Cleric/Ranger in BG:EE

chickenhed

If this has been asked, please inform me of the answer as I couldn't find any topic regarding this.

I wonder if they will be fixing the "bug" of the Cleric/Ranger getting all cleric AND druid spells. I understand many liked this class as it is insanely powerful, but I always hated this. The class combo should only get the RANGER spells, not druid spells.

Thoughts?

Cheesebelly

I think all the love from the class comes from those druid spells. Without them, there is simply no other big advantage to it, so you rather go with a Fighter/cleric (you need less XP that way too). The two * on Dual wielding aren't really good enough reason, cleric isn't able to use a lot of weapon anyway.

If you like to ROLE PLAY Ranger/Cleric, I guess you just don't ever pick the druid spells above level 3. If you like abusing possible bugs, then you simply enjoy the R/C to the fullest I guess. No need to get it fixed if you can play with a clear conscience

The_New_Romance

I'd say "fix it", if it is a bug. If it isn't, leave it in. The way I see it, a R/C should receive Cleric spells plus low-level druid spells as soon as his Ranger class gets high enough. Not more.

Cheesebelly

@The_New_Romance : I think Icewind Dale 1 already functions like that, but I am not sure about it.

Armancia

It's overpower and it's a bug. However Bioware didn't able to fix that. I hope a fix by Overhaule

gmazca

The problem is that there is no reason to go ranger/cleric when fighter/cleric is quicker to level and gets better melee bonuses minus the racial enemy. The druid spells are the only thing that keeps this class viable...

Tanthalas

I think people would be pissed if this one was fixed.

Armancia

Ranger/cleric can charm animals. They have 2 weapons specialisation free, low level duid spell (4), and racial ennemy. In my opinion, It less powerfull than Fighter cleric, but it's not useless.

Arrakis

If you hate it, simply don't use it. Many people like the Ranger/Cleric as it is, and I think it isn't a bug that has to be fixed - it is what makes the class combination unique, not overpowered.

chickenhed

gmazca said:

The problem is that there is no reason to go ranger/cleric when fighter/cleric is quicker to level and gets better melee bonuses minus the racial enemy. The druid spells are the only thing that keeps this class viable...

Well, yes. But that is one heck of an "only". Having high level druid spells is at least as powerful, if not more powerful, than the weapon bonuses fighter/clerics get.

Cheesebelly

@Armancia : I agree with your points, but overall when you think about it :
Charm animal not that great outside BG1
Low level druid spells aren't that much of a big use. It's the latter ones that are (Iron skin, insect plague, etc)
Two points in dual wielding is good, but clerics are very restricted with weapons. Chances are a fighter/cleric can get 3 of those dual wielding points anyway by early-mid SoA anyway.

Racial enemy is really the biggest advantage, but that counts only for ONE specific enemy in the entire game (and I really either go with Vampires or Dragons when it comes to that subject)

I think that the idea proposed by @Arrakis is really the best solution. It angers none, aside from an annoyance for those that want to play legit I guess. I myself like overpowered

Jolanthus

Cheesebelly said:

Racial enemy is really the biggest advantage, but that counts only for ONE specific enemy in the entire game (and I really either go with Vampires or Dragons when it comes to that subject)

Don't you get a new racial enemy every 4 levels? or am I thinking IWD?

Cheesebelly

@Jolanthus : I think so, yes, although I never played a Ranger there. Makes me want to try it out now XD
In BG1 and 2 you were always restricted to one racial enemy per game. Which kinda sucks.

Tanthalas

Its IWD2 because that uses 3E rules.

Medillen

Yep only one racial ennemy. And the problem is, considering the bestiary change between BG1 and BG2, it is even less usefull... No vampire or dragons at first. Yep, druids spells are the "only" plus out there.

But it's a pretty big plus, I have to admit.

Tanthalas

You know what I can do. I'll post this as a bug report but make it very low priority. I'll probably give it a misleading title too like "Boo should shoot lasers out of his eyes" so the developers think I'm crazy and completely disregard the topic.

Thoughts?

Schneidend

Aren't Rangers supposed to get Druid spells? What's the problem?

Medillen

Or you could make a poll. To see if people actually care about that. I think most people will whine if it is fixed...

@Schneidend rangers gets at max level 3 druids spells. But the ranger/cleric access both. At any level.

Millardkillmoore

The problem is that it cheapens druids. They're a fairly subpar class, but some of their high-level spells are rather powerful. If the Cleric/Ranger bug remains, why play a druid? The C/R gets all the druid spells, and is a better warrior, and has all the cleric spells, and the ranger and cleric special abilities. Unless you're a big fan of underpowered shapeshifting, there's no real reason to play a druid. This is a bug. It should be fixed.

FrozenDervish

@millardkillmoore Druids are cheapened regardless because they are pretty terrible to begin with in this game. And you could do the same thing with a fighter/druid, but no access to priest spells. Also what does it matter on whether or not this remains in the game it's a single player game and if you don't like playing with something no one is forcing you to use it and if you use the argument that "I shouldn't be tempted" you are just trying to be argumentitive.

