Your Opinion about ToB

g314

I know there's already a topic about ToB (please merge if you can include this poll), but I'm curious to see what people think by voting. Post thorough reasons if you want.

I'll just quote what I said in the original thread.

g314 said:

Generally speaking this is how I can envision the whole BG saga:

- BG1 (TotSC): You don't know what's going on, then you find out you're a Bhaalspawn and your brother is hunting you because of this. Long play.
- BG2 SoA: A dude kidnapped you because you're a Bhaalspawn, then you find out the guy was merely some 'outsider' that has nothing to do with Bhaal, that was interested in your power because he's seeking revenge. Long play.
- BG2 ToB: Finally it's all about the Bhaalspawns. All of it. Short play. Wait... what???

I think that's what made ToB a bit poorer compared to the other predecessors. Granted, I like them all, but while SoA, that has little to do with the Bhaalspawn business which is a long standalone game, ToB is all about the whole issue, but came out as a short EP (and does feel like one) with a grand finale bundled with it.


Summing it up, that's how I see ToB (just my opinion):

I enjoyed Chapter 8. I liked there are some other guys out there that, like Sarevok, were after you. The story that brought you to *try* your best (because let's face it: you're powerful, but you're not almighty) to save Saradush ended up being surprising and tragic, and that gave more value to the story (especially if you're a good-aligned character). Also, the Yaga-Shura battle was simply epic to me. Some mindless hack-n-slash in Saradush (kill guards, kill more guards, kill even more guards), but other than that it was pretty good.

Chapter 9 was downright boring and redundant at best. There are some other evil Bhaalspawns here and here. Yeah, no problem. You storm their lairs like piece of cake. Slash and cut here and there. Everyone falls before your might. Finally you battle with the Bhaalspawn on duty, which is probably the only challenging part, but as for the rest... meh.

Chapter 10, logically, was the final battle, but unlike the Temple of Bhaal under Baldur's Gate and Hell in BG2, it didn't feel that scary or dangerous, but that's just me. The Ascension mod helped a little, but whatever. The finale was great, though.

The whole lot, bundled with some conveniently placed items that you could find even in a small village in the middle of nowhere. Heck, Amkethran had the most powerful items in all of Faerun, while in big cities like Baldur's Gate and Athkatla you find toys and trinkets compared. This is the recipe of what an EP is made of, and it's all over it. Watcher's Keep was OK, but I enjoyed more the dark, Diablo-like atmosphere of Durlag's Tower.

Some other reasons here: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Headscratchers/BaldursGate

Awong124

I thought it was too short. And I found a lot of the quests awarded massive experience just for the sake of awarding massive experience due to the fact that you're high level and need massive experience just to progress at a decent rate.

ajwz

The bottom option wasn't strongly worded enough

Leaf_Eater

Im glad to see nobody thinks ToB is perfect, which is the general consensus from what I've heard.

I think the ascension mod is a great tool to bring the game together.

The only time when ToB seems plausible is when I took a solo kensai/thief through the entire series from level 1 and power gamed to the end. (Thief's "Use Any Item" works pretty well on Kensai restrictions.)

Drugar

Was tricky choosing between option 2 and 3.
If I had full creative power, I'd Shift-Delete Mellissan and get something interesting in there. Anything but Mellissan.

However, I'm also happy with the addition of Ascension and Wheels of Prophecy, leading to a more climactic end fight and more freedom in Chapter 9.

I do fully understand that ToB can not ever be like BG1/2, considering that it's the final chapter, everything is going to hell, you can't just wander off into the Underdark for a month like in the original game and there are certainly no random quests to be gathered for level 20+ characters who can vaporise cities if they felt like it.

g314

ajwz said:

The bottom option wasn't strongly worded enough

Yeah, I understand where you're coming from, but let's be realistic: Overhaul have limited power to make a total, 100% rewriting of the game and plot, so I doubt there will be ways to change it altogether. Major changes may or may not be done, but as I see it, I don't think it is THAT bad. Just needs some love.

Sylonce

I chose the second option. I've only played through it two or three times, but for the most part, I thought it was solid. It was a little short, and I was a little annoyed at Mellissan, but for an expansion, meh

O_Bruce

I have voted for option nr. 2. I would have choosen answer nr. 3, but it's stupid to ask for impossible.

Lorfean

I think it's fine the way it is, though it would be cool if they added Gaider's tougher Bhaalspawn and Ascension. Would have chosen option nr. 2 if you hadn't grouped those together with new side quests -- I don't think it needs new side quests, IMO the focused, more linear structure makes sense for the story.

Alparon

It's the great ending to an awesome saga. I love it the way it is. Or maybe add some more spicy chararcters, tougher Bhaalspawn, etc.

Overall it's a pretty good game

Sceptenar

I loved BG2, probably the game I have played the most with the possible exception of Fallout 2. As for Throne of Bhaal, it isn't quite as good as BG1 and 2, but it is just an expansion after all. And if you play it with the Ascension mod I do find it quite enjoyable. It does need some work here and there, but it doesn't need a complete overhaul.

