So, Viconia romance.

Madhax

Late to the party here. I've never romanced Viconia, for various reasons. Her romance bugged out for me once, and I usually don't play evil anyway. I didn't intend to this time either, but upon realizing that Hexxat doesn't bat for that team, I changed course.

First impression: And people call AERIE whiny?

Holy crap, Viconia is the most immature, emotionally manipulative, emotionally scarred, whiny wreck I've ever had the displeasure of talking to, and I'm surprised I hadn't heard about it before experiencing it for myself. Every talk is her trying to manipulate the PC into... I don't even know. It's like she can't NOT mess with a male's head. It's really annoying.

What's worse, is my own dialogue options are extremely narrow. I can either call her a bitch or be some stoic punching bag for her to work her issues out into. It's like high school all over again.

I always play as straight men in these games, but I think I need to roll an evil female PC to see if Hexxat can carry on a conversation without telling me about burning a farmer's family alive and then nailing half of Amn just to try to get a reaction.

Itstucktwice

My wings bro. They cut off my wings. This one time...I had wings...but they cut them off. I remember what it like to fly...and have wings...which I used for flying. WIIIIIIIIIIINGS. Also I'm pregnant.

Aranthys

Well, Aerie is a whiny little girl
Viconia is a manipulative wench
Jaheira is a snarky abusive mature woman
Neera ... is... Eh. heh... HEH. You'll find out.

Heh ! ... Neera ... romance.. HEH !

Aranthys

Note that you gotta give some props to BG2 writers : All girls are crazy.
They at least got that part right.

Schneidend

Madhax said:

Late to the party here. I've never romanced Viconia, for various reasons. Her romance bugged out for me once, and I usually don't play evil anyway. I didn't intend to this time either, but upon realizing that Hexxat doesn't bat for that team, I changed course.

First impression: And people call AERIE whiny?

Holy crap, Viconia is the most immature, emotionally manipulative, emotionally scarred, whiny wreck I've ever had the displeasure of talking to, and I'm surprised I hadn't heard about it before experiencing it for myself. Every talk is her trying to manipulate the PC into... I don't even know. It's like she can't NOT mess with a male's head. It's really annoying.

What's worse, is my own dialogue options are extremely narrow. I can either call her a bitch or be some stoic punching bag for her to work her issues out into. It's like high school all over again.

I always play as straight men in these games, but I think I need to roll an evil female PC to see if Hexxat can carry on a conversation without telling me about burning a farmer's family alive and then nailing half of Amn just to try to get a reaction.

In her defense, you, as CHARNAME, a complete enigma to Viconia. She is not used to not being prejudiced against on the surface. Whereas virtually all the other party members in BG2 look at and speak to her with derision, CHARNAME does not (at least, not until you actually tell her to shut up).

Also, you can pick a few of the options to call her a bitch without breaking things off. Just don't pick the ones that tell her to get lost or that you can't handle it.

Itstucktwice said:

My wings bro. They cut off my wings. This one time...I had wings...but they cut them off. I remember what it like to fly...and have wings...which I used for flying. WIIIIIIIIIIINGS. Also I'm pregnant.

Let's cut a few limbs off of you, and see if you don't lament their absence.

nano

Yeah, if this was real life I'd have sent her packing a long time ago. I guess charname just has a thing for broken girls.

reedmilfam

@nano - In real life, girls with issues are not good coupling material. In literature/film or whatnot, it's seen as a way to heal the other person (IMO a bad relationship foundation, but it is what it is). This is why they it comes out the way it does. Similar to Anomen - if you can stomach him

apparently, CHARFEMME makes him learn to be less of a prick

nano

I suppose it's an easy way to make clear that the relationship is having an effect. It's hard to convince readers that the affection is genuine in a limited amount of time because real life relationships are built over time on trust and lots and lots of interaction. So a transformation is a good way to demonstrate the sincerity of the other person without going through all that even if it's unrealistic.

sffrrrom

Aerie's relationship has a pretty real effect when she pops out your spawn - especially if you remove her from the party afterwards. Talk about mirroring real life.

