Koveras was not the main plot, and you have an opportunity to brush Koveras off suspiciously in dialogue, he simply flees if you attempt to initiate combat, but it can be done. He does not reappear multiple times, it is not the main plot of the game that you have to trust him and you get the opportunity not to trust him. So it is completely different.
How is it different? Regardless of your intelligence, your charisma or your reputation, and whether you trust "Koveras" or not, he still frames you for Rieltar's murder. He still arranges for you to be thrown in the Catacombs even if people are singing your praises from Nashkel to Baldur's Gate. And you can't put up a fight, or run, or even use the letters you may have collected from Sarevok's minions (which basically spell out his plot) as evidence to clear your name. The next chapter of the story takes place in the Catacombs, so that's where you have to go.
The situation in Saradush is the same: Melissan has arranged the circumstances so that no matter what you do, she wins. Even if you don't trust her, you'll do what she wants either because you're Good and you want to stop the Five from hurting more innocent people, or you're Evil and looking for payback after Illasera's attempt on your life. Even if you had the option of just walking away, Melissan would still win: the Five annihilate the rest of their siblings, then they turn on each other, and then she steps in to kill the last and absorb the Bhaalspawn essence.
Well, I've only played TOB once. This is not because I don't like it; in it's defense, I've only played BG2 twice, the first time up to a little TOB, the second all the way through the trilogy. I liked it well enough, but was kind of surprised at its short length.
A quest I would like to see added- if anything- would be a long quest through historic Time of Troubles locations, discovering more about the cult of Bhaal, visiting the temple of your birth, and truly understanding from whence you came. This would be a sort of personal journey, like the pocket plane events, but more focused- a journey made to understand godhood, thus making the player's conquest over the other fool Bhaalspawn more worthwhile. (I'm picturing something kind of like how Harry Potter journeyed through Voldemort's past in order to understand him and therefore defeat him, if that makes sense.)
Koveras was not the main plot, and you have an opportunity to brush Koveras off suspiciously in dialogue, he simply flees if you attempt to initiate combat, but it can be done. He does not reappear multiple times, it is not the main plot of the game that you have to trust him and you get the opportunity not to trust him. So it is completely different.
How is it different? Regardless of your intelligence, your charisma or your reputation, and whether you trust "Koveras" or not, he still frames you for Rieltar's murder. He still arranges for you to be thrown in the Catacombs even if people are singing your praises from Nashkel to Baldur's Gate. And you can't put up a fight, or run, or even use the letters you may have collected from Sarevok's minions (which basically spell out his plot) as evidence to clear your name. The next chapter of the story takes place in the Catacombs, so that's where you have to go.
The situation in Saradush is the same: Melissan has arranged the circumstances so that no matter what you do, she wins. Even if you don't trust her, you'll do what she wants either because you're Good and you want to stop the Five from hurting more innocent people, or you're Evil and looking for payback after Illasera's attempt on your life. Even if you had the option of just walking away, Melissan would still win: the Five annihilate the rest of their siblings, then they turn on each other, and then she steps in to kill the last and absorb the Bhaalspawn essence.
Trusting Koveras is not neccessary for Sarevok to frame you for Rieltar's murder. Trusting Mellissan is neccessary for any of her plan to work at all. The story progresses whether you mistrust Koveras or not, the story could not progress if an option to not trust Mellissan was added.
Plus, again, Koveras is a minor detail and could easily not have interacted with the PC in the game at all. Needless to say, that is not the case with Mellissan.
Trusting Koveras is not neccessary for Sarevok to frame you for Rieltar's murder. Trusting Mellissan is neccessary for any of her plan to work at all. The story progresses whether you mistrust Koveras or not, the story could not progress if an option to not trust Mellissan was added.
Melissan's plan doesn't require you to trust her. Let's say you have the option of siding with Gromnir instead of killing him - the Five still want you dead, Yaga-Shura's army is still parked outside Saradush, and the walls are coming down. You'll still go after the Five for whatever reason is compatible with your alignment.
The only thing that would actually change if you could reject Melissan outright is that you'd have no reason to go to Amkethran and meet Balthazar. So what? He was planning on killing himself anyway - and then the final battle proceeds just as it did before.
