No, sorry man, that's fallacious. Both times you meet Viconia, you are finding her being attacked by vigilantes because of what she is rather than because she has done anything. Nor does she start gleefully talking about sacrificing people, and one of the first things she tells you is that she no longer worships the same god. Who's to say charname has the foggiest idea of what life for her as a drow cleric actually entailed? Even if they do, there is obvious the possibility that she's changed her ways and repented (and nothing she says initially indicates she hasn't).
There just isn't a comparison.
She literally tells you in BG2 that she took part in ritualistic sacrifice. There's nothing fallacious about what I said.
well as a good guy it is important first for me to be able to intervene when I am standing right there. I know I wouldn't just stand around and watch a vampire feed on Clara without doing anything.
it is an interesting character the developers could roll with. we have our first non kitted/multi/dual thief, maybe we should get a neutral or good one now? I would pay for Clara I think. at least I would have a pure thief considering that I am never evil and cannot justify myself into taking a vampire. I would kill Hexxat, but I get no reward for it or another NPC, like Clara.
You can't do anything about Clara's death because there's nothing to do. Hexxat is right next to her, and simply rips her throat out instantly. Instant NPC deaths happen all the time with no complaints, like Desharik's girlfriend Cyania, Mook, or the Shadow Thief mage with the doorbreaker golem, and yet this one is somehow super special because people like her portrait so nobody is allowed to kill her. I want Bodhi as a companion instead of having to kill her. You don't see me crying about it.
It's easy to justify. You need her strength, she doesn't even want to be a vampire. I could argue that any Good character should try to help cure a repentant vampire, but I won't because I try to avoid making inane, sweeping generalizations.
when the player meets viconia he has no idea about her past and has no reason to believe she has done any of these things its not stamped on her head or anything(unless your racist)
Sarevok cannot disobey charname so his alignment is redundant if u want him to be good he will be good
Hexxat kills her what else matters Hexxat will always kill others
no you don't know they will change but you know they can the same is not true for Hexxat she is evil and will always be evil by definition of what she is
and the last one is just a cop out if you justifying evil just to meet your goals your probably not much of a good charname in the first place
I never suggested CHARNAME did know any of those things. I was only pointing out that Viconia is also clearly evil and you seem to have no problem justifying her recruitment.
Sarevok won't be under that geas forever, and even if he were he's clever enough to figure out a way to free himself eventually. He's also guilty of numerous conspiracies and murders, and my impression was that you weren't cool with evil actions.
Hexxat needed to kill her to live. And that's the only time in the game she ever NEEDS to feed. Her refusal to actively drink blood might explain why she lacks the drain touch of other vampires.
Hexxat was probably Neutral Evil before becoming a vampire. But, then, just being Neutral Evil isn't really a crime. Vampirism can also be cured, and I think she might do it if the option came up, so there's that.
Good'aligned adventurers don't get very far without accepting the reality of their profession. They need food, shelter, and gear, which requires money. CHARNAME in particular needs to fight one of the most powerful wizards in the world and invade a stronghold of Amn's wizard secret police, so being too choosy about who helps is not the wisest decision. Besides, if Hexxat follows your orders, which you provided as an excuse for Sarevok, what difference does it make?
Plus, all of those bones you saw in the tomb, and the wraiths? Hexxat had a penchant for female thieves...
The bones were female thieves and other adventurers lured to the tomb, but they died before they reached Hexxat. She was paralyzed and unable to move physically for 200 years, which is why she really couldn't control herself when Clara took the Casque off.
No, sorry man, that's fallacious. Both times you meet Viconia, you are finding her being attacked by vigilantes because of what she is rather than because she has done anything. Nor does she start gleefully talking about sacrificing people, and one of the first things she tells you is that she no longer worships the same god. Who's to say charname has the foggiest idea of what life for her as a drow cleric actually entailed? Even if they do, there is obvious the possibility that she's changed her ways and repented (and nothing she says initially indicates she hasn't).
There just isn't a comparison.