Tanthalas

@Millardkillmoore

Well, Druids will gain access to those spells before the Cleric/Ranger.

FrozenDervish

Also since it is not a gamebreaking bug it should be left in as people do like it.

Millardkillmoore

FrozenDervish said:

@millardkillmoore Druids are cheapened regardless because they are pretty terrible to begin with in this game. And you could do the same thing with a fighter/druid, but no access to priest spells. Also what does it matter on whether or not this remains in the game it's a single player game and if you don't like playing with something no one is forcing you to use it and if you use the argument that "I shouldn't be tempted" you are just trying to be argumentitive.

1) It's also a multiplayer game

2) While no game can be perfectly balanced, they should at least attempt to approach it. This is not a radical redesign of the entire druid class that would require an enormous investment of development resources. This is a simple bugfix that would allow the Druid to retain a unique and at least somewhat useful role. The Druid would still have a niche role in the party, but the difference in power between them and a R/C would at least be relatively small instead of the gaping chasm it is now.

3) Say a new player who is familiar with AD&D or BG picks up the EE. They are totally unaware of the R/C bug. She thinks the druid looks like a fun class and plays it. After a while, She goes online to find an effective array of spells and equipment. While looking up that information, She discovers the vastly superior R/C build. She would be justifiably pissed that their character was so subpar through no fault of their own. After all, it isn't like the game told her about this bug that takes away the most powerful and unique part of her class and gives it to another.

4) Since this is a bug, it is understandable that this was in the game. The devs likely didn't realize it. Now they know. If they leave it in, it is by design. New players who are unaware of this bug are just important as more experienced who are aware of it. Allowing new players to become so justifiably frustrated due to the game not informing them of this is bad design. Period.

Schneidend

Medillen said:

Or you could make a poll. To see if people actually care about that. I think most people will whine if it is fixed...

@Schneidend rangers gets at max level 3 druids spells. But the ranger/cleric access both. At any level.

Eh, sounds fine to me. Their XP is basically cut in half between the awesomeness of the Cleric and the terrible that is the Ranger. Seems like a fair exchange.

Medillen

Schneidend said:

Medillen said:

Or you could make a poll. To see if people actually care about that. I think most people will whine if it is fixed...

@Schneidend rangers gets at max level 3 druids spells. But the ranger/cleric access both. At any level.

Eh, sounds fine to me. Their XP is basically cut in half between the awesomeness of the Cleric and the terrible that is the Ranger. Seems like a fair exchange.

Ranger... terrible ? You are dead to me '__' xD Rangers are great, but with clerics they get a severe weapon restriction (they can't even wield scimitars !!!) and they get clerics spell slowly since it's multiclass. So... yeah it doesn't do great. I don't think it is a bug.


@Millardkillmoore I used to play a thief. Then I saw on the internet how vastly superior the kensai/thief was. I didn't get mad, and I finished the game with a thief, no bigdeal. And I don't think it is a bug. It's a feature ! Druids are still pretty good, they have awesome HLA with the prince of elemental that isn't available to C/R. The only "true" bug here is that C/R had HLA too soon with the R. But it has been fixed. So you could say, in a way, that it already has been balanced but that it probably won't be balanced any further.

Thels

What about dualclass? What if you start ranger, go to level 2, and then switch to cleric? That hardly costs any XP. What effect would that have on your spells?

Overall, I'd consider this a bug, and try to get it fixed.

Cheesebelly

Druids have a chance to cast Chan, Sunnis and Zaaman Rul. And that is a BIG BIG BIG advantage that druids have and Cleric/Rangers don't. Those three guys are potentially the strongest summons in the game along with Planetars.

Dragonfolk2000

Will the Ranger/Cleric spell glitch remain in the game? I feel that this is an important part of the meta-game that should remain. I feel that it is sufficiently balanced due to the requirement that the character be dual or multiclassed.

For those of you who do not know of the glitch: if a character is either a dual or multi classed ranger/cleric then they have the ability to select both druid and cleric spells for their spells per day. It doesn't combine spell slots but instead combines their spells known list.

Elessar

... and, naturally, it would be nice to know whether this is staying in the game before starting my first BGEE character

Tanthalas

I merged the similar threads.

If this bug doesn't appear on the Fixed subforum, you guys can probably assume that it hasn't been fixed.

Thels

Dragonfolk2000 said:

Will the Ranger/Cleric spell glitch remain in the game? I feel that this is an important part of the meta-game that should remain. I feel that it is sufficiently balanced due to the requirement that the character be dual or multiclassed.

For those of you who do not know of the glitch: if a character is either a dual or multi classed ranger/cleric then they have the ability to select both druid and cleric spells for their spells per day. It doesn't combine spell slots but instead combines their spells known list.

How is dual or multiclassing a high enough requirement when other dual/multiclass combinations don't have such a benefit? Ranger/Cleric is already one of the combinations that is taking the best of both worlds without such an advantage (as opposed to say Warrior Type/Arcane Type, where the ability to wear heavy armor is lot).