I'm a big fan of choice and multiple outcomes in video games, but since you can only have so many variables in play (particularly in a game that came out in 2001), I'd just as soon stick to the choices that really matter.
Trusting Koveras is not neccessary for Sarevok to frame you for Rieltar's murder. Trusting Mellissan is neccessary for any of her plan to work at all. The story progresses whether you mistrust Koveras or not, the story could not progress if an option to not trust Mellissan was added.
Melissan's plan doesn't require you to trust her. Let's say you have the option of siding with Gromnir instead of killing him - the Five still want you dead, Yaga-Shura's army is still parked outside Saradush, and the walls are coming down. You'll still go after the Five for whatever reason is compatible with your alignment.
The only thing that would actually change if you could reject Melissan outright is that you'd have no reason to go to Amkethran and meet Balthazar. So what? He was planning on killing himself anyway - and then the final battle proceeds just as it did before.
I'm a big fan of choice and multiple outcomes in video games, but since you can only have so many variables in play (particularly in a game that came out in 2001), I'd just as soon stick to the choices that really matter.
If those were options then it would have been awesome. That is what great RPGs are like, the grand narrative may ultimately be similar, but there are a thousand different permutations of the same story. Some might call it the illusion of choice, and maybe it is, but an illusion is definitely better than simply no choice at all. What would be your criteria of a choice that "really mattered"?
Just imagine for a moment, if instead of being given the situation that Irenicus was holding Imoen in Spellhold and being given the choice of how to get there, you had been railroaded there by Bodhi and you had no option to question her at any point. Would that have been as fun as the original? Even though all roads ultimately lead to Spellhold, that is not a reason to simply have a single road.
If those were options then it would have been awesome. That is what great RPGs are like, the grand narrative may ultimately be similar, but there are a thousand different permutations of the same story. Some might call it the illusion of choice, and maybe it is, but an illusion is definitely better than simply no choice at all. What would be your criteria of a choice that "really mattered"?
For this particular discussion, I see a choice that "really matters" as a choice that changes your experience of the story in some way. The example you bring up of siding with Bodhi or Aran Linvail is a very good one, because it affects the sequence of events that follow: if you side with Bodhi, you don't have to face her vampires just yet, but when the time comes for you to attack her you won't have the Shadow Thieves to back you up. If you side with Linvail, you're thrust into a fight you may not be ready to handle (level-draining, etc.)
But rejecting Melissan or seeing through her deception is completely irrelevant, because it would have no such effect on story variables: you tell her to get lost because you have a bad feeling about her, she leaves, and... then what? Gromnir still dies when Saradush falls, so it's not like you gain a new ally; you can find the surviving members of the Five without Melissan's help; and in the end you're still up in the Throne of Bhaal with her.
It would affect gameplay about as much as who you side with in athkatla. You still do a series of sidequests, you still ultimately go to Spellhold, what's the difference? You still have to face Irenicus in Hell, what does it matter if you are good or evil? Rieltar still dies whether you kill him or not, so let's give the player no choice but to kill him! The idea that because events have to unfold in a broadly similar way so that a coherent game can be designed means that linearity is acceptable is one I will never agree with. Having literally no alternative options to the linear story with slightly rephrased dialogue options that ultimately all say the same thing is not the level of quality roleplaying I expect from the Baldur's Gate series, and ToB has limited replay value for that reason.
Basically what I'm saying is that a good RPG videogame gets around the limited possibilities of a videogame story by giving a player several paths that ultimately lead to the same goal and that can be assembled in a different manner each time, creating a good roleplay experience and replay value. The player feels like whatever sort of character they are playing, they can act in a way that is true to that character. The fact that whatever kind of character you are you will be fighting roughly the same bosses is irrelevant, since an adventure is about the protagonist and his journey, not the villain and the ending.
And Melissan was, in my opinion, an excellent antagonist. Setting aside the fact that for the first time in the entire trilogy you were facing off against a female Big Bad - which, let's face it, isn't D&D's strong suit (Bodhi, anyone?) - she's also the most logical choice for the enemy you'd face at the very end, short of Bhaal himself. She was his High Priestess, she was the key to completing the plan you've known about since Candlekeep, and she manipulates you throughout the entire game.
She manipulates you because the game forces you to let her, not because the writers made her successfully manipulate you...