Viconia abandoning Lolth may be atypical of a drow, but let's not forget that Shar isn't exactly the goddess of homemade cookies - if that mob had attacked Viconia because of her faith rather than her race, it would be completely acceptable (how many Cyricists and Dark Moon cultists do you kill in this game?)
(how many Cyricists and Dark Moon cultists do you kill in this game?)
Not that many that aren't aggressive to *you* for one reason or the other. And, after all, Talos isn't exactly a god of homemade cookies, yet he has a large temple in the very same city as our second rescue of Viconia from people wanting to kill her for her race (at least one of which worships another evil goddess) occurs in.
Viconia abandoning Lolth may be atypical of a drow, but let's not forget that Shar isn't exactly the goddess of homemade cookies - if that mob had attacked Viconia because of her faith rather than her race, it would be completely acceptable (how many Cyricists and Dark Moon cultists do you kill in this game?)
While playing good? Absolutely none, unless they attack me first.
Edit: And no, that would be totally unacceptable - and also not how evil cultists are treated elsewhere, like at the Temple of Umberlee in Baldur's Gate.
She literally tells you in BG2 that she took part in ritualistic sacrifice. There's nothing fallacious about what I said.
Does she tell you that when you're saving her from being burnt at the stake? Does she tell you that before you take her into your party and get to know her? No? Then they are not comparable.
Saving someone from a horrible, unjust death, getting to know them, and then finding out they did something awful in the past != Your first experience with someone being them murdering someone in front of you that you know and travelled with (even if not well and not for long).
There just isn't a comparison, man. Any good character can justify saving Viconia and taking her with them. You have to work a lot harder to excuse what Hexxat does in front of you the very first time you meet her. That doesn't mean it's impossible, but there's no comparison. Nothing Viconia does when you meet her marks her as evil. She's an innocent victim. Hexxat is the one killing the innocent victim. World of difference.
It's easy to justify. You need her strength, she doesn't even want to be a vampire. I could argue that any Good character should try to help cure a repentant vampire, but I won't because I try to avoid making inane, sweeping generalizations.
I will. Any good character should try to help cure a repentant vampire unless there's very good reasons not to.
The bones were female thieves and other adventurers lured to the tomb, but they died before they reached Hexxat. She was paralyzed and unable to move physically for 200 years, which is why she really couldn't control herself when Clara took the Casque off.
That does make a lot of sense, but, and I hate to say this - that does not come through with her calm, reasoned tone in the "I'm sorry, Clara" line at all. She seems completely in control, and her subsequent dialogue to the PC doesn't really give any indication she isn't, either.
Really, she probably should have formed, ripped out her throat and then given an "I'm sorry, Clara" line. It actually would've made her seem more sympathetic and given a moderately better reason for good-aligned parties to at least hear her out.
I think I read that she used to be prostitute, so maybe she could get a job at the Copper Coronet, or something.
Wrong, she was a farm girl who wanted to be an actress in Athkatla, but due to difficulties getting the career she wanted, she ended up having a degrading career (probably a prostitute) and she gained the pity of a retired Shadow Thief and he trained her how to be a thief.
for me the most immersion breaking moment of the entire game seeing a party of good adventurers stand there and watch Clara get murdered, good work team !
im sorry @schneidend I just don't think your making any kind of a convincing argument here and your last paragraph in particular seems to be clutching at straws if you cant see the difference between sarevok and Hexxat theres not much else I can say
I fail to see how that would be better - at least the way it is in-game, Clara gets to hear the apology.
Because if she is driven by starvation and instinct to kill her, and then apologises, it comes off a lot morally better than "I'm very sorry about this, but, I have to kill you. (munchmunch)".
for me the most immersion breaking moment of the entire game seeing a party of good adventurers stand there and watch Clara get murdered, good work team !
How about when the exact same thing happened to Xzar? Or any of the numerous others times people die and you can't save them or rez them even though realistically you ought to be able to?
for me the most immersion breaking moment of the entire game seeing a party of good adventurers stand there and watch Clara get murdered, good work team !
