Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Dark Dreams of Furiae - a new module for NWN:EE! Buy now
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

BG2:EE - Please add a real thief

124

Comments

  • MoomintrollMoomintroll Member Posts: 1,496
    There is a mod that brings Alora into BG2, I don't think she has any dialogues though :( I've only used it briefly.

  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    @ChrisYul Okay, I may just be clueless here, but how is she not a real thief? She's a single class thief with a Chaotic Good alignment, and a 19 Dex. Is it because she's overly cheerful?

  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    @LadyRhian I loved Alora in BG1. Used her very much, eve in the same party with Safana. I of course kinda made Alora overpowered a bit because I used mods to make Safana a swashbuckler, And AloRa a burglar. The kit I had gotten over at g3 which let the thieves specialize in daggers... Her backstabbing was ferocious.

    As for bg2 however, Alora coming to the stage would add a mix of flavor, because all the upbeat and cheerful npcs are pretty much gone. I could definitely see her and Mazzy getting into weird arguments.

    The only issue I MIGHT have with bringing in bg1 npcs, is the fact that players might want some new content, and remixing in old npcs might be trying on certain players.

  • XzarXzar Member Posts: 215
    We dont need Alora or new good-aligned thief, thank you. Montaron, new evil thief, or at least Skie would be nice, however.

    XavioriaQuartzArchaos
  • MilesBeyondMilesBeyond Member Posts: 324
    Xavioria said:

    @LadyRhian I loved Alora in BG1. Used her very much, eve in the same party with Safana. I of course kinda made Alora overpowered a bit because I used mods to make Safana a swashbuckler, And AloRa a burglar. The kit I had gotten over at g3 which let the thieves specialize in daggers... Her backstabbing was ferocious.

    As for bg2 however, Alora coming to the stage would add a mix of flavor, because all the upbeat and cheerful npcs are pretty much gone. I could definitely see her and Mazzy getting into weird arguments.

    The only issue I MIGHT have with bringing in bg1 npcs, is the fact that players might want some new content, and remixing in old npcs might be trying on certain players.

    Heh, I currently have a game with both Alora and Xan. They have some interesting interactions...

    But, as has been mentioned, an evil thief is needed more than a good one. Of course, neutral might solve both problems.

    We could have an insane, CE thief who's very cheerful all the time. Might make for a funny character. A sort of psychopathic Alora.

  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    @MilesBeyond there actually is a mod for an evil elf assassin for bg2 who is obsessed with lambs. I've never played it so I am unsure of this, but it seems to me like she's kind of like Tira from soul calibur.

  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    LadyRhian said:

    We need another thief in the party. Good-aligned, no less. Alora, maybe?

    Good-aligned? Umm what? No. You already have Imoen and Nalia there. Jan and Yoshi are neutral. Honestly, we probably could use an evil thief, or at least neutral to give people more options. Because as is, you are stuck with a bloody mage/thief no matter what since Yoshimo dies.

    (I like Alora, but meh.)

  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    Actually, the thief is pretty much the furthest from the law when it comes to ethics (not counting mages and cowled wizards) you'd think you would be able to find an evil thief to join you in Athkatla lol

    recklessheart
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 946
    Or we could just have Tiax survive in Spellhold. C/T is a very nice filling class to cover healing/thieving or awesome backstabs.

  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 946
    Corvino said:

    If they were going to cut down a dual-class thief to single class, surely Nalia would be first choice. I don't think any of her dialogue or story is caster specific. In fact, she's referred to much more as a thief than a mage.

    It's more relevant in ToB where she gets new lines and calls herself an Archmage.

  • KholdstareKholdstare Member Posts: 160
    Trent mentioned something about the possibility of a regular thief in BG2:EE over on the AMA, actually. :D

    Quartz
  • Roller12Roller12 Member Posts: 437
    Not to be on the negative side but i would rather see classes which arent yet in the game. Like monks.

    Xavioria
  • SilverstarSilverstar Member Posts: 2,206
    edited August 2012
    Roller12 said:

    Not to be on the negative side but i would rather see classes which arent yet in the game. Like monks.

    The mechanical role of a decent thief is very lacking in BGII though; the damaging roles of sorcerer/barbarian/monk/various kits isn't. Also, seeing as Rasaad, Neera and Dorn will reappear in BGII:EE, monk is allready covered as is 2 kits that previously had no NPC representation.

  • aldainaldain Member Posts: 266
    edited August 2012
    Roller12 said:

    Not to be on the negative side but i would rather see classes which arent yet in the game. Like monks.

