@Windsong That link sounds about right, they indeed did not gain access to higher quality iron/steel imports until the 19th Century. The point I was making was that because they had to work with low quality materials they had to produce *better* laminating techniques than the Europeans to create high quality swords, which they did. This contradicts what Samiel seemed to imply: that because Japanese steel was of poor quailty, Japanese laminated steel blades were of inferior design, when in fact the reverse is true. I do agree that by the time steel importing became widespread the art of swordmaking was little more than a vanity, but this is not neccessarily true in the FR setting. What I was trying to do was to properly seperate the debate on material quality with the debate on technique quality and hence weapon quality. You will note that the webpage you link to is very clear about the imported steel starting a new golden age in Japanese smithing, which seems to back up what I'm saying.
My bamboo/papier mache was just me bieng facetious, that said some wealthy samurai who could afford it in the 16th Century purchased contemporary European armour, not just as a curiosity but to actually wear in battle which tells me all I need to know about Japanese armour of the period.
Yes the cutting edge on the katana is peerless, but when a longsword is edged properly is no slouch either! And not every katana is edged that well. Most people who over romanticise katanas are thinking of the occasional very high quality ones made by master smiths. Well news flash you can get high end longswords crafted by masters too.
Comparing two exceptionally made swords does close the gap, but does not erase it entirely as the katanas curve is what gives it it's cutting power by increasing its cutting area. This is precisely why the british adopted a curved cavalry saber. However as great as its cutting capacity is I would not trade that for its reduced defensive capability, increased range and superior piercing capability.
I refute the above video showing the katana vs longsword as 1. I suspect the katana was of finer quality than longsword (which is not hard as historical forging techniques such as Damascus steel have since been lost, but it is quite clear it wasn't even pattern welded, which is an excellent technique that has evolved in order to replicate the mastery of Damascus smiths) 2. An excellent technique for piercing is to hold the longsword with the hilt in one hand, and the bottom with the other hand and thrust as one would with a spear. Had they done those things the longsword would be the clear winner there.
@wariisop sounds like a great idea. I'd like to see a Tachi Greatsword with 2d6 damage.
@samiel re: the wealthy samurai who wore European armor into battle--you are probably referring to Oda Nobunaga. He was a complete Europe-phile (europhile) and collected and wore all things European such as arms, armor, and clothing. But he was clearly unique in his time. He believed he was a god and then he died shortly thereafter at the hands of his own general. At the time, none could claim divine heritage except the emperor himself and the Japanese regarded westerners as "barbarians" and viewed western culture as beneath their own. I have not heard of any other Japanese purchasing and wearing contemporary european armor into battle.
What the Japanese eventually did do, however, was to incorporate some aspects of European armor into their own armor design once muskets were introduced into Japan--e.g., they added the western style cuirass in the hope that it would stop musket balls a bit better. But now we have entered the age of guns and guns>all metal armor, even European plate armor.
Re: the video, yeah it's possible the katana was of finer quality than the longsword. But that probably would have been the norm centuries ago as well, as refined tamahagane, once properly processed, is a superior and more durable form of steel that has high carbon content. Maybe Damascus steel was better, but since both the process and the swords are lost to time, who really knows. I would imagine the majority of European long swords, however, were not made of Damascus steel.
Check out this massive Odachi (67" overall, 49" blade) from CAS-Hanwei (short video included): http://www.casiberia.com/prod_Detail.aspx?id=SH2392 @wariisop Maybe we could call the new Two-Handed Greatsword Katana an Odachi instead of a Tachi.
Actually, I didn't mean to hijack this thread into an occidental vs oriental martial weapon debate, so in terms of the topic at hand, yes they should definately give katanas two handed animations if possible.
The reason the uchigatana cuts better than the long sword is the curved edge. The flat edge distributes the force of the impact along the length in contact, so narrowing to a point (as it would be along a curve) will improve the cutting. This begs the question of why the European weapons were not curved, and this has to do with the stabbing capability of the European sword. In this, the long sword is highly superior and maintains this ability after use.
Comments
Yes the cutting edge on the katana is peerless, but when a longsword is edged properly is no slouch either! And not every katana is edged that well. Most people who over romanticise katanas are thinking of the occasional very high quality ones made by master smiths. Well news flash you can get high end longswords crafted by masters too.
Comparing two exceptionally made swords does close the gap, but does not erase it entirely as the katanas curve is what gives it it's cutting power by increasing its cutting area. This is precisely why the british adopted a curved cavalry saber. However as great as its cutting capacity is I would not trade that for its reduced defensive capability, increased range and superior piercing capability.
I refute the above video showing the katana vs longsword as 1. I suspect the katana was of finer quality than longsword (which is not hard as historical forging techniques such as Damascus steel have since been lost, but it is quite clear it wasn't even pattern welded, which is an excellent technique that has evolved in order to replicate the mastery of Damascus smiths) 2. An excellent technique for piercing is to hold the longsword with the hilt in one hand, and the bottom with the other hand and thrust as one would with a spear. Had they done those things the longsword would be the clear winner there.
@samiel re: the wealthy samurai who wore European armor into battle--you are probably referring to Oda Nobunaga. He was a complete Europe-phile (europhile) and collected and wore all things European such as arms, armor, and clothing. But he was clearly unique in his time. He believed he was a god and then he died shortly thereafter at the hands of his own general. At the time, none could claim divine heritage except the emperor himself and the Japanese regarded westerners as "barbarians" and viewed western culture as beneath their own. I have not heard of any other Japanese purchasing and wearing contemporary european armor into battle.
What the Japanese eventually did do, however, was to incorporate some aspects of European armor into their own armor design once muskets were introduced into Japan--e.g., they added the western style cuirass in the hope that it would stop musket balls a bit better. But now we have entered the age of guns and guns>all metal armor, even European plate armor.
Re: the video, yeah it's possible the katana was of finer quality than the longsword. But that probably would have been the norm centuries ago as well, as refined tamahagane, once properly processed, is a superior and more durable form of steel that has high carbon content. Maybe Damascus steel was better, but since both the process and the swords are lost to time, who really knows. I would imagine the majority of European long swords, however, were not made of Damascus steel.
http://www.casiberia.com/prod_Detail.aspx?id=SH2392
@wariisop Maybe we could call the new Two-Handed Greatsword Katana an Odachi instead of a Tachi.
It is longer than CAS-Hanwei's Claymore (55" overall, 41" blade):
http://www.casiberia.com/product/claymore/sh2060
and about as long as the "Lowlander" Sword (68" overall, 48" blade):
http://www.casiberia.com/product/lowlander-sword/sh2065
Just a shot in the dark..
BG2 Tweaks does it and, frankly, does it a lot better.
Two-handed weapons are not allowed for some profession like thief.
( Yoshimo is thief with katana specialization )