How about when the exact same thing happened to Xzar? Or any of the numerous others times people die and you can't save them or rez them even though realistically you ought to be able to?
yeh it can be annoying across the board, although I must admit I don't remember that many were I felt like I should have been able to save them. but this feels worse in my opinion maybe because its some one your responsible for maybe because it feels so orchestrated when it actually happens but I think mostly its because of the manner in which it is presented and the games reaction to it. regardless its just really rubbish in my opinion and just not enjoyable its a pretty galling experience for me
The difference is that pretty much all the other times, the people dying were not part of your party. So in Clara's case, whom I only took to the tomb in the hopes of helping her out, she was essentially my responsiblity not a lamb I wanted to lead to the slaughter and just stand by and watch her get sucked dry by some random vampire. When I got through that veil-thingie, my PC actually stood between Clara and Hexxat while she killed her. Talk about immersion breaking.
Regarding Clara's thieving skills, Hexxat actually says she was good at it, just not great (which is obvious from looking at her stats).
Well, obviously, probably the other good thing to have happen is to only let Clara get past the barrier; charname and party are forced to watch from a distance. Or just have her take off and run ahead of you. That would at least solve the "why couldn't I stop it" problem, but really, if people want to be intellectually honest they can't pretend that what happens with Hexxat here is in any way novel. Things inescapably happening in cutscenes is all over Baldur's Gate from the first time you walk out of Candlekeep and get cutscene-o-visioned through the death of Gorion.
@Emmi and @element: You could make the exact same argument about Yoshimo, or Imoen, or the love interest Bodhi snatches, or Mhairi from Dragon Age, or Thane Krios from Mass Effect. Sometimes Gameplay and Story Segregation requires a certain event to happen even if the player could have prevented it. Clara had to die in order to establish basic facts about Hexxat: whether you find it credible regarding your party matters about as much as whether you believe your party would have been able to fight off the Cowled Wizards after escaping Irenicus the first time.
@shawne Gotta give it to you, you make a valid point there. But what speaks against Yoshimo is that he actually betrays you, so its not that immersion breaking that you kill him when he attacks. Thane was already terminally ill and if I remember correctly, he intervenes in the assassination before Shepard gets a chance to do anything. Mhairi dies at the joining, so there is nothing you could do either way. You can still save love interest, so no comparison there.
IMO, all that Clara's inevitable death establishes is that Hexxat is an evil vampire. An attack that you can actually stop, if you choose to would do the same thing for Hexx, only that you would just kill her off right there and keep Clara instead. I really don't see what is so terrible about that possibility, especially when you can choose to let it play out as it does now anyway.
@shawne sorry I have to disagree Yoshimo and Thane are both in a situation that can't be altered Thane even says hes dying when u first meet him. Clara however is not in such a situation theres no reason she couldn't survive
also Mhairi is a funny example because a lot of people dindnt like that she died.But, again id say she dies in a way which is un preventable you cant cure her from the poison theres nothing more you could do. With Clara however im standing right there and just moving a small amount would have achieved something it doesn't require information my character doesn't have like Mhairi it just requires some degree off common sense and a mentality my character has displayed nearly the entire story
also about gameplay and story segregation. Yes it is a factor in most games but that doesn't mean its acceptable, especially in this case were it doesn't really achieve anything. The Cowled wizard example pushes the entire plot forwards the story would break otherwise. Seeing Hexxat is a murderer and annoying me doesn't push the story forwards and it doesn't achieve anything because it hampers my enjoyment to the extent I simply don't want to experience the content. Segregation such as this should only be used when the story has no other option not just when its convenient it is after all an undesirable story telling method
@Emmi: Wouldn't a Good character be inclined to forgive Yoshimo for his betrayal, though? Especially since he was geased? I mean, you can take his heart to Ilmater's temple and give him some peace, but some players have made the argument that you should've been able to actually save him at Spellhold. The same goes for Thane - Shepard isn't actually doing anything during the fight, and she only takes a shot at Kai Leng after he stabs Thane. Because the game's story requires that these events happen - just like the story requires that Bodhi succeed in kidnapping your love interest, even if said love interest is a level 20 cleric who could have used Repel Undead to knock Bodhi into next Tuesday.