I agree with @Communard on this. It is a cop out. You follow along the path the designers have forced you down and then whoah surprise (*groan*) it was this previously minor character from left field that has been the evil one all along!
At least with Sarevok and Irenicus you knew what they were doing and they were evil the whole time not "retconned" into fitting the evil events that had transpired.
They might as well have said the whole thing was caused by Bhaal's cat fluffy, see him over there in the corner, he's evil and he's about to get bhaals essences!! And then after you defeat fluffy it was actually Bhaal's evil half-brother-in-law Stan who was the evil one pulling the strings all along! Aren't you surprised!!! You only thought you knew Stan from the letter he was mentioned in but no he's the evil one!
Okay firstly, I tried ascension and turnabout. Turnabout had a really interesting concept... although (not trying to be mean) but my point wasn't to make the last fight more interesting... it was to add some choices and remove a bit of linearity without prolonging the final chapters.
Secondly... I'm a bit of a half wit so I will need you to explain to me how anyone can be someone's "half-brother-in-law" ;P
and Thirdly, my comment was also for clearing up some lose ends... albeit small... Personally, I feel like it was bullcrap that EVERY single extra/nameless bhaalspawn just HAPPENED to be in Saradush, and EVERY SINGLE ONE gets butchered... not a SINGLE one escapes? As many as there are... I find that hard to believe.
And Gromnir's a badass... Him and his Cadre should be with me when I beat that Ginger's ass!!
Okay firstly, I tried ascension and turnabout. Turnabout had a really interesting concept... although (not trying to be mean) but my point wasn't to make the last fight more interesting... it was to add some choices and remove a bit of linearity without prolonging the final chapters.
Secondly... I'm a bit of a half wit so I will need you to explain to me how anyone can be someone's "half-brother-in-law" ;P
and Thirdly, my comment was also for clearing up some lose ends... albeit small... Personally, I feel like it was bullcrap that EVERY single extra/nameless bhaalspawn just HAPPENED to be in Saradush, and EVERY SINGLE ONE gets butchered... not a SINGLE one escapes? As many as there are... I find that hard to believe.
And Gromnir's a badass... Him and his Cadre should be with me when I beat that Ginger's ass!!
3 of these are true anyway... half brother-in-law 1.The half brother of one's spouse. 2.The husband of one's half-sister. 3.The husband of the half-sister of one's spouse. 4. A half orc or half elven brother in law??
Anyway the point I was trying to make was you could retcon anyone into being the villian after the fact if you wanted to and call it "A twist!"
and Thirdly, my comment was also for clearing up some lose ends... albeit small... Personally, I feel like it was bullcrap that EVERY single extra/nameless bhaalspawn just HAPPENED to be in Saradush, and EVERY SINGLE ONE gets butchered... not a SINGLE one escapes? As many as there are... I find that hard to believe.
Considering that you can actually save Viekang's life by making him teleport...yeah.
I've said it elsewhere, but ToB would have been much better is SoA hadn't taken you all the way up to level 20. One of the things that makes the original Baldur's Gate great to me is that Bioware actually did a good job of pacing the power curve. The game felt like an AD&D adventure. In SoA, they kind of tossed that to the side and brought you all the way to 20ish, which left nothing for ToB other than Epic Levels, something that D&D has never been that good at.
Even then, that would not have been a huge problem if the game had been heavily story/dialogue focused(like the best parts of Torment), instead of the inexplicable story light slugfest that we got. ToB isn't horrible, but it is a bit of a waste of good plot material. A full game that explored the very nature of being a Bhaalspawn would have been amazing.
I didn't vote for any of the options, as I'm not really for changing anything about ToB because it's premise doesn't exactly thrill me from the get-go. While it is logical that ToB is uber high level (where else is there to go by then? the PC is basically a demi-god), for my taste it's getting absurdly high by that point. The final battle is certainly very challenging. It typically requires quite a number of reloads for me. And story-wise the Mellisan plot is a respectable enough cap to the experience of game series. But that level of play just isn't as satisfying to me as low-to-mid level play. So I'm sort of 'meh' about this.
