Now I call Godwin on this topic, and we can bury it. So tired of this coming up again and again. If you want romance, play a dating sim and leave the quest for godhood to us demi-gods. *rolls all eyes*
I know, right? I know I would never grow attached to somebody I see literally every day, live with, and have saved the life of and been saved by in turn. That'd be silly.
Whats the deal with people being obsessed with game romances?
That's kind of like asking why people are obsessed with romance sub-plots in fiction. Escapism, emotional investment, and the glaring reality that well-written characters are essentially real people and real people crave companionship.
I'm not saying such plots are wrong. What I don't get is the: "OMG make NPC romanceable, or make her gay/lesbian/hetero/whatever" attitude. It's like asking a book writer to change his work so it would fit your own vision.
As a gay guy I am in the camp of leaving existing characters as they are. But IF (and ONLY IF) the devs have a good idea for a story/character that's written well as a same-sex of bi-sexual romance, I'd be happy to see such a character added to the game.
As much as I want more options to engage in that are particular to myself and identity, I don't want half-arsed, shoe-horned crap or a community in chaos filling the forums with arguments.
Now I have and still advocate that romances going both ways doesn't detract from the character overall and I support mods that bring such options to those who want them. For some characters it can even make a great deal of sense... or could with just a tiny addition to their story (not a change). But I think it causes too many people to get up in arms to make such a change to existing characters and its much easier for people to accept a new character who has no preconceptions associated with them yet.
I'd love to see a gallant, knightly, human male love interest that is an option for either gender to romance. The closest thing we have to such is Keldorn who is married and obviously not a romantic option for either gender (and might just be a bit past his prime he he), and to a lesser extent Anomen who while romanceable by females, isn't exactly well versed in the finer points of etiquette and requires too much heavy handed interaction to fix his daddy issues. I'd like to see such a character be less needy and more "heroey" regardless of who he romances but I'd also like there to be some distinction in how that character interacts with a male or female love interest. I also wouldn't mind him having a "bromance" option for the straight fellas to engage in as well.
You make a fair point no question. That said, the question was do "you" want the devs to spend the time to make a same sex romance and "I" personally do not. Every line of romance that they make (same sex or straight mind you; this isn't some anti-gay rant by me) could be time spent fixing a bug or making a new kit.
Categorically untrue - Beamdog has separate teams for content and bugfixing.
Bug fixing would be untrue then, but the second part of the sentence stands.
Oh wait we are talking about changing the sexuality of existing npcs? Haha hell no. That's totally unacceptable.
Nic_Mercy I agree with most of what you say. As a straight guy I want to be able to engage with you about the game I love, as a fellow member of the community we are both a part of and passionate about. Talk about the high points, of which a well written romance will be one, and not feel you are excluded from that part of the conversation. In fact it enriches my enjoyment of interactive experiences to hear from other people how their different choices led them to awsome things I never saw.
As to the bisexual thing yes I will not deny you can write excellent and awesome Bi NPCs. I just don't want them to be the only ones, because if that is all you have in a game like this, it is one less quality that can add distinctiveness to individual characters.
This is going to sound horrible, but why are both same sex options with evil companions. Well I guess it doesn't' matter since I like Neera better anyway, but still. What message are you trying to send Beamdog? (sarcasm)
Believe it or not, we had some conversations about that. In the end, though, we had to do what was best for the characters. I think the romances are substantial and interesting enough that "evil" shouldn't be a factor (well, except for Dorn, but he's a blackguard). I like to think that those characters are evil because of their actions in the world, not because of their sexual orientation.
But the good monk and the neutral wizard are straight, so your point is not that valid. Dorn especially is practically impossible to even recruit for some classes, e.g. Paladins, if the player cares even a little bit for role-playing .
Nic_Mercy I agree with most of what you say. As a straight guy I want to be able to engage with you about the game I love, as a fellow member of the community we are both a part of and passionate about. Talk about the high points, of which a well written romance will be one, and not feel you are excluded from that part of the conversation. In fact it enriches my enjoyment of interactive experiences to hear from other people how their different choices led them to awsome things I never saw.