Duron

You mistake whiny with defensive. You forgot what she was through and what she is still going through. She is an ass towards you because she is used to that, that all surfacers treat her as evil outsider, dangerous and murderer., As drow who xept for quite few who don't follow Lolth have no real notion of what love is I can understand her defensive posture. They do have some affection but it is always clouded by what is best for them themselves, and all males are discarded instantly.
Since she came to surface all she had going for her was hatred from all around, judgement and in some cases taking advantage and rape (farmer thing), and reason she had to leave to surface was cause she showed some affection and protection to those who were unworthy in the eyes of other drow.
So after that, and knowing that, yes I will cut her a lot of slack, as a good party I will teach her how and what to do, show affection, understanding and I do believe she will come through in the end, cause like I said many times before, she is not evil, she just doesn't know any better.

Unlike Aerie who had affection, had protection, yes she lost her wings... YEARS ago and she still cries about it after she was guarded and protected in circus under her "uncle". Every conversation with Aerie is her crying like a little whelp, Vico on the other hand is testing you, trying to poke a nerve as you are a compleate mystery to her. Remember, she never experienced affection, EVER before in her life and someone going out of their way to do that is incredibly strange to her.

So in the end, I'll take fucked up defensive Vico over whiny crybaby Aerie any day of the week.

FinaLfront

Schneidend said:

Let's cut a few limbs off of you, and see if you don't lament their absence.

Let's cut a few limbs off, then stick you in a community where everyone has the same missing limbs, and see how cool it is to bring it up all the time.

nano

@Duron It's understandable why she's a bitch, but the fact is that she still is a bitch and not the type of person I'd want to date. That said I romance her anyways because I like her from an outside perspective. In BG1 she actually was quite a nice person but that changed in BG2.

And I think she is evil, at least until charname comes along. She's done her own share of evil deeds without any remorse, and one baby isn't enough to turn that around. "It's my culture and I didn't know better" isn't an excuse in Faerun where entire cultures can be good or evil, and if your culture is evil and you go along with it then too bad, you're evil too.

Schneidend

FinaLfront said:

Let's cut a few limbs off, then stick you in a community where everyone has the same missing limbs, and see how cool it is to bring it up all the time.

So your argument essentially boils down to "First World Problems"? Good to know.

She has a legitimate handicap, she is missing something integral to her racial identity, and she isn't happy about it. She was also kidnapped, imprisoned, tortured, and more than likely touched inappropriately. What's worse, that treatment, by the "community where everyone has the same missing limbs," is what LEAD to her having her wings sawed off. But, yeah, I guess it would make sense for her to just get over it, because the rest of us can't fly. Oh, wait, we never COULD fly, so we don't know what it's like to have that taken away.

Ironmancal2131

I was about to post, but then saw Schneidend said all that I was going to say. I never understood all the Aerie hate. She went through terrible stuff that happened because she tried to do something good. In my opinion, she has a right to be "whiny".

Disgruntler

Madhax said:

Holy crap, Viconia is the most immature, emotionally manipulative, emotionally scarred, whiny wreck I've ever had the displeasure of talking to, and I'm surprised I hadn't heard about it before experiencing it for myself. Every talk is her trying to manipulate the PC into... I don't even know. It's like she can't NOT mess with a male's head. It's really annoying.

You got it exactly right. Viconia is Drow and a former priestes of Lolth to booth. She's got serious issues and she is evil for a reason. Romancing her is a chore and takes a lot of dedication. Which is a rather realistic touch.
Unlike Aerie however, she doesn't immediately jammer about her issues even before you take her in your party. She tells you about her wings while she is still in oger form.

Madhax said:

First impression: And people call AERIE whiny?

You could say the writer of BG2

winged it

FinaLfront

@Scheidend Cool story, however, we know all that already. It doesn't change the fact that she's annoying.

Schneidend

FinaLfront said:

@Scheidend Cool story, however, we know all that already. It doesn't change the fact that she's annoying.

Oh, it's a FACT, is it? Also good to know.