Another thing that needs fixing is certain plot holes... Viekang, again... if you save him in Saradush, does that mean that he just dies somewhere else? What about the truth about your mother? Does Gorion know her or not? Does he LOVE her or not? and Imoen? Is it a little odd that she just happened to show up in candlekeep with you and Gorion? Doesn't he know about her from the get go? How come Sarevok knew about you and not her, when Irenicus (both of whom are pretty astute) could figure it out from the beginning of the second game? Although the last few bits weren't part of ToB sorry i just got a little carried away... but SERIOUSLY!!!
When I got to the Throne I wondered about Viekang as well. What about him? Is he safe and sound? Did I fail to save him in Chapter 8 then? Are ALL of the Bhaalspawn except me and Imoen dead by now? And basing on these points, what kind of backstory would the new game provide? Many points I wish the original devs would have deepened further in ToB, or even SoA.
Some food for thought to Beamdog, I hope they would consider at least something. If I were in their shoes, I'd advertise BG2EE focusing also on these aspects, like they're doing now with the new characters to expand BG1. Because of this, I definitely expect they're considering something for ToB as well. I'd be disappointed if they wouldn't...
Unsurprisingly, there's a mod for that. Two, actually. "Ascension" allows you to recruit either Balthazar or Bodhi (depending on your alignment) as you enter the Throne of Bhaal.
After that, there's the "Turnabout" mod: as you sever Melissan's connections to the Bhaalspawn essences, you gain the ability to resurrect some of your old comrades such as Dynaheir, Khalid and even Gorion to help you. One of the options is to resurrect your mother Alianna, a Deathstalker cleric who has some (voiced!) dialogue with you about what really happened.
I tried "Turnabout" last time I played BG, and I was pretty impressed by it. First of all, because it connects long-finished parts of the entire story that were quickly wrapped up, and secondly because it adds some very interesting what-ifs and dialogues with these characters (I tried them all, but I preferred Gorion). Another mod I tried is "Redemption" that lets you save Irenicus and add him to your party, as long you have at least one free slot, otherwise he will attack you.
The way I see these mods, IMO, are the proof that ToB is urging to fill these gaps and provide a less shallow gaming experience. Not just at the final battle, but also in Chapter 9. Chapter 8 is good, though, but I would like some more dialogue options and less mindless killing and easy +3 weapons. See below.
I mean, it was fun. I really liked some of the high level abilities; some were utter god-modding so that's a little stupid, but others were really creative. The storyline was fun to play through once or twice but then it got old FAST. Mellisan is effing annoying. Lots of people EXPECTED to be betrayed; I *didn't,* but I still didn't care when she did. I was like "oh, huh, okay. Well time to kill her I guess." Which is what the game TRAINS you to do. Run to point A to point B, killing endless waves of enemies who drop +3 everything.
This. Very well written and to the point. That's what I felt when playing ToB, all the time. Someone is threatening you? Kill them! Someone thinks you're a threat? Wipe them out! Someone is bullying some other guy? Teach them a permanent lesson! Someone kidnapped somebody's child? Let them taste your steel! Someone is betraying you? Guess what... It gets old really fast!
And guess what again: except the last one, these are all from Saradush alone! Not even the whole chapter! Rinse and repeat again to Chapter 9. I found many ways to avoid battle when possible in SoA, and none in ToB... but, hey, more +3 weapons means more moolah, so it's all fine... not!
I've said it elsewhere, but ToB would have been much better is SoA hadn't taken you all the way up to level 20. One of the things that makes the original Baldur's Gate great to me is that Bioware actually did a good job of pacing the power curve. The game felt like an AD&D adventure. In SoA, they kind of tossed that to the side and brought you all the way to 20ish, which left nothing for ToB other than Epic Levels, something that D&D has never been that good at.
Even then, that would not have been a huge problem if the game had been heavily story/dialogue focused(like the best parts of Torment), instead of the inexplicable story light slugfest that we got. ToB isn't horrible, but it is a bit of a waste of good plot material. A full game that explored the very nature of being a Bhaalspawn would have been amazing.
Excellent post. I loved BG1 because of the slow-paced curve that makes you feel like you've deserved to level up and little by little you're getting more and more powerful. BG1 taught me that 'patience is a virtue,' 'all in due time.'
SoA was OK with the pacing, but since you get so much XP you'd touch the experience cap before entering Ust Natha (I think). ToB is still OK when it set the cap to 8M, but since it was too short you HAD to get there ASAP. So here we are.