As to the bisexual thing yes I will not deny you can write excellent and awesome Bi NPCs. I just don't want them to be the only ones, because if that is all you have in a game like this, it is one less quality that can add distinctiveness to individual characters.
Honestly what I'd love to see in an RPG someday, is a sort of tutorial or intro to the game where you are asked a series of questions that basically tailors certain aspects of the main game to the player. Like say for example, some general aspects to your origin (your background is: a) slave, b) noble, c)orphan, etc) or the types of romances you like to engage in ( how do you approach romance: a) no romances, b) romance female exclusively, c) romance male exclusively, d) romance both genders, etc).
A game whose story can be tailored to the player's personality is a very interesting concept to me and I can't think of any game that really does this to any great extent beyond some player made content I've seen in Neverwinter Nights mods. I'm sure it must exist somewhere... I just never ran across it or it was for a platform or genre that didn't appeal to me.
The cool thing is such a game could have new options added as DLC to make the story options even more varied as the life of the game progresses and adding to re-playability.
Honestly what I'd love to see in an RPG someday, is a sort of tutorial or intro to the game where you are asked a series of questions that basically tailors certain aspects of the main game to the player.
A game whose story can be tailored to the player's personality is a very interesting concept to me
This is pretty much exactly what the massive variety of mods available for the BG games does (original BG2 most of all). In lieu of a long start up menu full of options or an in-game interview like you mention, just browse the available mods and tailor the game the way you want it.
For most categories of change there tends to be a mod; and if it doesn't change things exactly how you like them there's a fair chance that you can make slight changes to it until it does.
Honestly what I'd love to see in an RPG someday, is a sort of tutorial or intro to the game where you are asked a series of questions that basically tailors certain aspects of the main game to the player.
A game whose story can be tailored to the player's personality is a very interesting concept to me
This is pretty much exactly what the massive variety of mods available for the BG games does (original BG2 most of all). In lieu of a long start up menu full of options or an in-game interview like you mention, just browse the available mods and tailor the game the way you want it.
For most categories of change there tends to be a mod; and if it doesn't change things exactly how you like them there's a fair chance that you can make slight changes to it until it does.
That's not exactly the same thing I am talking about though. I want my decisions to actually impact the story. Like the story actually becomes different based on which origin I choose, or say some npcs do or don't appear in the story and events surrounding them do or dont happen based on other choices I made.
I guess what I am saying is I want it to be intentionally part of the game as opposed to a mod that while it can add options doesn't actually change the story's beginning or outcome in any integral way. Think of it in an MMO sense when you choose your character's race. Often you will start in a different area than players who choose other races. Every time you make a character of a different race you start somewhere new and there's a new story you follow until you meet up with the "main story". Dragon Age: Origins is also a good example of this. Still that's only a crude example. I hope to one day see a game take such choice making to an extreme unseen yet today in gaming as far as I know.
I am in favour of introducing new NPCs of varying sexual orientations. Just as long as they leave current NPCs as is. I thought the way they did it in Dragon Age II was an abomination of the highest order. Full marks for trying to incorporate same sex romances, but not by hitting every possible romanceable companion with a bi-ray. Bisexuality is but one of many sexual orientations there are. Making everyone bi denies the many varied tapestry that is sexuality, and all should be embraced and done justice.
See, the problem that I have with this argument is the same as always: you're making very specific assumptions about sex, sexuality and sexual orientation as they pertain to a fictional world that is not our own. Even if you were to argue (as many have) that realms like Faerun and Thedas are based on our own cultural and social norms, that doesn't mean there's a one-to-one correlation in terms of basic values and concepts.
Ed Greenwood (creator of the FR) has said that for the most part, sexuality is a non-issue in the Realms: people want who they want, and there are no labels attached. We might call Hexxat a lesbian, but that word doesn't exist in the world she inhabits; by the same token, there's nothing "abominable" about the romances in DA2 because there's no indication - none - that bisexuality is a) rare, b) frowned upon, and 3) recognized as such. In fact, the lack of terminology could support the argument that the world of DA:O/DA2 doesn't even acknowledge that there is such a thing as sexual orientation.
