just download Near Infinity and take a peek...)
Also, what determines these stats (below)? What are they derived from? Is positive values good or bad? I don't comprehend why they change the way that they do when changing between the 2 weapons.
On Minsc:
Equip ordinary Great Sword and it shows:
Strength Modification -1
Strength Extra Modification -1
Proficiencies: -1
Equip Ashideena +2 and it shows:
Strength Modification -1
Strength Extra Modification -1
Proficiencies: +2
Minsc has +2 2H Sword, +1 Mace, +1 Longbow, +2 2H Style proficiencies
It appears that negatives are good here,
Since by looking at it, when you equip Ashideena, you do not have a single proficiency point into warhammers, sword and shield style, single weapon style or two weapon style. This makes you have a penalty of 2.
Whereas with the Great Sword, you have 2+2 pips going towards it, so it makes the penalty of 2 become a bonus of -1. I do not think that it can get higher than that for weapon proficiency, but your attacks per round increase with every pip as well.
This means that the negative numbers are bonuses to your THAC0.
What then is "default" proficiency value when you aren't proficient and you're not using a enchanted item?
I believe the default penalty is 2 points of THAC0.