I am hereby volunteering my services to help write the dialogue. And give input on his design. Because I'm totally qualified and not because I want a hunky human to romance. I swear.
No worries, and you don't have to tiptoe around me. I am acutely aware I am in the privileged group that is almost always catered too first. I remember similar discussions when BG2 did it's first go round when female gamers bemoaned the fact Anomen was their only option if they wanted a romance at all. I understand your position on the matter, however my thoughts on the subject are at least consistent, I would rather a single romance done well in a game rather than hordes of lacklustre ones. To me it really is just about the quality of the writing.
That said I hadn't really considered that the writing was just bad in Dragon Age 2 romances. After all the game was a bit rushed, we had reused environments all over the place. It felt a lot of corners were cut. I guess its a possibility, I just remember it struck me at the time that the dialogue in the romance was a bit staid and middle of the road, and remember thinking it was written that way so it could conceivably work whichever gender your PC happened to be. It had the whole feeling of Bioware checking boxes, and when an immersive game slips and you see behind the curtain and see how they are clumsily attempting to pull the strings then it kind of kills the romance.
Real people usually don't do that in the face of much bigger problems, for instance abducted sisters, being tortured by same crazy kidnapper or learning they are the spawn of the god of murder. Real people, at least the stable/datable ones sort out their life first.
That is incredibly so not true. In real life, stressful and edge-of-death situations tend to get people humping like rabbits.
Real people usually don't do that in the face of much bigger problems, for instance abducted sisters, being tortured by same crazy kidnapper or learning they are the spawn of the god of murder. Real people, at least the stable/datable ones sort out their life first.
That is incredibly so not true. In real life, stressful and edge-of-death situations tend to get people humping like rabbits.
I can't say the results sound very desirable. Maybe if you're into the troubled-please-fix-me type, or otherwise damaged people, but it doesn't sound like a basis for a lasting, healthy relationship.
See, here is my issue with the BG romances. They are all damaged in some way and charname's love is supposed to fix it. Viconia has to overcome the culture she was raised with. Neera has trouble with her powers. Dorn has trust issues. Jaheira just lost her husband. Aerie lost her wings. Anomen has to overcome his pride and temper. Rasaad was betrayed by his brother. They all have issues to work out with themselves, and while it certainly is easier to overcome these things with friends or family, "love" isn't a shortcut. Especially not if the partner is just as damaged, or even more. Charname is, as I said above.
@KidCarnival: But the trajectory of their storylines has them resolving their issues whether you're romancing them or not - I mean, Anomen can finish his quest and join the Radiant Heart even if your PC is male; Aerie will grow a backbone (especially if you put her and Korgan in the same party and make it to their very last banter, the beauty of which is one of BG2's finest moments); Jaheira's grief for Khalid never goes away, but her subplot with the Harpers happens even if you're not sleeping with her.
Real people usually don't do that in the face of much bigger problems, for instance abducted sisters, being tortured by same crazy kidnapper or learning they are the spawn of the god of murder. Real people, at least the stable/datable ones sort out their life first.
That is incredibly so not true. In real life, stressful and edge-of-death situations tend to get people humping like rabbits.
I can't say the results sound very desirable. Maybe if you're into the troubled-please-fix-me type, or otherwise damaged people, but it doesn't sound like a basis for a lasting, healthy relationship.
See, here is my issue with the BG romances. They are all damaged in some way and charname's love is supposed to fix it. Viconia has to overcome the culture she was raised with. Neera has trouble with her powers. Dorn has trust issues. Jaheira just lost her husband. Aerie lost her wings. Anomen has to overcome his pride and temper. Rasaad was betrayed by his brother. They all have issues to work out with themselves, and while it certainly is easier to overcome these things with friends or family, "love" isn't a shortcut. Especially not if the partner is just as damaged, or even more. Charname is, as I said above.
I just don't see how that is a good idea.
After reading your post @KidCarnival, it seems your problem is more with oft used tropes. The problem is, it is these tropes which make things interesting in fiction, as without any kind of conflict, reading about a relationship can be boring. As some one who has multiple adult visual novels, I can tell you from experience that for a good story, you need a character who has some sort of issue that needs to be resolved, and/or there is a problem with the relationship itself.