This is going to sound horrible, but why are both same sex options with evil companions. Well I guess it doesn't' matter since I like Neera better anyway, but still. What message are you trying to send Beamdog? (sarcasm)
Believe it or not, we had some conversations about that. In the end, though, we had to do what was best for the characters. I think the romances are substantial and interesting enough that "evil" shouldn't be a factor (well, except for Dorn, but he's a blackguard). I like to think that those characters are evil because of their actions in the world, not because of their sexual orientation.
But the good monk and the neutral wizard are straight, so your point is not that valid. Dorn especially is practically impossible to even recruit for some classes, e.g. Paladins, if the player cares even a little bit for role-playing .
My point still stands; not everyone is gay or bisexual, just as not everyone is straight, and when you're looking at a character, you have to look at the whole context of that character. It might not meet demographical (yay, making up words!) standards, but if we had just shunted a different sexual orientation onto Neera or Rasaad, that's not a minor shift.
Believe me, there's plenty of room for non-heteronormative relationships in video games, and in this one especially. But the important thing to remember is that we're striving for full, believable characters, not just characters that fit into a particular gender identity box.
Speaking as someone who frequently writes non-heteronormative characters, I can tell you that the worst thing you can do to a character is force it to be anything other than what it is for the sake of pleasing the reader or audience.
What I would say is this: recruit Hexxat, and play through her romance. I think you'll be pleased with her characterization; she's not a one-dimensional character, and if you're only looking at her alignment, you're looking at the very least part of who she is.
@Dee I don´t think much of the DnD alignment system, so I basically don´t care what is written on the character sheet. Also I am more interested in Dorn, and he is simply no option for many characters. His first mission is , well you know what , making him an absolute non option for many of my planned characters. Considering that he is the only m/m option being so incompatible with many possible player characters is a big disadvantage and a let down. That is to say I have to play his romance first and reserve judgement until I finished it.
@Dee I don´t think much of the DnD alignment system, so I basically don´t care what is written on the character sheet. Also I am more interested in Dorn, and he is simply no option for many characters. His first mission is , well you know what , making him an absolute non option for many of my planned characters. Considering that he is the only m/m option being so incompatible with many possible player characters is a big disadvantage and a let down. That is to say I have to play his romance first and reserve judgement until I finished it.
His first mission is to kill a bunch of traitorous, racist douchebags that left him for dead. How is that a "non-option" for virtually any adventurer?
I'm not saying such plots are wrong. What I don't get is the: "OMG make NPC romanceable, or make her gay/lesbian/hetero/whatever" attitude. It's like asking a book writer to change his work so it would fit your own vision.
As I pointed out in my first post in this thread, the OP was more than likely being facetious/trolling, so I don't think making a given NPC romance/gay/straight/hetero is what's being asked, here. I'm not sure if the OP was really asking anything at all. Asking for Minsc to be gay when he's pretty clearly asexual is an intentionally silly proposition.
@Dee I don´t think much of the DnD alignment system, so I basically don´t care what is written on the character sheet. Also I am more interested in Dorn, and he is simply no option for many characters. His first mission is , well you know what , making him an absolute non option for many of my planned characters. Considering that he is the only m/m option being so incompatible with many possible player characters is a big disadvantage and a let down. That is to say I have to play his romance first and reserve judgement until I finished it.
His first mission is to kill a bunch of traitorous, racist douchebags that left him for dead. How is that a "non-option" for virtually any adventurer?
I was talking about his first mission in BG:2. The dialogue is quite funny, but finishing it with the minimum amount of bloodshed is hard and it is a complete no go for paladins.
There are already two same-sex options for romance in BGII:EE. If we ever add more, it will be with new characters, not changing old ones.
What are the odds of this actually happening?
Good aligned PC's are kind of left out of the options, Dorn is a demon worshiping murderer, and while I don't know Hexxat's story, lore wise she should make Dorn look all nice and cuddly in comparison.
This is going to sound horrible, but why are both same sex options with evil companions. Well I guess it doesn't' matter since I like Neera better anyway, but still. What message are you trying to send Beamdog? (sarcasm)
Believe it or not, we had some conversations about that. In the end, though, we had to do what was best for the characters. I think the romances are substantial and interesting enough that "evil" shouldn't be a factor (well, except for Dorn, but he's a blackguard). I like to think that those characters are evil because of their actions in the world, not because of their sexual orientation.