Balquo

Never finished it :S Played BG2 a few times fully, BG1 many many times, but only half or so of TOB. Don't really know what the problem was. But I'll be looking forward to playing it in BG2:EE.

Kharas

This poll need an option called "I like it and I still want more quests!!"

Because even if you like ToB.. Im pretty damn sure that most people would like more content

seeka

It wasn't given enough love during development, IIRC they were gearing up for another game so TOB was a rush to get through. I liked it, but would love to see more side quests added on. It was just too linear given the previous games. I know Beamdog can't tinker with the original too much, but some content mixed in to break up the flow would be nice.

Tris

What I would like modified is some balancing issues with the higher level abilities (the thieves come to mind), and the cheap solution of making many enemies immune to backstab that was implemented at the time.

Zeckul

All the David Gaider components are a must, and the game needs more non-linearity. Just adding some side quests would greatly improve it.

I disagree with the idea of a significant rewrite of the plot; even with its "plot holes" (what are they anyway?), it is what it is and it's too late to alter the main plot now.

Leaf_Eater

I think we should accept ToB for the way it is. and the second modders give us a better alternative we drop it like its hot.

g314

Still, we have to acknowledge that there are some people that are not OK with ToB. Perhaps I'm wrong because I'm a recent member, but I still didn't find any discussions where folks were asking about changing much of BG1 or BG2 SoA. At least, not this loud.

Honestly, I thought it was just me at first before coming here, but it seems I'm not alone. I do understand that we have to accept the game as it is, and because of that I'm not asking for a total overhaul. I didn't even include this option in the first place because I know it's downright impossible. But expanding it further, adding more dialog options and correcting inconsistencies would certainly help a lot IMHO.

@Zeckul For info about BG plot holes, see the OP link.

Zeckul

g314 said:

@Zeckul For info about BG plot holes, see the OP link.

That page has some interesting discussions about different plot elements, but doesn't report any definite and significant plot hole.

smeagolheart

My complaints based on what I've heard and experienced is TOB is just too linear and compressed. You get uber swords and kit (gear). But it doesn't mean much because the next fight you get another super sword or gear or ability. And every gardener and soldier and baker has +3 weapons.

It would be nice if the super sword was rare and having it made a big difference but when you can wait until the next fight and get something just as good you might as well just drop it on the streets.

Eldryth

I didn't like how short and linear the story was- but I loved the dungeons (especially Watcher's Keep) and the way you can find mupltiple methods of clearing quests (like the multiple ways into the Saradush dungeon, iirc) without it being a simple dialogue choice. Also, while Melissan was cool, she wasn't nearly as good of an antagonist as Irenicus or Sarevok.

shawne

All it needs is "Ascension" (and even then, only the plot-relevant mods - not everyone wants to have impossibly long and complicated battles at every turn).

I think people have a tendency to forget that ToB is an expansion pack, not a full game in itself - it's chapters 8, 9 and 10 of the overall saga, and was designed as such. Of course it's shorter, it's meant to be a continuation of events immediately after you defeat Irenicus.

The Five represent a new kind of threat in that it's the first time you're going up against a group of people who are exactly like yourself: Sarevok had underlings, Irenicus had his tricks, but you've never faced a "united" front of Bhaalspawn who want you dead.

And Melissan was, in my opinion, an excellent antagonist. Setting aside the fact that for the first time in the entire trilogy you were facing off against a female Big Bad - which, let's face it, isn't D&D's strong suit (Bodhi, anyone?) - she's also the most logical choice for the enemy you'd face at the very end, short of Bhaal himself. She was his High Priestess, she was the key to completing the plan you've known about since Candlekeep, and she manipulates you throughout the entire game.

luluscado

TOB is good but it really should have been BG3:TOB not a expansion pack

I think Mellissan is a good antagonist it was just far to obvious that she was evil when you first met her when she was supposed to be acting good. I had one conversation with her and was like, well she is defiantly a bad guy can i stab her now get it over with?

Communard

shawne said:

And Melissan was, in my opinion, an excellent antagonist. Setting aside the fact that for the first time in the entire trilogy you were facing off against a female Big Bad - which, let's face it, isn't D&D's strong suit (Bodhi, anyone?) - she's also the most logical choice for the enemy you'd face at the very end, short of Bhaal himself. She was his High Priestess, she was the key to completing the plan you've known about since Candlekeep, and she manipulates you throughout the entire game.

She manipulates you because the game forces you to let her, not because the writers made her successfully manipulate you...

shawne

Communard said:

She manipulates you because the game forces you to let her, not because the writers made her successfully manipulate you...

You could make the same claim regarding any act of deception in a video game, particularly one you've played more than once: I could kill "Koveras" in the Candlekeep library and end the game right there, except that it's a scenario where the player knows something the character couldn't. So you play along.

mister_ennui

The Ascension mod does make a signficant improvement to ToB, plus it has the bonus of being semi-official (it's Dave Gaider's work and apparently represents much of what was intended for ToB). I hope it is incorporated into BG2:EE.

Xavioria

Personally... I think (and this is just me) but I seriously think that the final chapters need some more flavor. I believe that overall, it's good. They shouldn't take too much out, just add a bit more in there.