I believe the biggest reasons for what happened with ToB was time constraints. That has to be it. I'm hoping that even now if they have time constraints... they fix things, or add to things or something. Hopefully the contracts give them more leeway and more ability to add effort into ToB writings and the like... I rarely finish ToB, MAINLY because the interest is usually lost by then because the story becomes linear and it seems like that last chapter was written by someone else
in general, i think all of expansions suffer from the same pitfall (Tob, Hotu, Motb etc.) and that is one epic fight after another with increasingly epic story and power levels that just gets ridiculous in the end. it lacks rhythm and time to allow all the revelations to sink in, and some time in between all the epic locations and events to make you appreciate your achievements. no, its one chat with gods after another, dragons come at you in hoards, traveling planes is easy as picking your nose etc.
i realize the setting is high fantasy but the sheer amount of power and how you all the sudden experience almost 85% of what setting has to offer in such concentrated amount of time, takes away from impact it has.
planescape torment executed this best by far in my opinion. player had enough time to figure the story for himself before the game hit him with the facts. playing with zerthimons circle was equally intriguing as the main objective. some completely unrelated events had some small but important revelations to offer, not necessarily about the main objective.
also, the true epic element was not only in epic encounters and insane power levels. it was in equal measure in realizing the smallest of details, with lot of implying involved, leaving it to the imagination of the player.
Comments
The situation in Saradush is the same: Melissan has arranged the circumstances so that no matter what you do, she wins. Even if you don't trust her, you'll do what she wants either because you're Good and you want to stop the Five from hurting more innocent people, or you're Evil and looking for payback after Illasera's attempt on your life. Even if you had the option of just walking away, Melissan would still win: the Five annihilate the rest of their siblings, then they turn on each other, and then she steps in to kill the last and absorb the Bhaalspawn essence.
A quest I would like to see added- if anything- would be a long quest through historic Time of Troubles locations, discovering more about the cult of Bhaal, visiting the temple of your birth, and truly understanding from whence you came. This would be a sort of personal journey, like the pocket plane events, but more focused- a journey made to understand godhood, thus making the player's conquest over the other fool Bhaalspawn more worthwhile. (I'm picturing something kind of like how Harry Potter journeyed through Voldemort's past in order to understand him and therefore defeat him, if that makes sense.)
Plus, again, Koveras is a minor detail and could easily not have interacted with the PC in the game at all. Needless to say, that is not the case with Mellissan.
The only thing that would actually change if you could reject Melissan outright is that you'd have no reason to go to Amkethran and meet Balthazar. So what? He was planning on killing himself anyway - and then the final battle proceeds just as it did before.
I'm a big fan of choice and multiple outcomes in video games, but since you can only have so many variables in play (particularly in a game that came out in 2001), I'd just as soon stick to the choices that really matter.
Just imagine for a moment, if instead of being given the situation that Irenicus was holding Imoen in Spellhold and being given the choice of how to get there, you had been railroaded there by Bodhi and you had no option to question her at any point. Would that have been as fun as the original? Even though all roads ultimately lead to Spellhold, that is not a reason to simply have a single road.
But rejecting Melissan or seeing through her deception is completely irrelevant, because it would have no such effect on story variables: you tell her to get lost because you have a bad feeling about her, she leaves, and... then what? Gromnir still dies when Saradush falls, so it's not like you gain a new ally; you can find the surviving members of the Five without Melissan's help; and in the end you're still up in the Throne of Bhaal with her.
Basically what I'm saying is that a good RPG videogame gets around the limited possibilities of a videogame story by giving a player several paths that ultimately lead to the same goal and that can be assembled in a different manner each time, creating a good roleplay experience and replay value. The player feels like whatever sort of character they are playing, they can act in a way that is true to that character. The fact that whatever kind of character you are you will be fighting roughly the same bosses is irrelevant, since an adventure is about the protagonist and his journey, not the villain and the ending.
At least with Sarevok and Irenicus you knew what they were doing and they were evil the whole time not "retconned" into fitting the evil events that had transpired.
They might as well have said the whole thing was caused by Bhaal's cat fluffy, see him over there in the corner, he's evil and he's about to get bhaals essences!! And then after you defeat fluffy it was actually Bhaal's evil half-brother-in-law Stan who was the evil one pulling the strings all along! Aren't you surprised!!! You only thought you knew Stan from the letter he was mentioned in but no he's the evil one!