But the good monk and the neutral wizard are straight, so your point is not that valid. Dorn especially is practically impossible to even recruit for some classes, e.g. Paladins, if the player cares even a little bit for role-playing .
My point still stands; not everyone is gay or bisexual, just as not everyone is straight, and when you're looking at a character, you have to look at the whole context of that character. It might not meet demographical (yay, making up words!) standards, but if we had just shunted a different sexual orientation onto Neera or Rasaad, that's not a minor shift.
Believe me, there's plenty of room for non-heteronormative relationships in video games, and in this one especially. But the important thing to remember is that we're striving for full, believable characters, not just characters that fit into a particular gender identity box.
Speaking as someone who frequently writes non-heteronormative characters, I can tell you that the worst thing you can do to a character is force it to be anything other than what it is for the sake of pleasing the reader or audience.
What I would say is this: recruit Hexxat, and play through her romance. I think you'll be pleased with her characterization; she's not a one-dimensional character, and if you're only looking at her alignment, you're looking at the very least part of who she is.
I wish you could impart some of your wisdom on Bioware who insist on making half the cast bisexual in Dragon Age.
Good aligned PC's are kind of left out of the options, Dorn is a demon worshiping murderer, and while I don't know Hexxat's story, lore wise she should make Dorn look all nice and cuddly in comparison.
Uh... what? There are two Evil romances (Hexxat and Dorn) and two Good romances (Rasaad and Neera). To say nothing of the fact that Good-aligned PCs still have Anomen, Aerie, Jaheira and Viconia.
I wish you could impart some of your wisdom on Bioware who insist on making half the cast bisexual in Dragon Age.
Way to miss the point - @Dee is talking about changing existing characters. The Dragon Age NPCs who are bisexual were designed to be bisexual in exactly the same way as Hexxat was designed to be a lesbian.
I'm not saying such plots are wrong. What I don't get is the: "OMG make NPC romanceable, or make her gay/lesbian/hetero/whatever" attitude. It's like asking a book writer to change his work so it would fit your own vision.
As I pointed out in my first post in this thread, the OP was more than likely being facetious/trolling, so I don't think making a given NPC romance/gay/straight/hetero is what's being asked, here. I'm not sure if the OP was really asking anything at all. Asking for Minsc to be gay when he's pretty clearly asexual is an intentionally silly proposition.
Well I was more talking bout the people that occasionaly drop here with such requests.
I wish you could impart some of your wisdom on Bioware who insist on making half the cast bisexual in Dragon Age.
Way to miss the point - @Dee is talking about changing existing characters. The Dragon Age NPCs who are bisexual were designed to be bisexual in exactly the same way as Hexxat was designed to be a lesbian.
Regardless it's sort of unnatural to have every possible companion you meet to be bi in the name of appeasing everyone. It does not make characters to be more believable.
Uh... what? There are two Evil romances (Hexxat and Dorn) and two Good romances (Rasaad and Neera). To say nothing of the fact that Good-aligned PCs still have Anomen, Aerie, Jaheira and Viconia.
I believe the poster was referring to non-hetero romance options for good-aligned characters.
Good aligned PC's are kind of left out of the options, Dorn is a demon worshiping murderer, and while I don't know Hexxat's story, lore wise she should make Dorn look all nice and cuddly in comparison.
Uh... what? There are two Evil romances (Hexxat and Dorn) and two Good romances (Rasaad and Neera). To say nothing of the fact that Good-aligned PCs still have Anomen, Aerie, Jaheira and Viconia.
I did not specify that I was referring to SS romance options since that is what the entire thread is about. Since you brought it up though, Anomen, Jaheira, Neera and Viconia are equally available to evil PC's as they are for good in regards to straight romance options.
I am not here to make attacks at the lack of good options, I asked a question as to how likely something of that nature would ever be available. I don't plan to pout and whine if the answer is probably never.
Regardless it's sort of unnatural to have every possible companion you meet to be bi in the name of appeasing everyone. It does not make characters to be more believable.