No, @KidCarnival certainly has a point when he points out that the NPCs all sort of lean on you to help them out. You can argue that Dorn's trust issues don't factor into the romance, buuuut ... you can tell he's pretty desperate to stay with you because he likes being around you for your power and bloody journey. And you can argue that Neera's trouble with her powers don't factor into the romance, but she totally leans on you to save her ass from the Red Wizards. Oh, and pay money back to a certain halfling.
Now @shawne has a good point that a lot of these points happen even if you're not romancing them. Totally. But you notice no one who's actually got their shit together to some extent actually has interest in you. But these romances sort of play out like dramas, so that's not altogether surprising. A stable relationship would be moderately boring from the player's prospective. "Oh cool, my character got laid again tonight. They both got off too, so that's good. And now they're having a chat about their hobbies. Yeah..."
So what I'm saying is, while @KidCarnival 's point is an excellent observation, these romances are by their very nature a sort of drama that unfolds. Of course they are all broken, some more than others, and lean on CHARNAME. It makes it interesting. Now if you can come up with some sort of RPG romance dynamic that is free of much drama and actually captivating, then by all means become a writer, I'd welcome more variation myself. :P
@Quartz: I mean, the NPCs who need the least help from the main character in RPGs also tend to be the least interesting/least popular ones - look at Cernd, for example, or Jacob Taylor.
Cernd, boring and unfortunate as his entire existance may be, still has serious issues when it comes to relationships. A missed chance, I say.
The problem is that all the romance options are damaged people, and charname is damaged by backstory/default. So basically, the basis for them is:
NPC: Ohai charname, you're cute. Charname: Thanks, so are you. Why don't we couple up? NPC: I don't know, you see, I have this huuuuuge problem... Charname: Oh, how bad can it be? I'm the spawn of the god of murder, just got kidnapped and tortured and my sister was taken to Spellhold. NPC: Pretty bad, actually. My parents were killed by a squirrel, I lost both legs and I'm cursed, so a wyvern follows me around and tries to kill me! Charname: Wow, we have so much in common!
To be somewhat realistic, both sides should go REDFLAGREDFLAGREDFLAG.
And in the end, not every story needs to be a love story. It's simply impossible to cover every player's taste with the options. It is possible to offer some options and that has been done, in my opinion. Nothing "should" be added; modders will get to it soon enough. As it is, the main demands were added - options for shorties and half orcs, same sex, and more options for female charnames. It's also fair that Hexxat is female only; it's making up for years of having only Anomen to turn to.
"Oh cool, my character got laid again tonight. They both got off too, so that's good. And now they're having a chat about their hobbies. Yeah..."
Reminds me of a certain character in one of the visual novels I have. Just about the only interesting thing about doing that character's route was her sex drive was MUCH higher than the protagonist's, which gets old pretty quickly. I seem to remember that route having an ending where the protagonist is about to leave for work and having to risk being late to "service" her so she's kept satisfied. Needless to say, of the visual novels I have, that one ranks pretty low.
Hallucinating thread, really... The OP must really be more than pleased by the results lol... *///
So enlightning too... on the current state of.. oh well, enough, really not worthing it i guess.. but interesting to read... yeah, definitively fearing for BG27 now.. when you really want to please a 10% minority that requires absolute 100% equality in cultural treatments.. don't be surprised to get a totally fuck* up androginy / bi-sexuality everywhere inevitably presented/promoted as THE faked new norm, especially for the youngest players..^^ because that's indeed impossible to please everyone, at that little game...so the only 'pragmatical' thing (aka cheapest to produce..for cheapest industrial producers^), as the other dude said is indeed the 'bisexual' route everywhere, every NPCs...OR exactly the same numbers of straight/lez/gay/bi/trans/etc.. that is of course totally impossible to get... and in the end you of course totally erase the 1/10th minority feeling as wished by that same minority.. pure cultural propaganda of course.. 'isolated' LGBTs and their 'goodie/goodie heterofriendly-always-trying-to-be-nice-with-them-to-be-accepted-too' individuals might naturally not 'get this' (just wish to "bang the hell out of that (sexually fantasized) little NPC if possible - whatever the NPCs own stories and/or cultural own bounds, 'who f*cking cares!'..a thing must be found to make it compatible, np..only solutions..*)) ^^) "..as in the end very well said/admitted by another poet and very bright well formed pro talker on those subjects we all know -or SHOULD know lol.. *)) ..but a good summarize too for such wishes.. *)) ^^) , but lobbies sure have gotten that too... *//
gay/lgbt organized new bigotry lol.. loving to reverse the thing too..always.. the ultimate argument beeing, if you go too far (against the wished trend), you are, you are.. yes, you know what you are, a ***** ... we all know that too nowadays))
when you really want to please a 10% minority that requires absolute 100% equality in cultural treatments..
