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Spoiler: Minsc and Hexxat

YankonisYankonis Member Posts: 8
in Baldur's Gate II: Enhanced Edition
For Minsc having vampires as his racial enemy he sure seems to get along OK with Hexxat. I think they tried too hard to add a vampire into the game and pushed aside how most of the companions would actually react to it.
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  • CoutelierCoutelier Member Posts: 1,282
    Yeah. Although I think her worst interactions are with Imoen, who seems to have turned from being an eternal child or at least a student of socratic irony, to just being an idiot... I'm not saying she would attack her, but because of her experience with Irenicus and Bodhi, she should be a lot more wary and distrustful.
  • YankonisYankonis Member Posts: 8
    Coutelier said:

    Yeah. Although I think her worst interactions are with Imoen, who seems to have turned from being an eternal child or at least a student of socratic irony, to just being an idiot... I'm not saying she would attack her, but because of her experience with Irenicus and Bodhi, she should be a lot more wary and distrustful.

    On the flip side I just saw the best interaction ever between Minsc and Neera. I think they did a great job of integrating Neera into the party dynamics. I just wish they would have not made Hexxat a vampire. She could have been a demon, devil, evil nymph/dryad, dark planar, or tons of other things and I could see her fitting (with reservation) in most parties, but as a Vampire most of the NPCs would kill her on sight let alone after she is found to be killing people at night.
  • SpiffyMcBangSpiffyMcBang Member Posts: 160
    Minsc is goofy enough to accept anyone unless he has a very personal reason to dislike them (ie. Edwin). I haven't seen Hexxat and Imoen together, but when you rescue Imoen, she has no idea who Bodhi is and has no reason to dislike a vampire more than any other good character would. I'm personally disappointed Mazzy is the one that can't get along with Hexxat, because I wanted them running together, but it does kind of make sense- the only more logical choice is Keldorn, and his personal fight is with Viconia.
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    I think Keldorn either fights Hexxat or will eventually leave if you keep her. As will Anomen and Valygar.
  • CoutelierCoutelier Member Posts: 1,282
    SpiffyMcBang said:

    Minsc is goofy enough to accept anyone unless he has a very personal reason to dislike them (ie. Edwin). I haven't seen Hexxat and Imoen together, but when you rescue Imoen, she has no idea who Bodhi is and has no reason to dislike a vampire more than any other good character would.

    Which is a lot. And she does learn who Bodhi is pretty quickly... the person who has her soul, after all.

  • YankonisYankonis Member Posts: 8
    SpiffyMcBang said:

    Minsc is goofy enough to accept anyone unless he has a very personal reason to dislike them (ie. Edwin). I haven't seen Hexxat and Imoen together, but when you rescue Imoen, she has no idea who Bodhi is and has no reason to dislike a vampire more than any other good character would. I'm personally disappointed Mazzy is the one that can't get along with Hexxat, because I wanted them running together, but it does kind of make sense- the only more logical choice is Keldorn, and his personal fight is with Viconia.

    One interaction between Hexxat and Aerie where Aerie accuses Hexxat of killing people during the night and Hexxat's response is basically "so what?". At that point Aerie (lawful good) drops it. I just don't like that.

    Also (like I said) Minsc's racial enemy is vampires, so he does have a good reason to hate them even if the specifics are never given.
  • CoutelierCoutelier Member Posts: 1,282
    edited November 2013
    Yankonis said:

    SpiffyMcBang said:

    Minsc is goofy enough to accept anyone unless he has a very personal reason to dislike them (ie. Edwin). I haven't seen Hexxat and Imoen together, but when you rescue Imoen, she has no idea who Bodhi is and has no reason to dislike a vampire more than any other good character would. I'm personally disappointed Mazzy is the one that can't get along with Hexxat, because I wanted them running together, but it does kind of make sense- the only more logical choice is Keldorn, and his personal fight is with Viconia.

    One interaction between Hexxat and Aerie where Aerie accuses Hexxat of killing people during the night and Hexxat's response is basically "so what?". At that point Aerie (lawful good) drops it. I just don't like that.
    Although that does make some sense for Aerie; she's more a soldier than a knight or paladin. She wouldn't attack a party member without talking about her concerns to the leader first. Not even in ToB... but it does all beg the question of why so many other characters are seemingly blind to what Hexxat is doing.