To echo a point made in another thread: it's only "unnatural" if you assume the world of Dragon Age views sexuality exactly the way ours does. And there's more than enough evidence to suggest that isn't the case.
I did not specify that I was referring to SS romance options since that is what the entire thread is about. Since you brought it up though, Anomen, Jaheira, Neera and Viconia are equally available to evil PC's as they are for good in regards to straight romance options.
Technically, Hexxat is available for Good PCs too (not sure about Dorn) - but what you're looking for is story consistency, in which case it's somewhat disingenuous that evil characters can romance Anomen, Jaheira and Neera without compromising their own personality; what's more, Viconia's romance typically ends with a conversion to True Neutral, so it's not like she was designed primarily as an evil love interest anyway.
I am not here to make attacks at the lack of good options, I asked a question as to how likely something of that nature would ever be available. I don't plan to pout and whine if the answer is probably never.
Realistically speaking, there are two possibilities: either Beamdog will gradually release new characters over time (most likely as paid DLC) or you go for mod characters, which have much more variety: off the top of my head, there's Arath, Auren Aseph, Chloe, Faren and Nathaniel.
All males except for Chloe, who was the worst mod I ever experienced with the exception of Saerileth, couldn't make it very far in either, I don't recall but I wouldn't be surprised if they had the same creator.
All males except for Chloe, who was the worst mod I ever experienced with the exception of Saerileth, couldn't make it very far in either, I don't recall but I wouldn't be surprised if they had the same creator.
Auren Aseph is female. And as I said, that's just off the top of my head - I'm sure you'll find more if you do even a casual search.
The Faren mod is of particularly good quality as a bi-romance. Nathaniel was a nice gay romance character.
If the devs here add any more potential love interest npc's I'd take a look at those specifically for reference. Faren in particular.
My main reason for prefering bi romances is simple. I don't want anyone feeling left out like I often do. It's not that I want "every character to be bi" Its that it bothers me when the ONLY character I have any interest in ISN'T AN OPTION. And what options I do have fall flat for me and are undesirable to pursue.
That's precisely how I felt with Dragon Age: Origins. Thankfully a mod allowed me to enjoy the game as I wished and let me romance Alistair ^_^
I am in favour of introducing new NPCs of varying sexual orientations. Just as long as they leave current NPCs as is. I thought the way they did it in Dragon Age II was an abomination of the highest order. Full marks for trying to incorporate same sex romances, but not by hitting every possible romanceable companion with a bi-ray. Bisexuality is but one of many sexual orientations there are. Making everyone bi denies the many varied tapestry that is sexuality, and all should be embraced and done justice.
As it stood the romances were staid and bland, because they had to reasonably fit into non-gender specific dialogue, I would rather they had just stuck to straight romances, or none at all in that case. If you are going to do straight romances do them properly, if you are going to do homosexual or bisexual ones please do them the same justice. For the record I am not anti-bi either. Zevran was one of my favorite NPCs in the original Dragon Age, and his sexuality was a crucial part of his personality and how he communicated it. And whilst I never romanced him, the game was in my view better for his presence.
I disagree completely. If you have a romance option you need gay and straight, there's no reason to ever exclude either one. RPG's are all about choices and I'd rather have substandard choices than none at all.
I personally really dislike the "NPC's sexuality is chosen by the PC's preference" line that recent games have gone down, and it's part of the reason Dorn's sexuality is actually bisexual (and this is referenced in dialog a couple of times). Gender isn't an issue for him: what he's ATTRACTED to is power.
Comments
As much as I want more options to engage in that are particular to myself and identity, I don't want half-arsed, shoe-horned crap or a community in chaos filling the forums with arguments.
Now I have and still advocate that romances going both ways doesn't detract from the character overall and I support mods that bring such options to those who want them. For some characters it can even make a great deal of sense... or could with just a tiny addition to their story (not a change). But I think it causes too many people to get up in arms to make such a change to existing characters and its much easier for people to accept a new character who has no preconceptions associated with them yet.