As for Clara, that whole scene tells you more about Hexxat than just the fact that she's an evil vampire:
1. She actually is sorry to sacrifice Clara, which means she isn't as callous towards human life as, say, Korgan. 2. At the same time, she has no compunction about sacrificing pawns like Clara to further her own ends (which is pretty much the textbook definition of Neutral Evil). 3. Her plan actually worked, so she's got a knack for playing the long game, so to speak.
@element: Can you explain why you see Yoshimo and Thane as "situations that can't be altered" and Clara as something different? All you had to do to save Thane from Kai Leng would be to move forward, put yourself between them; but you can't, because the story dictates that this is Thane's last heroic moment.
The fact that the content bothers you might simply be because you're roleplaying a character who wouldn't find Hexxat's use of Clara acceptable. Fair enough, but the solution is simple: don't do Hexxat's quests. I mean, Good characters wouldn't go all Red Wedding for Dorn either, or kill a defenseless Dynaheir just because Edwin asks you to, but that's okay - it just means those particular characters are meant for evil players.
for me the most immersion breaking moment of the entire game seeing a party of good adventurers stand there and watch Clara get murdered, good work team !
How about when the exact same thing happened to Xzar? Or any of the numerous others times people die and you can't save them or rez them even though realistically you ought to be able to?
I usually try to kill the Harper assassin. If nothing else, you still have the option of going after the other Harpers.
@shawne sorry about Thane I assumed you were referring to his disease yes that bit is stupid but mass effect 3s story telling when it comes to Kai Leng is pretty awful all over. Also; while he does go out in a stupid way he didn't have much longer left regardless. by the time the truth of Yoshimo is discovered hes already doomed he either dies fighting you or dies because he didn't fight you. Clara on the other hand is not in such a ctach 22 situation she is very much in a situation which she could come away from if my character was allowed to react even slightly in keeping with his character
yes those are good examples apart from those characters state from the start what you should expect. Dorn says when you meet him 'i'm going to kill a paladin' you are then given the opportunity to react accordingly. Edwin does the same he tells you what he wants and you can react, in fact his goes even further and allows u to subvert his mission recruiting both him and hit target. Hexxat however does not do this you are never made aware of what she is doing as she essentially tricks you. This on its own is absolutely fine and id even say pretty good, the problem arises when it forces you out of character. If I knew what was going on I could avoid it and that would be fine, but as it is I don't which is again fine but you cant do that and then force your character into a situation that completely compromises your experience. Of course now I can simply not do the quest but then that's just entirely meta and if you have to do that to avoid a situation like this i'd say that's something of a failing in the story telling
@shawne Well, again, well argued, but I don't see any way at all how to save Yoshimo *because* he is geased. He's already done from the point the geas was put in place, which was before he even met charname. About Thane, I can't argue much since I was so disappointed in the ME3 ending, I didn't bother with another playthrough and I didn't really care for Thane too much, so I don't remember the exact way the scene played out. You're definitly right about the LI though. That does seem a bit odd.
I usually try to kill the Harper assassin. If nothing else, you still have the option of going after the other Harpers.
Yes, but you can't save him. He's scripted to die as soon as she pops out, even if you place yourselves between him and her, even if you kill her almost immediately. She doesn't have to hit him, it's entirely scripted.
So what, precisely, is the difference? At least with Hexxat, if you want to kill her, the game lets you properly express your outrage in dialogue and actually kill her without her being scripted to vanish a few seconds later. We didn't even get that with the person who casually murders someone who may well have been your comrade-in-arms for the entirety of the previous game (nor, of course, can you resurrect Xzar even though there is no real reason you shouldn't be able to).
@element: It's precisely that "if" that's the issue, though - "if my character was allowed to react in the way he/she would have, the story would have gone a different way" is a necessary evil in a video game that tries to both tell a story and give the player a measure of agency. I mean, my character traveled with Xzar and Montaron all the way through BG1; I certainly would have liked to save at least Xzar, especially since I was less than a foot away from him at the time.