Disgruntler

Aerie or Viconia?

FinaLfront

@Scheidend If you honestly don't find her annoying. I applaud you

Duron

nano said:

@Duron It's understandable why she's a bitch, but the fact is that she still is a bitch and not the type of person I'd want to date. That said I romance her anyways because I like her from an outside perspective. In BG1 she actually was quite a nice person but that changed in BG2.

And I think she is evil, at least until charname comes along. She's done her own share of evil deeds without any remorse, and one baby isn't enough to turn that around. "It's my culture and I didn't know better" isn't an excuse in Faerun where entire cultures can be good or evil, and if your culture is evil and you go along with it then too bad, you're evil too.

Like I said, she isn't exactly evil, she just doesn't know better. If you were raised in a canibal society would it be normal for you to eat other humans? Probably. Bitch part is expected and normal from her, given her background. Yes she was "nice" in BG1, but why? Cause you gave a damn, you took her in and guarded her while nobody, but nobody gave her a time of day, or wanted her dead just cause of the colour of her skin.

In BG2 she opened up, and when it comes down to it, you can see how fucked up she really is, IMO she is most fucked up of the original 3 romances, even more than Jaheira and that is hard to catch up with. I still believe she is not evil she just doesn't know better, and as proof there is the conversation in which she asks you do you want her to change? If you say yes, her allignment changes from evil to good as she finallly understands your reasoning and love.

Eudaemonium

Her alignment changes from Evil to Neutral. There is no Good involved.

nano

Duron said:

nano said:

@Duron It's understandable why she's a bitch, but the fact is that she still is a bitch and not the type of person I'd want to date. That said I romance her anyways because I like her from an outside perspective. In BG1 she actually was quite a nice person but that changed in BG2.

And I think she is evil, at least until charname comes along. She's done her own share of evil deeds without any remorse, and one baby isn't enough to turn that around. "It's my culture and I didn't know better" isn't an excuse in Faerun where entire cultures can be good or evil, and if your culture is evil and you go along with it then too bad, you're evil too.

Like I said, she isn't exactly evil, she just doesn't know better. If you were raised in a canibal society would it be normal for you to eat other humans? Probably. Bitch part is expected and normal from her, given her background. Yes she was "nice" in BG1, but why? Cause you gave a damn, you took her in and guarded her while nobody, but nobody gave her a time of day, or wanted her dead just cause of the colour of her skin.

In BG2 she opened up, and when it comes down to it, you can see how fucked up she really is, IMO she is most fucked up of the original 3 romances, even more than Jaheira and that is hard to catch up with. I still believe she is not evil she just doesn't know better, and as proof there is the conversation in which she asks you do you want her to change? If you say yes, her allignment changes from evil to good as she finallly understands your reasoning and love.

She is evil though. Let me reiterate what I said about evil cultures: She's done her own share of evil deeds without any remorse, and one baby isn't enough to turn that around. "It's my culture and I didn't know better" isn't an excuse in Faerun where entire cultures can be good or evil, and if your culture is evil and you go along with it then too bad, you're evil too.

If you were raised in an evil cannibalistic society and you felt no remorse for being a part of cannibalism, that would make you evil. Remember that this is Faerun, and moral relativism holds no sway here. Being a cannibal in that society is understandable, but that doesn't mean it's good.

This is not meant as an attack on Viconia. I actually like her character. But I like her character because she's evil. It seems people are uncomfortable with feeling sympathy for an evil person, so they try and justify her actions and say that "oh but she's not so bad a person really". But that's wishful thinking. She is that bad of a person, which is why she's interesting and what makes her eventual change meaningful. She's not like Solaufein who's secretly not evil and all it takes is the realization that he can no longer keep up the act. Viconia is really and truly evil which makes her story one of redemption, not the mere discarding of a mask.