  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 975
    Minsc isn't really well-equipped to deal with evil that doesn't act like Ming the Merciless. I honestly think he'd be fine with Hexxat if she didn't go out of her way to do anything evil in front of him.
  • YankonisYankonis Member Posts: 8
    Coutelier said:

    Yankonis said:

    SpiffyMcBang said:

    Minsc is goofy enough to accept anyone unless he has a very personal reason to dislike them (ie. Edwin). I haven't seen Hexxat and Imoen together, but when you rescue Imoen, she has no idea who Bodhi is and has no reason to dislike a vampire more than any other good character would. I'm personally disappointed Mazzy is the one that can't get along with Hexxat, because I wanted them running together, but it does kind of make sense- the only more logical choice is Keldorn, and his personal fight is with Viconia.

    One interaction between Hexxat and Aerie where Aerie accuses Hexxat of killing people during the night and Hexxat's response is basically "so what?". At that point Aerie (lawful good) drops it. I just don't like that.
    Although that does make some sense for Aerie; she's more a soldier than a knight or paladin. She wouldn't attack a party member without talking about her concerns to the leader first. Not even in ToB... but it does all beg the question of why so many other characters are seemingly blind to what Hexxat is doing.

    She may be naïve, but she is still a lawful good cleric. I am kind of a completionist and want to see her quest in ToB, but I have a really hard time seeing any good or even neutral party not killing the evil, murdering, vampire as soon as they first meet her.
  • CoutelierCoutelier Member Posts: 1,282
    Yankonis said:

    Coutelier said:

    Yankonis said:

    SpiffyMcBang said:

    Minsc is goofy enough to accept anyone unless he has a very personal reason to dislike them (ie. Edwin). I haven't seen Hexxat and Imoen together, but when you rescue Imoen, she has no idea who Bodhi is and has no reason to dislike a vampire more than any other good character would. I'm personally disappointed Mazzy is the one that can't get along with Hexxat, because I wanted them running together, but it does kind of make sense- the only more logical choice is Keldorn, and his personal fight is with Viconia.

    One interaction between Hexxat and Aerie where Aerie accuses Hexxat of killing people during the night and Hexxat's response is basically "so what?". At that point Aerie (lawful good) drops it. I just don't like that.
    Although that does make some sense for Aerie; she's more a soldier than a knight or paladin. She wouldn't attack a party member without talking about her concerns to the leader first. Not even in ToB... but it does all beg the question of why so many other characters are seemingly blind to what Hexxat is doing.

    She may be naïve, but she is still a lawful good cleric. I am kind of a completionist and want to see her quest in ToB, but I have a really hard time seeing any good or even neutral party not killing the evil, murdering, vampire as soon as they first meet her.
    I'm not saying she isn't Lawful Good, just that she would report first before taking matters into her own hands. But yeah, unless Hexxat were to swear off sentient beings, there's really no way she could stay in any good or neutral party.
  • SpiffyMcBangSpiffyMcBang Member Posts: 160
    I could see a neutral party not doing it, or even a generally good party with a neutral leader. General pragmatism, or even a "let her stay so we can keep an eye on her" attitude would be sufficient for most decent people to justify working with someone so powerful. The point about Aerie going to the leader first is good, too; she does that with Korgan.

    Thing is, since the devs appear to not have wanted each NPC to have more than one they-go-or-I-go rival, I'd like to know how Keldorn gets along with her. How can he fight Viconia to the death but let Hexxat's presence slide? Especially if Mazzy's paladin-ness causes her to either walk out or fight Hexxat.
  • JalilyJalily Member Posts: 4,681
    SpiffyMcBang said:

    Thing is, since the devs appear to not have wanted each NPC to have more than one they-go-or-I-go rival, I'd like to know how Keldorn gets along with her. How can he fight Viconia to the death but let Hexxat's presence slide? Especially if Mazzy's paladin-ness causes her to either walk out or fight Hexxat.

    Depending on your choices, either Keldorn will eventually attack Hexxat or one of them will leave.
  • SpiffyMcBangSpiffyMcBang Member Posts: 160
    edited November 2013
    Coutelier said:

    SpiffyMcBang said:

    Minsc is goofy enough to accept anyone unless he has a very personal reason to dislike them (ie. Edwin). I haven't seen Hexxat and Imoen together, but when you rescue Imoen, she has no idea who Bodhi is and has no reason to dislike a vampire more than any other good character would.