I think, that what they should do, is allow you some more allies. The five can band together, but why can't you get your OWN bhaalspawn friends to help out as well, they, in some part, know what's going on, why can't they be saved (or destroyed later) so that you can further your own goals? I would LOVE to see a few Bhaalspawn rally with ME to beat up Melissan (Gromnir, Balthazar, and Viekang could be great components for this). Not only would this rid you of some of the linearity, but it wouldn't change the feeling of being rushed either.

Another thing that needs fixing is certain plot holes... Viekang, again... if you save him in Saradush, does that mean that he just dies somewhere else? What about the truth about your mother? Does Gorion know her or not? Does he LOVE her or not? and Imoen? Is it a little odd that she just happened to show up in candlekeep with you and Gorion? Doesn't he know about her from the get go? How come Sarevok knew about you and not her, when Irenicus (both of whom are pretty astute) could figure it out from the beginning of the second game? Although the last few bits weren't part of ToB sorry i just got a little carried away... but SERIOUSLY!!!

SOOOOO yes... sorry for my ramblings, but the main point i was getting at was just fix plot holes and take away the linearity. Yes, we have to get to the same results, but the way we roleplay it shouldn't be the same.

robinkom

I felt that, story-wise, BGII and ToB didn't live up to what the first game had done. Even with the Bhaalspawn undercurrent through BG1, it felt like the most authentic AD&D experience on a computer to that point. I was honestly more enamored with adventuring as if I were just sitting around with friends playing an actual AD&D game. Also I thought the aesthetic styling had a more accurate AD&D "feel."

When BGII rolled out, the effects of WotC's purchase of TSR became most apparent in the art and aesthetics. I speak so much of aesthetics because they go hand-in-hand with the narrative and storyline. Despite its more polished gameplay, the feel of BGII & ToB did a lot to remove me from my personal investment in the story which is probably why I don't remember much of it. But I can spin a yarn or two about BG1's story for sure.

Everything in BGII/ToB, in my opinion, looked like it had been ripped straight out of Magic The Gathering. Despite being labeled as a "2.5 Edition" ruleset because of additions of things from the then-new 3rd Edition rules, it was still more TSR's AD&D but the look and feel of that was gone. That's not to say I still didn't manage to have fun with it, I just didn't have as much fun as with the first one.

I don't know, maybe it was me. Even today, I have a preference to the much older D&D rules and the art styles that were frequently employed in the 80s and early-90s. I'm so very much looking forward to this Enhanced Edition... a lot of which has to do with not having to install the original and expansion pack from SIX bloody CD's ever again.

Communard

shawne said:

Communard said:

She manipulates you because the game forces you to let her, not because the writers made her successfully manipulate you...

You could make the same claim regarding any act of deception in a video game, particularly one you've played more than once: I could kill "Koveras" in the Candlekeep library and end the game right there, except that it's a scenario where the player knows something the character couldn't. So you play along.

Koveras was not the main plot, and you have an opportunity to brush Koveras off suspiciously in dialogue, he simply flees if you attempt to initiate combat, but it can be done. He does not reappear multiple times, it is not the main plot of the game that you have to trust him and you get the opportunity not to trust him. So it is completely different. There is even slightly different dialoge later depending whether you trusted him or not. Honestly every character I've played with INT over 12 has worked out the name reversal and told "Koveras" to piss off. Not to mention you don't even know that Sarevok is the main villain at this point in the plot.

shawne

Xavioria said:

I think, that what they should do, is allow you some more allies. The five can band together, but why can't you get your OWN bhaalspawn friends to help out as well, they, in some part, know what's going on, why can't they be saved (or destroyed later) so that you can further your own goals? I would LOVE to see a few Bhaalspawn rally with ME to beat up Melissan (Gromnir, Balthazar, and Viekang could be great components for this). Not only would this rid you of some of the linearity, but it wouldn't change the feeling of being rushed either.

Unsurprisingly, there's a mod for that. Two, actually. "Ascension" allows you to recruit either Balthazar or Bodhi (depending on your alignment) as you enter the Throne of Bhaal.

After that, there's the "Turnabout" mod: as you sever Melissan's connections to the Bhaalspawn essences, you gain the ability to resurrect some of your old comrades such as Dynaheir, Khalid and even Gorion to help you. One of the options is to resurrect your mother Alianna, a Deathstalker cleric who has some (voiced!) dialogue with you about what really happened.

Quartz

I mean, it was fun. I really liked some of the high level abilities; some were utter god-modding so that's a little stupid, but others were really creative. The storyline was fun to play through once or twice but then it got old FAST. Mellisan is effing annoying. Lots of people EXPECTED to be betrayed; I *didn't,* but I still didn't care when she did. I was like "oh, huh, okay. Well time to kill her I guess." Which is what the game TRAINS you to do. Run to point A to point B, killing endless waves of enemies who drop +3 everything.

So I had fun with it, and I was always pleasantly surprised with how long it was; especially compared to ToTSC. They called it an expansion, I've almost always considered it like a BG2.5 to be honest. And like I said, fun to be had, but it's ridiculous and non-strategic and very silly. You have to be in the right mood, haha.