This is the kind of thing you might encounter in real life. Maybe you had a rough childhood with bad influences and turned to a life of heinous crime because of that. That's understandable. And sure, if anyone else was in your shoes they'd probably have ended up the same way, following the evil path you are on now. But that doesn't make it okay to keep following that path. Fine, it's not really your fault and maybe if you had a better upbringing you'd be a good person. But the fact is, right now you are not a good person. In fact, you are kind of a shitty person, and the first step to not being a shitty person and being a good person is to acknowledge it instead of making excuses.

Aranthys

Disgruntler said:

You could say the writer of BG2

winged it

Am I the only one that read that sentence with Horatio Caine voice in my head ?

GemHound

Hmmm... Let's see... So, what some of you here are saying, is that if everything you have been taught in your life is evil, then you are evil, regardless of wanting to change and also not be evil. This argument that many of you are posting would make every single being from an evil culture evil, regardless of their actual inner thoughts. Just noting this.

Regardless, back to the subject since this thread is getting DERAILED.

Aerie is extremely whiny. Compare her loosing her wings, to you loosing your legs. You would eventually get used to it. Whereas Aerie continues to cry and complain about loosing them many years after the fact.

Viconia has been being hunted for longer than Drizzt has been alive at this point in the game(House De'Vir was annihilated by House Do'Urden the exact moment that Drizzt was born, spell caused their destruction). She has some serious baggage due to that.

Jaheira... yuck.

Coutelier

Aerie 'constantly whining about her wings' is just a myth. Until you romance her, she almost never really talks about them. People who've been through traumatic experiences like hers (and having her wings cut off was just the culmination of a hell of a lot of abuse), often don't talk about it for a very long time. In some case, they may even seem completely fine on the outside. But then, something might happen that will trigger and cause to relive their experiences, which could be anything; a sight, a sound, an anniversary. In Aerie's case, maybe her attraction to the bhaalspawn combined with hearing about the birdcages in Irenicus dungeon is what triggers it.

And as for Vic, who is a bitch whether you romance her or not, I like her character as well. I think others have already said how I feel; I like her as character because she is so evil. Wouldn't take her home to meet mum and dad though.

Freche

Coutelier said:

Wouldn't take her home to meet mum and dad though.

Thats not an issue for charname.

Coutelier

Freche said:

Coutelier said:

Wouldn't take her home to meet mum and dad though.

Thats not an issue for charname.

Good point... being an orphan does have some advantages.

Disgruntler

Coutelier said:

Aerie 'constantly whining about her wings' is just a myth. Until you romance her, she almost never really talks about them. People who've been through traumatic experiences like hers (and having her wings cut off was just the culmination of a hell of a lot of abuse), often don't talk about it for a very long time. In some case, they may even seem completely fine on the outside. But then, something might happen that will trigger and cause to relive their experiences, which could be anything; a sight, a sound, an anniversary. In Aerie's case, maybe her attraction to the bhaalspawn combined with hearing about the birdcages in Irenicus dungeon is what triggers it.

You know she lost her wings before you leave the circus tent.

Sartain

Pretty sure dear old dad (Bhaal) would think that she was kinda weak-sauce in terms of evil

Coutelier

Disgruntler said:

Coutelier said:

Aerie 'constantly whining about her wings' is just a myth. Until you romance her, she almost never really talks about them. People who've been through traumatic experiences like hers (and having her wings cut off was just the culmination of a hell of a lot of abuse), often don't talk about it for a very long time. In some case, they may even seem completely fine on the outside. But then, something might happen that will trigger and cause to relive their experiences, which could be anything; a sight, a sound, an anniversary. In Aerie's case, maybe her attraction to the bhaalspawn combined with hearing about the birdcages in Irenicus dungeon is what triggers it.

You know she lost her wings before you leave the circus tent.

Yes.

Did you have a point? Oh no... I get it; yes, you ask her what she is and she says she's an avariel who lost her wings. That's it. She's not whining about anything, she's just giving an honest answer to your question.

Coutelier

I accidentally hit quote instead of edit. Oh well.

Might as well say that there are other times too when another NPC might ask her about her wings, and she'll give some short answer but not go much deeper than that. She doesn't start conversations with other NPC's about them, so it's not until the romance that she really gets anything off her chest.