    Which is a lot. And she does learn who Bodhi is pretty quickly... the person who has her soul, after all.
    Right, which is a very specific reason to hate Bodhi, not necessarily all vampires. But if they're going to include a vampire NPC, either they'd have to have an enormous list of NPCs who refuse to party with her or just play it as the PC is able to get them to be ok with it, outside of Mazzy. And if they went with the former, the list would probably look like this:

    Imoen
    Minsc
    Jaheira
    Aerie
    Anomen
    Keldorn
    Cernd
    Mazzy
    Rasaad

    That's leaving out Nalia and Valygar, who you could certainly argue would be against it but seem to me like characters who could reasonably deal with it, if they can deal with other evil NPCs (Hexxat's certainly no worse a person than Dorn or Edwin). So you're looking at 45% of the NPCs who you can't use in any of the other four spots if you want to play with Hexxat. Doable? Yes, but it's not good game design to limit how easily you can use one NPC when that limitation doesn't exist for any other. Simply being a vampire isn't sufficient reason to apply that limitation.
  • YankonisYankonis Member Posts: 8
    SpiffyMcBang said:

    Coutelier said:

    SpiffyMcBang said:

    Minsc is goofy enough to accept anyone unless he has a very personal reason to dislike them (ie. Edwin). I haven't seen Hexxat and Imoen together, but when you rescue Imoen, she has no idea who Bodhi is and has no reason to dislike a vampire more than any other good character would.

    Which is a lot. And she does learn who Bodhi is pretty quickly... the person who has her soul, after all.
    Right, which is a very specific reason to hate Bodhi, not necessarily all vampires. But if they're going to include a vampire NPC, either they'd have to have an enormous list of NPCs who refuse to party with her or just play it as the PC is able to get them to be ok with it, outside of Mazzy. And if they went with the former, the list would probably look like this:

    Imoen
    Minsc
    Jaheira
    Aerie
    Anomen
    Keldorn
    Cernd
    Mazzy
    Rasaad

    That's leaving out Nalia and Valygar, who you could certainly argue would be against it but seem to me like characters who could reasonably deal with it, if they can deal with other evil NPCs (Hexxat's certainly no worse a person than Dorn or Edwin). So you're looking at 45% of the NPCs who you can't use in any of the other four spots if you want to play with Hexxat. Doable? Yes, but it's not good game design to limit how easily you can use one NPC when that limitation doesn't exist for any other. Simply being a vampire isn't sufficient reason to apply that limitation.
    Which was why I said there shouldn't have been a vampire companion in the first place. Vampires are easily one of the most feared and hated creatures in all of the realms. Also it is not about being "fair", only the most evil of players would even think about having one as a party member.
  • YankonisYankonis Member Posts: 8
    Also I noticed that having a drow companion lowers your rep by 2, but having a vampire companion....
  • CoutelierCoutelier Member Posts: 1,282
    edited November 2013
    Well, in Imoen's case, I don't think she would refuse to work outright with anyone. Just be suspicious and wary, as with Viconia, 'proper gratitude? I'd hate to think what you're idea of proper gratitude would be...' They'll work together, but there's no way Imoen and Hexxat would ever be friends any more than Nalia or Aerie would be friends with a vampire.
    Post edited by Coutelier on
  • YankonisYankonis Member Posts: 8
    Anyone try making an undead hunter and see if they get extra dialog options?
  • GamingFreakGamingFreak Member Posts: 639
    Yankonis said:

    Also I noticed that having a drow companion lowers your rep by 2, but having a vampire companion....

    It's harder to hide a drow in plain sight than it is to hide a vampire in plain sight. The reason your Rep goes down by 2 with Viconia, in my opinion, is because with people noticing a Drow is in your group, eyebrows will raise, and people would probably give snide reactions initially, but in a group of non-drows, they don't forsee some "massive drow invasion" like they would if they saw a possible "Drow spy" veiling her identity, by herself with no friends.

    With Hexxat, as long as she has the cloak of dragomir, no one's going to assume she's anything other than a mysteriously shrouded woman.
  • YankonisYankonis Member Posts: 8
    GamingFreak said:

    Yankonis said:

    Also I noticed that having a drow companion lowers your rep by 2, but having a vampire companion....

    It's harder to hide a drow in plain sight than it is to hide a vampire in plain sight. The reason your Rep goes down by 2 with Viconia, in my opinion, is because with people noticing a Drow is in your group, eyebrows will raise, and people would probably give snide reactions initially, but in a group of non-drows, they don't forsee some "massive drow invasion" like they would if they saw a possible "Drow spy" veiling her identity, by herself with no friends.