You're right that characters like Dorn, Nalia and Edwin tend to make their expectations of you rather clear, but - if we're thinking here of roleplaying as a game mechanic - Clara registers as Evil whether you cast Detect Evil or even peek at her character sheet (which most players do). Wasn't that enough of a hint that if you pursued her quests, you might not like the results?
I expect most Good characters kill Hexxat at that point, and thus avenge Clara; what more need be done?
@Emmi: I had the exact same experience with ME3, so I highly recommend the MEHEM mod - it completely changed my feelings about the game to such an extent that I immediately started up another run through the trilogy.
@shawne Well, again, well argued, but I don't see any way at all how to save Yoshimo *because* he is geased. He's already done from the point the geas was put in place, which was before he even met charname.
A fairly major quest in Baldur's Gate 1 relies about saving somebody from a geas. It takes a scroll, which you get (indirectly) from paying 500gp or a good sob story. Not exactly the stuff from which impossibilities are made.
Comments
You can't do anything about Clara's death because there's nothing to do. Hexxat is right next to her, and simply rips her throat out instantly. Instant NPC deaths happen all the time with no complaints, like Desharik's girlfriend Cyania, Mook, or the Shadow Thief mage with the doorbreaker golem, and yet this one is somehow super special because people like her portrait so nobody is allowed to kill her. I want Bodhi as a companion instead of having to kill her. You don't see me crying about it.
It's easy to justify. You need her strength, she doesn't even want to be a vampire. I could argue that any Good character should try to help cure a repentant vampire, but I won't because I try to avoid making inane, sweeping generalizations. I never suggested CHARNAME did know any of those things. I was only pointing out that Viconia is also clearly evil and you seem to have no problem justifying her recruitment.
Sarevok won't be under that geas forever, and even if he were he's clever enough to figure out a way to free himself eventually. He's also guilty of numerous conspiracies and murders, and my impression was that you weren't cool with evil actions.
Hexxat needed to kill her to live. And that's the only time in the game she ever NEEDS to feed. Her refusal to actively drink blood might explain why she lacks the drain touch of other vampires.
Hexxat was probably Neutral Evil before becoming a vampire. But, then, just being Neutral Evil isn't really a crime. Vampirism can also be cured, and I think she might do it if the option came up, so there's that.
Good'aligned adventurers don't get very far without accepting the reality of their profession. They need food, shelter, and gear, which requires money. CHARNAME in particular needs to fight one of the most powerful wizards in the world and invade a stronghold of Amn's wizard secret police, so being too choosy about who helps is not the wisest decision. Besides, if Hexxat follows your orders, which you provided as an excuse for Sarevok, what difference does it make?
Plus, all of those bones you saw in the tomb, and the wraiths? Hexxat had a penchant for female thieves...
Edit: And no, that would be totally unacceptable - and also not how evil cultists are treated elsewhere, like at the Temple of Umberlee in Baldur's Gate.
Saving someone from a horrible, unjust death, getting to know them, and then finding out they did something awful in the past != Your first experience with someone being them murdering someone in front of you that you know and travelled with (even if not well and not for long).
There just isn't a comparison, man. Any good character can justify saving Viconia and taking her with them. You have to work a lot harder to excuse what Hexxat does in front of you the very first time you meet her. That doesn't mean it's impossible, but there's no comparison. Nothing Viconia does when you meet her marks her as evil. She's an innocent victim. Hexxat is the one killing the innocent victim. World of difference. I will. Any good character should try to help cure a repentant vampire unless there's very good reasons not to.
Really, she probably should have formed, ripped out her throat and then given an "I'm sorry, Clara" line. It actually would've made her seem more sympathetic and given a moderately better reason for good-aligned parties to at least hear her out.
im sorry @schneidend I just don't think your making any kind of a convincing argument here and your last paragraph in particular seems to be clutching at straws if you cant see the difference between sarevok and Hexxat theres not much else I can say
Regarding Clara's thieving skills, Hexxat actually says she was good at it, just not great (which is obvious from looking at her stats).