Secondly... I'm a bit of a half wit so I will need you to explain to me how anyone can be someone's "half-brother-in-law" ;P
and Thirdly, my comment was also for clearing up some lose ends... albeit small... Personally, I feel like it was bullcrap that EVERY single extra/nameless bhaalspawn just HAPPENED to be in Saradush, and EVERY SINGLE ONE gets butchered... not a SINGLE one escapes? As many as there are... I find that hard to believe.
And Gromnir's a badass... Him and his Cadre should be with me when I beat that Ginger's ass!!
half brother-in-law
1.The half brother of one's spouse.
2.The husband of one's half-sister.
3.The husband of the half-sister of one's spouse.
4. A half orc or half elven brother in law??
Anyway the point I was trying to make was you could retcon anyone into being the villian after the fact if you wanted to and call it "A twist!"
See this link for more reading:
Evil all along (variation)
edit: maybe these also
Devil in Plain Sight
Most Definitely Not A Villain
Even then, that would not have been a huge problem if the game had been heavily story/dialogue focused(like the best parts of Torment), instead of the inexplicable story light slugfest that we got. ToB isn't horrible, but it is a bit of a waste of good plot material. A full game that explored the very nature of being a Bhaalspawn would have been amazing.
Some food for thought to Beamdog, I hope they would consider at least something. If I were in their shoes, I'd advertise BG2EE focusing also on these aspects, like they're doing now with the new characters to expand BG1. Because of this, I definitely expect they're considering something for ToB as well. I'd be disappointed if they wouldn't... I tried "Turnabout" last time I played BG, and I was pretty impressed by it. First of all, because it connects long-finished parts of the entire story that were quickly wrapped up, and secondly because it adds some very interesting what-ifs and dialogues with these characters (I tried them all, but I preferred Gorion). Another mod I tried is "Redemption" that lets you save Irenicus and add him to your party, as long you have at least one free slot, otherwise he will attack you.
The way I see these mods, IMO, are the proof that ToB is urging to fill these gaps and provide a less shallow gaming experience. Not just at the final battle, but also in Chapter 9. Chapter 8 is good, though, but I would like some more dialogue options and less mindless killing and easy +3 weapons. See below. This. Very well written and to the point. That's what I felt when playing ToB, all the time. Someone is threatening you? Kill them! Someone thinks you're a threat? Wipe them out! Someone is bullying some other guy? Teach them a permanent lesson! Someone kidnapped somebody's child? Let them taste your steel! Someone is betraying you? Guess what... It gets old really fast!
And guess what again: except the last one, these are all from Saradush alone! Not even the whole chapter! Rinse and repeat again to Chapter 9. I found many ways to avoid battle when possible in SoA, and none in ToB... but, hey, more +3 weapons means more moolah, so it's all fine... not! Excellent post. I loved BG1 because of the slow-paced curve that makes you feel like you've deserved to level up and little by little you're getting more and more powerful. BG1 taught me that 'patience is a virtue,' 'all in due time.'
SoA was OK with the pacing, but since you get so much XP you'd touch the experience cap before entering Ust Natha (I think). ToB is still OK when it set the cap to 8M, but since it was too short you HAD to get there ASAP. So here we are.
in general, i think all of expansions suffer from the same pitfall (Tob, Hotu, Motb etc.) and that is one epic fight after another with increasingly epic story and power levels that just gets ridiculous in the end. it lacks rhythm and time to allow all the revelations to sink in, and some time in between all the epic locations and events to make you appreciate your achievements. no, its one chat with gods after another, dragons come at you in hoards, traveling planes is easy as picking your nose etc.
i realize the setting is high fantasy but the sheer amount of power and how you all the sudden experience almost 85% of what setting has to offer in such concentrated amount of time, takes away from impact it has.
planescape torment executed this best by far in my opinion. player had enough time to figure the story for himself before the game hit him with the facts. playing with zerthimons circle was equally intriguing as the main objective. some completely unrelated events had some small but important revelations to offer, not necessarily about the main objective.
also, the true epic element was not only in epic encounters and insane power levels. it was in equal measure in realizing the smallest of details, with lot of implying involved, leaving it to the imagination of the player.