    With Hexxat, as long as she has the cloak of dragomir, no one's going to assume she's anything other than a mysteriously shrouded woman.
    Lol, they are almost the same color and under a cloak I doubt you could tell the difference. Reputation is because you are known to travel with a drow. What will happen when you are know to travel with a vampire?

  • SpiffyMcBangSpiffyMcBang Member Posts: 160
    Drow have black skin. Hexxat has brown skin. Even if you think they're almost the same- which they're really not- "almost" is enough to reasonably believe people will notice the drow and not the vampire.
  • SartainSartain Member Posts: 18
    You could assume that the reputation hit from having Viconia in your party comes from very publicly saving her from a lynch mob by killing said lynch mob. Although if I remember correctly, the reputation hit only applies if you actually let her be a part of the group, but even that can be handwaved as only being recognized as "those guys who killed a bunch of people and saved a Drow" if you are, in fact, travelling with said Drow.
  • ZwiebelchenZwiebelchen Member Posts: 86
    Does Rasaad get along with Hexxat? With all his anti-undead abilities and all...?
  • MikaelMikael Member Posts: 33
    I think Hexxat is one of the most polite npcs in the game. Sure, she is polite for her own reasons, but she is nevertheless. If you ignore the first meeting with her and if you wouldn't be able to see her alignment, I doubt many people would know she is evil. Especially if you put her beside the evil npcs. Heck, Dorn is more evil than her in every possible way.
  • filpanfilpan Member Posts: 34
    I really wanted to have her in my party, but Keldorn already left because of her and I almost lost Anomen. So I had to kick her. But I really wanted to see her quest in SoA nad Tob. So there's no chance to keep Hexxat alongside those two.
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 975
    Does that mean Charisma doesn't reduce the chance of these interparty conflicts? A shame if so, even if it is great that high charisma seems to allow you talk the conflictees out of fighting to the death. Wish that'd been in the original game.
  • SpiffyMcBangSpiffyMcBang Member Posts: 160
    Ayiekie said:

    Does that mean Charisma doesn't reduce the chance of these interparty conflicts? A shame if so, even if it is great that high charisma seems to allow you talk the conflictees out of fighting to the death. Wish that'd been in the original game.

    Allowing charisma to keep parties together that otherwise couldn't exist would basically lock the Ring of Human Influence onto every PC's finger in every game. As it is, if you don't know about the charisma effect and it's not very high, you still lose a character, it's just a question of how they leave. That might end in someone's death, but from a gaming choice perspective it's actually less severe.
  • DashivaDashiva Member Posts: 35
    Well, Minsc doesn't really bitch and moan when/if the CHARNAME decides to side with Bodhi instead of the shadow thieves so I don't really see the point here? If we're being nitpicky, he should've flat out refused to do anything in vanilla BG2 as well, if you joined with Bodhi.
  • CoutelierCoutelier Member Posts: 1,282
    Dashiva said:

    Well, Minsc doesn't really bitch and moan when/if the CHARNAME decides to side with Bodhi instead of the shadow thieves so I don't really see the point here? If we're being nitpicky, he should've flat out refused to do anything in vanilla BG2 as well, if you joined with Bodhi.

    It's a good point, but I guess OOC behavior is just more noticeable between party members as they're supposed to be around each other all the time.

    One of the problems I have is that although Aerie is Lawful Good (although a very good case can be made that without the obedience instilled in her by slavers, Neutral Good is really her natural alignment), as a gnome worshiping elf she is open minded enough to give Hexxat a chance (if Vic were less nasty, she would likely soften toward her too). She yeah, she wouldn't act the way she does unless she was sure Hexxat was still feeding off innocents, and Hex just admits it to her, so... like I said, it begs the question of why any good or most neutral character wouldn't take any notice.
  • recklessheartrecklessheart Member Posts: 692
    Although I have no objection to the other new NPCs (except if you include Baeloth, who is fricking irritating), I easily subscribe to the general sentiment of this thread that Hexxat was an unnecessarily complicated character concept, that - if it were thought out rationally and not idealistically - does not fit well with the tone of the Baldur's Gate saga at all. In addition, I agree that pretty much every party member would know better than to travel with a vampire; not least of all the protagonist: especially considering the only other experiences with vampires that they are exposed to throughout the story.
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 975
    Why is a vampire somehow worse than an insane necromancer or a blackguard, who by definition are thralls to evil demons?
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