IMO, all that Clara's inevitable death establishes is that Hexxat is an evil vampire. An attack that you can actually stop, if you choose to would do the same thing for Hexx, only that you would just kill her off right there and keep Clara instead. I really don't see what is so terrible about that possibility, especially when you can choose to let it play out as it does now anyway.
@shawne sorry I have to disagree Yoshimo and Thane are both in a situation that can't be altered Thane even says hes dying when u first meet him. Clara however is not in such a situation theres no reason she couldn't survive
also Mhairi is a funny example because a lot of people dindnt like that she died.But, again id say she dies in a way which is un preventable you cant cure her from the poison theres nothing more you could do.
With Clara however im standing right there and just moving a small amount would have achieved something it doesn't require information my character doesn't have like Mhairi it just requires some degree off common sense and a mentality my character has displayed nearly the entire story
also about gameplay and story segregation. Yes it is a factor in most games but that doesn't mean its acceptable, especially in this case were it doesn't really achieve anything. The Cowled wizard example pushes the entire plot forwards the story would break otherwise. Seeing Hexxat is a murderer and annoying me doesn't push the story forwards and it doesn't achieve anything because it hampers my enjoyment to the extent I simply don't want to experience the content. Segregation such as this should only be used when the story has no other option not just when its convenient it is after all an undesirable story telling method
As for Clara, that whole scene tells you more about Hexxat than just the fact that she's an evil vampire:
1. She actually is sorry to sacrifice Clara, which means she isn't as callous towards human life as, say, Korgan.
2. At the same time, she has no compunction about sacrificing pawns like Clara to further her own ends (which is pretty much the textbook definition of Neutral Evil).
3. Her plan actually worked, so she's got a knack for playing the long game, so to speak.
@element: Can you explain why you see Yoshimo and Thane as "situations that can't be altered" and Clara as something different? All you had to do to save Thane from Kai Leng would be to move forward, put yourself between them; but you can't, because the story dictates that this is Thane's last heroic moment.
The fact that the content bothers you might simply be because you're roleplaying a character who wouldn't find Hexxat's use of Clara acceptable. Fair enough, but the solution is simple: don't do Hexxat's quests. I mean, Good characters wouldn't go all Red Wedding for Dorn either, or kill a defenseless Dynaheir just because Edwin asks you to, but that's okay - it just means those particular characters are meant for evil players.
yes those are good examples apart from those characters state from the start what you should expect. Dorn says when you meet him 'i'm going to kill a paladin' you are then given the opportunity to react accordingly. Edwin does the same he tells you what he wants and you can react, in fact his goes even further and allows u to subvert his mission recruiting both him and hit target. Hexxat however does not do this you are never made aware of what she is doing as she essentially tricks you. This on its own is absolutely fine and id even say pretty good, the problem arises when it forces you out of character. If I knew what was going on I could avoid it and that would be fine, but as it is I don't which is again fine but you cant do that and then force your character into a situation that completely compromises your experience. Of course now I can simply not do the quest but then that's just entirely meta and if you have to do that to avoid a situation like this i'd say that's something of a failing in the story telling
You're definitly right about the LI though. That does seem a bit odd.
So what, precisely, is the difference? At least with Hexxat, if you want to kill her, the game lets you properly express your outrage in dialogue and actually kill her without her being scripted to vanish a few seconds later. We didn't even get that with the person who casually murders someone who may well have been your comrade-in-arms for the entirety of the previous game (nor, of course, can you resurrect Xzar even though there is no real reason you shouldn't be able to).
You're right that characters like Dorn, Nalia and Edwin tend to make their expectations of you rather clear, but - if we're thinking here of roleplaying as a game mechanic - Clara registers as Evil whether you cast Detect Evil or even peek at her character sheet (which most players do). Wasn't that enough of a hint that if you pursued her quests, you might not like the results?
I expect most Good characters kill Hexxat at that point, and thus avenge Clara; what more need be done?
@Emmi: I had the exact same experience with ME3, so I highly recommend the MEHEM mod - it completely changed my feelings about the game to such an extent that I immediately started up another run through the trilogy.