etccc
gay/lgbt organized new bigotry lol.. loving to reverse the thing too..always.. the ultimate argument beeing, if you go too far (against the wished trend), you are, you are.. yes, you know what you are, a ***** ... we all know that too nowadays))
i'm sorry what? maybe i'm just reading your post wrong, but this all sounds a bit homophobic.
as a gay man, i think changing existing romances from straight to gay or bi or just adding a gay/bi character for the hell of it seems a bit forced. i mean, in real life you (theoretically) could fall for someone who isn't attracted to your gender. so from a role-playing perspective, not being able to romance keldorn makes sense right?
when you really want to please a 10% minority that requires absolute 100% equality in cultural treatments..
I wish people would stop repeating this old fallacy. The gay 10% is not true, it was fabricated by Alfred Kinsey who used bad statistics to come up with that number. The real number is 4% or less for LGBT.
The number is not stable, and the average is 10%, because that is the normal. AKA found in nature as well.
The fact that these people are a minority in numbers, doesn't mean that they only deserve 10% of our rights too. Fail argument is fail.
Homosexuality is nothing spectacular, so stop treating it like a spectacle, or a problem that we should eradicate, because it will never go away. It will always be there, on 10% average.
Hexxat is into women, deal with it.
Her portrait also is lame, i prefer the picture where all the 4 npcs are seen in the start of the game, you should have used that, thought i'd share it with you :P
The number is not stable, and the average is 10%, because that is the normal. AKA found in nature as well.
You have no clue what you're talking about. Please join the 21st century..
Anyone can easily verify this for themself by researching Alfred Kinsey, so don't take my word for it..
One man vs the scientific community of today.
I think i'll take the scientific community.
Bear in mind, gay and bisexuals are sometimes counted together, and also, that average means AVERAGE. It's not the same in all countries, or in all species, but the average is around 10%, give or take.
This is going to sound horrible, but why are both same sex options with evil companions. Well I guess it doesn't' matter since I like Neera better anyway, but still. What message are you trying to send Beamdog? (sarcasm)
Comments
That said I hadn't really considered that the writing was just bad in Dragon Age 2 romances. After all the game was a bit rushed, we had reused environments all over the place. It felt a lot of corners were cut. I guess its a possibility, I just remember it struck me at the time that the dialogue in the romance was a bit staid and middle of the road, and remember thinking it was written that way so it could conceivably work whichever gender your PC happened to be. It had the whole feeling of Bioware checking boxes, and when an immersive game slips and you see behind the curtain and see how they are clumsily attempting to pull the strings then it kind of kills the romance.
See, here is my issue with the BG romances. They are all damaged in some way and charname's love is supposed to fix it. Viconia has to overcome the culture she was raised with. Neera has trouble with her powers. Dorn has trust issues. Jaheira just lost her husband. Aerie lost her wings. Anomen has to overcome his pride and temper. Rasaad was betrayed by his brother. They all have issues to work out with themselves, and while it certainly is easier to overcome these things with friends or family, "love" isn't a shortcut. Especially not if the partner is just as damaged, or even more. Charname is, as I said above.
I just don't see how that is a good idea.
Now @shawne has a good point that a lot of these points happen even if you're not romancing them. Totally. But you notice no one who's actually got their shit together to some extent actually has interest in you. But these romances sort of play out like dramas, so that's not altogether surprising. A stable relationship would be moderately boring from the player's prospective. "Oh cool, my character got laid again tonight. They both got off too, so that's good. And now they're having a chat about their hobbies. Yeah..."