    But there are no (non-betraying, and thus dying halfway through SoA) single-classed thieves in BG2. This is what we got in vanilla BG2 (counting Anomen as a Cleric and Imoen/Nalia as mages since that's all they're leveling up in):

    3 mages
    2 Rangers
    2 Fighters
    2 Clerics
    1 Bard
    1 Paladin
    1 Druid
    1 Cleric/Mage
    1 Thief/Mage
    1 Fighter/Druid

    Counting a multiclass as 1/2 of each class (and Haer'Dalis as 1/2 mage 1/2 fighter), this is the sum total:
    4 1/2 mages
    6 fighters
    4 priests
    1/2 thief

    Notice something? We're incredibly light on thieves. Even if we're so generous that we consider Imoen half a thief, we've got four times as many priests, four times as many mages, and six times as many fighters.
    In fact, if you want a thief that can do everything up to and including ToB locks/traps, you either have to take Jan with you ( as Imoen can't hack it in ToB even with the amulet that boosts her skills ) or be a thief yourself. We've essentially got 1/2 a thief in Jan, and that's it!

    Now let's add in the new NPC's from BG:EE. We've got a mage, a fighter with a kit, and a monk. Another mage, two fighters...

    I guess that, given the power of arcane magic in BG2, the original designers wanted to give you lots of choices. Most parties will also have at least 2 fighters to hold the front line. Which is fine. But in the process we get completely axed for choices when it comes to thieves (the only class that is an absolute must have, in my opinion). You can get by without a straight fighter, or mage, or priest.. but no other class can do what the thief does, and getting by without one requires some heavy metagaming in which you apply the right immunities/protections and set off traps, and spend all your L2 slots on Knock.

    I guess that turned into a rant... wasn't really directed at you, Roller12. I'm just trying to make a case for adding a pure-class, un-kitted thief into BG2:EE if/when Overhaul is considering any additional NPC's that should be added. I think the balance of available classes more or less demands it.

    Post edited by aldain on
    Roller12Quartz
  • Roller12Roller12 Member Posts: 437
    No worries im flameresistant, also i tent to agree now. I love thieves too. Guess a pure thief wouldnt hurt. Like an evil assassin. I guess the reason why there so few of them in bg2 is that everyone has dualed them anyway. Safana, Imoen to mages and poor Yoshimo to fighter. In bg1 there are so many of them its annoying.

    Xavioria
  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    Lol, thieves in bg1:

    Imoen
    Montaron
    Coran
    Safana
    Alora
    Tiax
    Skie

    4 of them are pure class.

  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    edited August 2012
    "BG2 needs a good single class thief. Yeah, and she should be cool, not irritating" - Trent Oster on the AMAA.

    Looks like this one may be getting fixed. And the quote, in my mind rules out Alora.

    Quartz
  • Fake_SketchFake_Sketch Member Posts: 217
    edited August 2012
    Could we get evil parties some love at the same time (An evil rogue)?

  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    @Corvino I didn't find Alora irritating. Not any more than any other character.

    Xavioria
  • aldainaldain Member Posts: 266
    Corvino said:

    "BG2 needs a good single class thief. Yeah, and she should be cool, not irritating" - Trent Oster on the AMAA.

    Looks like this one may be getting fixed. And the quote, in my mind rules out Alora.

    Awesome. Simply awesome. I look forward to having a thief that has enough skillpoints to invest in something above and beyond just locks and traps.

  • SneakyDumplingSneakyDumpling Member Posts: 6
    I totally agree, although I love playing as a thief (or fighter thief sometimes) since I can't help but try to loot everything. It would still be nice if when I play multiplayer with my mates I didn't feel like I have to play a thief as they bring so much mandatory utility.

    2 new pure thief npcs would make a great addition to BG II EE. I think an evil assassin kit, and a neutral swashy or bounty hunter would go down nicely. The former because, really the evil one needs to be an assassin and the latter because swashies are awesome and for the people that want a neutral party also deserve some love.

    Not that I ever do, lol.

    Xavioria
  • recklessheartrecklessheart Member Posts: 692
    Personally I've never found the lack of leveling up thieves to be an issue. I've only played through the full game with Jan Jansen once. But Imoen or Nalia can deal with most stuff, provided they are given a ring to boost their points by 20% or so. The game designers never made anything too challenging in that regard, as they were no doubt aware they didn't have a leveling up thief. If they thought it was so traumatic they wuld have rectified it in ToB.
    But yes, a leveling up thief would still be nice, I agree :D
    Neutral or Evil in alignment, I might add! BG2 has plenty of variety in the good-aligned department, and the characters are plenty likeable. They don't need another one!

    Xavioria
  • UnseeyingEyeUnseeyingEye Member Posts: 48
    Personally my favourite class is the thief. I haven't found any game outside of the Infinity Engine games that has done the thief class anywhere near as well, even the NWN series. As such most of my playthroughs (and my playthrough for BG:EE and its sequel) have been/will be with a thief as my main character... a pure class thief. So as such it doesn't really matter to me but I have always known that SOA needs a god damn proper thief.