I'd love to see a gallant, knightly, human male love interest that is an option for either gender to romance. The closest thing we have to such is Keldorn who is married and obviously not a romantic option for either gender (and might just be a bit past his prime he he), and to a lesser extent Anomen who while romanceable by females, isn't exactly well versed in the finer points of etiquette and requires too much heavy handed interaction to fix his daddy issues. I'd like to see such a character be less needy and more "heroey" regardless of who he romances but I'd also like there to be some distinction in how that character interacts with a male or female love interest. I also wouldn't mind him having a "bromance" option for the straight fellas to engage in as well.
no **** this I'm out
Oh wait we are talking about changing the sexuality of existing npcs? Haha hell no. That's totally unacceptable.
As to the bisexual thing yes I will not deny you can write excellent and awesome Bi NPCs. I just don't want them to be the only ones, because if that is all you have in a game like this, it is one less quality that can add distinctiveness to individual characters.
A game whose story can be tailored to the player's personality is a very interesting concept to me and I can't think of any game that really does this to any great extent beyond some player made content I've seen in Neverwinter Nights mods. I'm sure it must exist somewhere... I just never ran across it or it was for a platform or genre that didn't appeal to me.
The cool thing is such a game could have new options added as DLC to make the story options even more varied as the life of the game progresses and adding to re-playability.
For most categories of change there tends to be a mod; and if it doesn't change things exactly how you like them there's a fair chance that you can make slight changes to it until it does.
I guess what I am saying is I want it to be intentionally part of the game as opposed to a mod that while it can add options doesn't actually change the story's beginning or outcome in any integral way. Think of it in an MMO sense when you choose your character's race. Often you will start in a different area than players who choose other races. Every time you make a character of a different race you start somewhere new and there's a new story you follow until you meet up with the "main story". Dragon Age: Origins is also a good example of this. Still that's only a crude example. I hope to one day see a game take such choice making to an extreme unseen yet today in gaming as far as I know.
Ed Greenwood (creator of the FR) has said that for the most part, sexuality is a non-issue in the Realms: people want who they want, and there are no labels attached. We might call Hexxat a lesbian, but that word doesn't exist in the world she inhabits; by the same token, there's nothing "abominable" about the romances in DA2 because there's no indication - none - that bisexuality is a) rare, b) frowned upon, and 3) recognized as such. In fact, the lack of terminology could support the argument that the world of DA:O/DA2 doesn't even acknowledge that there is such a thing as sexual orientation.
Believe me, there's plenty of room for non-heteronormative relationships in video games, and in this one especially. But the important thing to remember is that we're striving for full, believable characters, not just characters that fit into a particular gender identity box.
Speaking as someone who frequently writes non-heteronormative characters, I can tell you that the worst thing you can do to a character is force it to be anything other than what it is for the sake of pleasing the reader or audience.
What I would say is this: recruit Hexxat, and play through her romance. I think you'll be pleased with her characterization; she's not a one-dimensional character, and if you're only looking at her alignment, you're looking at the very least part of who she is.
I don´t think much of the DnD alignment system, so I basically don´t care what is written on the character sheet.
Also I am more interested in Dorn, and he is simply no option for many characters. His first mission is , well you know what , making him an absolute non option for many of my planned characters. Considering that he is the only m/m option being so incompatible with many possible player characters is a big disadvantage and a let down.
That is to say I have to play his romance first and reserve judgement until I finished it.
Good aligned PC's are kind of left out of the options, Dorn is a demon worshiping murderer, and while I don't know Hexxat's story, lore wise she should make Dorn look all nice and cuddly in comparison.
I am not here to make attacks at the lack of good options, I asked a question as to how likely something of that nature would ever be available. I don't plan to pout and whine if the answer is probably never.
If the devs here add any more potential love interest npc's I'd take a look at those specifically for reference. Faren in particular.
My main reason for prefering bi romances is simple. I don't want anyone feeling left out like I often do. It's not that I want "every character to be bi" Its that it bothers me when the ONLY character I have any interest in ISN'T AN OPTION. And what options I do have fall flat for me and are undesirable to pursue.
That's precisely how I felt with Dragon Age: Origins. Thankfully a mod allowed me to enjoy the game as I wished and let me romance Alistair ^_^