So what I'm saying is, while @KidCarnival 's point is an excellent observation, these romances are by their very nature a sort of drama that unfolds. Of course they are all broken, some more than others, and lean on CHARNAME. It makes it interesting. Now if you can come up with some sort of RPG romance dynamic that is free of much drama and actually captivating, then by all means become a writer, I'd welcome more variation myself. :P
The problem is that all the romance options are damaged people, and charname is damaged by backstory/default. So basically, the basis for them is:
NPC: Ohai charname, you're cute.
Charname: Thanks, so are you. Why don't we couple up?
NPC: I don't know, you see, I have this huuuuuge problem...
Charname: Oh, how bad can it be? I'm the spawn of the god of murder, just got kidnapped and tortured and my sister was taken to Spellhold.
NPC: Pretty bad, actually. My parents were killed by a squirrel, I lost both legs and I'm cursed, so a wyvern follows me around and tries to kill me!
Charname: Wow, we have so much in common!
To be somewhat realistic, both sides should go REDFLAGREDFLAGREDFLAG.
And in the end, not every story needs to be a love story. It's simply impossible to cover every player's taste with the options. It is possible to offer some options and that has been done, in my opinion. Nothing "should" be added; modders will get to it soon enough. As it is, the main demands were added - options for shorties and half orcs, same sex, and more options for female charnames. It's also fair that Hexxat is female only; it's making up for years of having only Anomen to turn to.
The OP must really be more than pleased by the results lol... *///
So enlightning too... on the current state of.. oh well, enough, really not worthing it i guess.. but interesting to read... yeah, definitively fearing for BG27 now.. when you really want to please a 10% minority that requires absolute 100% equality in cultural treatments.. don't be surprised to get a totally fuck* up androginy / bi-sexuality everywhere inevitably presented/promoted as THE faked new norm, especially for the youngest players..^^ because that's indeed impossible to please everyone, at that little game...so the only 'pragmatical' thing (aka cheapest to produce..for cheapest industrial producers^), as the other dude said is indeed the 'bisexual' route everywhere, every NPCs...OR exactly the same numbers of straight/lez/gay/bi/trans/etc.. that is of course totally impossible to get... and in the end you of course totally erase the 1/10th minority feeling as wished by that same minority.. pure cultural propaganda of course.. 'isolated' LGBTs and their 'goodie/goodie heterofriendly-always-trying-to-be-nice-with-them-to-be-accepted-too' individuals might naturally not 'get this' (just wish to "bang the hell out of that (sexually fantasized) little NPC if possible - whatever the NPCs own stories and/or cultural own bounds, 'who f*cking cares!'..a thing must be found to make it compatible, np..only solutions..*)) ^^) "..as in the end very well said/admitted by another poet and very bright well formed pro talker on those subjects we all know -or SHOULD know lol.. *)) ..but a good summarize too for such wishes.. *)) ^^) , but lobbies sure have gotten that too... *//
gay/lgbt organized new bigotry lol.. loving to reverse the thing too..always.. the ultimate argument beeing, if you go too far (against the wished trend), you are, you are.. yes, you know what you are, a ***** ... we all know that too nowadays))
anyway.. blaaaas.. and ras^^
A(no)men! *)
as a gay man, i think changing existing romances from straight to gay or bi or just adding a gay/bi character for the hell of it seems a bit forced.
i mean, in real life you (theoretically) could fall for someone who isn't attracted to your gender. so from a role-playing perspective, not being able to romance keldorn makes sense right?
http://gaylife.about.com/od/comingout/a/population.htm
The fact that these people are a minority in numbers, doesn't mean that they only deserve 10% of our rights too. Fail argument is fail.
Homosexuality is nothing spectacular, so stop treating it like a spectacle, or a problem that we should eradicate, because it will never go away. It will always be there, on 10% average.
Hexxat is into women, deal with it.
Her portrait also is lame, i prefer the picture where all the 4 npcs are seen in the start of the game, you should have used that, thought i'd share it with you :P
Anyone can easily verify this for themself by researching Alfred Kinsey, so don't take my word for it..
I think i'll take the scientific community.
Bear in mind, gay and bisexuals are sometimes counted together, and also, that average means AVERAGE. It's not the same in all countries, or in all species, but the average is around 10%, give or take.
Also, your attempts at insult are pathetic.