  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 946
    Single Class unkitted thieves tend to be a bit weak lategame when their THAC0 and HP just don't cut it and they have no magic to suppliment this with.

  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    edited September 2012
    BG2:EE needs an Evil Thief, and a way to bring back Yoshimo. Problem solved.

    If they don't take advantage of the opportunity to fix one of the glaring mechanical issues of BG2, I will erupt with a nerd rage of such magnitude...

    Overhaul must not allow themselves to become every other modder out there, who just KEEP ADDING MORE SPELLCASTERS AND FIGHTERS.

  • aldainaldain Member Posts: 266
    Dazzu said:

    Single Class unkitted thieves tend to be a bit weak lategame when their THAC0 and HP just don't cut it and they have no magic to suppliment this with.

    Weak? Seriously? x5 backstab is deadly, even assuming you're so cheap you didn't have a mage cast Strength on them beforehand. Traps are very powerful against tougher enemies. The thief selection of HLA's is wonderful.

    Thieves aren't meant to be catch-all engines of destructions. They're lockpickers, trap disablers/layers, scouts, with some added oomph in the way of a nice backstab to kill off a key enemy to start every fight.
    I absolutely love having a pure-class thief along for the ride, they're exceptionally useful.

    And since Overhaul are (hopefully) adding one to BG2, pureclass at that, we might even get a Fighter/Thief dualclass. That'd just be all kinds of awesome... I'm envisioning a female human L7 fighter/rest thief with *** dualwield and *** shortsword from the fighter levels. A thing of beauty.

  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    All this being said, Nalia needs:

    A romance
    A different class setup
    And perhaps just a different class.

    Making her a crap Imoen is just silly.

  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 946
    edited September 2012
    aldain said:

    Dazzu said:

    Single Class unkitted thieves tend to be a bit weak lategame when their THAC0 and HP just don't cut it and they have no magic to suppliment this with.

    Weak? Seriously? x5 backstab is deadly, even assuming you're so cheap you didn't have a mage cast Strength on them beforehand. Traps are very powerful against tougher enemies. The thief selection of HLA's is wonderful.

    Thieves aren't meant to be catch-all engines of destructions. They're lockpickers, trap disablers/layers, scouts, with some added oomph in the way of a nice backstab to kill off a key enemy to start every fight.
    I absolutely love having a pure-class thief along for the ride, they're exceptionally useful.

    And since Overhaul are (hopefully) adding one to BG2, pureclass at that, we might even get a Fighter/Thief dualclass. That'd just be all kinds of awesome... I'm envisioning a female human L7 fighter/rest thief with *** dualwield and *** shortsword from the fighter levels. A thing of beauty.
    All that is true, BUT your thief is much stronger with:


    A poisoned weapon and x7 backstab.

    A wider assortment of Bounty traps.

    Swashbuckler durability (at a cost of backstabbing)

    Weapon Specialization, THAC0 and more base attacks per round.

    Divine or arcane magic.


    In short, a Single class unkitted thief isn't useless, but a better word is outclassed.


    F/T, M/T, C/T, F/M/T or a Kit is a better way to thief.

    Xavioria
  • aldainaldain Member Posts: 266
    Dazzu said:


    All that is true, BUT your thief is much stronger with:


    A poisoned weapon and x7 backstab.

    A wider assortment of Bounty traps.

    Swashbuckler durability (at a cost of backstabbing)

    Weapon Specialization, THAC0 and more base attacks per round.

    Divine or arcane magic.


    In short, a Single class unkitted thief isn't useless, but a better word is outclassed.


    F/T, M/T, C/T, F/M/T or a Kit is a better way to thief.

    I'm personally not a fan of either Assassins or Swashbucklers. Assassins get way too few skillpoints to truly be a jack-of-all-trades, and Swashbucklers lack what make Thieves special in meele, the backstab.
    Bounty Hunters are OK I guess, but still, the (slight) lack of skillpoints compared to a pure Thief eventually starts to become noticeable.

    Multiclass thieves I just plain dislike, unless you got 2 of them and they can focus on different things (again, not enough skillpoints). I know that by ToB a multiclass can have acceptable values in most stuff, but I'd like my thief to have a diverse array of skills the entire game, not just the last 10%.

    But as I said above, it'd be neat if we could get a Fighter/Thief dualclass NPC. Maybe it's too powergamey though. Honestly, I'll be happy for any pure Thief, regardless of kit.

    Roller12
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 946
    You really won't run out of skill points if you remember to bring your Shadow Armor/Boots and the Ring that improves thieving skills whose name escapes me.


    Just because you dislike something though doesn't mean it's bad.

Sign In or Register to comment.