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She who shall not be named publicly (Hexxat related spoiler)

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  • EmmiEmmi Member Posts: 77
    Ayiekie said:

    Emmi said:

    @shawne Well, again, well argued, but I don't see any way at all how to save Yoshimo *because* he is geased. He's already done from the point the geas was put in place, which was before he even met charname.

    A fairly major quest in Baldur's Gate 1 relies about saving somebody from a geas. It takes a scroll, which you get (indirectly) from paying 500gp or a good sob story. Not exactly the stuff from which impossibilities are made.

    Haha, I think I remember that one, but I would like to think that Irenicus makes a better geas than that.
  • EmmiEmmi Member Posts: 77
    shawne said:

    @Emmi: I had the exact same experience with ME3, so I highly recommend the MEHEM mod - it completely changed my feelings about the game to such an extent that I immediately started up another run through the trilogy. :)

    Thanks! I'll be sure to check it out asap!
  • elementelement Member Posts: 833
    edited November 2013
    shawne said:

    @element: It's precisely that "if" that's the issue, though - "if my character was allowed to react in the way he/she would have, the story would have gone a different way" is a necessary evil in a video game that tries to both tell a story and give the player a measure of agency)

    yes it is needed in games I agree but in this instance it simply doesn't achieve anything, there is no 'the story would have gone a different way' because if your good there is no story. If your evil then its fine but if your good you probably wont be continuing the story anyway So why not let players just finish it in a satisfying way
    shawne said:


    I mean, my character traveled with Xzar and Montaron all the way through BG1; I certainly would have liked to save at least Xzar, especially since I was less than a foot away from him at the time.

    yes im not arguing this its entirely stupid and you should be able to save Xzar and theres no reason why you shouldn't be able to
    shawne said:

    You're right that characters like Dorn, Nalia and Edwin tend to make their expectations of you rather clear, but - if we're thinking here of roleplaying as a game mechanic - Clara registers as Evil whether you cast Detect Evil or even peek at her character sheet (which most players do). Wasn't that enough of a hint that if you pursued her quests, you might not like the results?)

    yes this is true but as is demonstrated throughout the game evil alignment does not equal evil actions. All I know is Clara needs to get to a tomb and seems to be in trouble so I help her in the same way I find Viconia and don't leave her to die. Also I would say in this instance liking the results is secondary to character portrayal I can dislike the results of a quest without feeling like the games just screwed me over
    shawne said:

    I expect most Good characters kill Hexxat at that point, and thus avenge Clara; what more need be done??)

    yes the problem is that the only reason I need do that at all is bad design, and in away this kind of goes along with what i'm saying. If you can happily kill Hexxat immediately after then why not give me that option first? and send Clara on her merry way maybe with some gold to buy her way home? the net result would be the same the only difference is that my character and immersion wouldn't be broken in the process. the quest would be the same in almost every way the only difference I wouldn't have been put in such an absurd situation.
  • ChildofBhaal599ChildofBhaal599 Member Posts: 1,781
    Emmi said:

    shawne said:

    @Emmi: I had the exact same experience with ME3, so I highly recommend the MEHEM mod - it completely changed my feelings about the game to such an extent that I immediately started up another run through the trilogy. :)

    Thanks! I'll be sure to check it out asap!
    you can see it somewhere on youtube. I saw it but it wasn't something where I would start up another trilogy run. There was more to it than it being a sad ending for me, but anybody who merely wants a happy ending could get one out of it.
  • EmmiEmmi Member Posts: 77
    @ChildofBhaal599 I just watched it on YT. Looked actually surprisingly good to me. At least I won't have to scratch my eyes out when the star child appears and starts blurting out random crap. I'll install it anyway, just in case I get in the mood to start a new Shep sometime.
    Of course I don't expect it to deliver the ending I wanted Bioware to make (Indoctrination Theory + Harbinger boss fight AND actually see that Shepard is alive if you did everything right and reunite with LI), but getting rid of the star child is already pretty great.
  • ChildofBhaal599ChildofBhaal599 Member Posts: 1,781
    Emmi said:

    @ChildofBhaal599 I just watched it on YT. Looked actually surprisingly good to me. At least I won't have to scratch my eyes out when the star child appears and starts blurting out random crap. I'll install it anyway, just in case I get in the mood to start a new Shep sometime.
    Of course I don't expect it to deliver the ending I wanted Bioware to make (Indoctrination Theory + Harbinger boss fight AND actually see that Shepard is alive if you did everything right and reunite with LI), but getting rid of the star child is already pretty great.

    and I totally agree on star child. nice to see him gone, but there is so much more that needs done, like a harbinger fight, character endings showing what they start doing, Shepard and LI doing whatever it is they are doing if we survive, and MEHEM didn't cut it out for me as it did many others. also I would have to repurchase the games for pc as I played on 360, and I am not doing that. I guess we all have our own reasons to hate the ending and no one fix will work for all, though it is still in general consensus in most place that people hate the ending so I still don't see why they let it be looking at how all those polls went. I seem to remember them being around 90% hate and 10% like and indifferent, which you should not leave alone.
  • marcerormarceror Member Posts: 577
    edited November 2013

    marceror said:

    I think I read that she used to be prostitute, so maybe she could get a job at the Copper Coronet, or something.

    Wrong, she was a farm girl who wanted to be an actress in Athkatla, but due to difficulties getting the career she wanted, she ended up having a degrading career (probably a prostitute) and she gained the pity of a retired Shadow Thief and he trained her how to be a thief.

    @BladeDancer

    Umm, can you clarify what part of my post you're claiming is wrong? The prostitute part? If so, you mention that she was probably a prostitute yourself, so that would seem rather schizophrenic of you.

    Or is it the part where I mention that maybe should could get a job at the Copper Coronet. If it's this part, please explain. Does she not have proper ID? Is her family barred from working in Athkatla? Please, pray tell, explain how mentioning that "maybe" she could get a job at the Copper Coronet is somehow "wrong"?

    And if it's neither of these, then clearly you were responding to someone else or the voices in your head, because my post didn't have a third part.

    ;)
  • ChildofBhaal599ChildofBhaal599 Member Posts: 1,781
    if all these threads tell me something it is that right now Beamdog could be raking in money. still, we have plenty of other characters to choose from so I wouldn't worry so much about this and probably just won't go with Clara on my later games. I still would purchase her if she was made available however.
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    "Raking in money"? I pity anyone who would pay $5 for a subpar thief - especially when, if you're in a Good/Neutral party, you already have Jan, Imoen and Nalia.
  • CutlassJackCutlassJack Member Posts: 493
    edited November 2013
    shawne said:

    "Raking in money"? I pity anyone who would pay $5 for a subpar thief - especially when, if you're in a Good/Neutral party, you already have Jan, Imoen and Nalia.

    I don't pay money for any class whatsoever. I do pay for more story. Which if she were a DLC she'd have. Not to mention she's only currently 'subpar' because she was temporary.

    Certainly no one took Rasaad along because of his awesome fighting ability in BGEE (at least before he was patched to Sun Soul). :P

    But really she'd have to be added to the Hexxat DLC. She couldn't be sold separately, except to PC users only.

  • BladeDancerBladeDancer Member Posts: 477
    edited November 2013
    marceror said:

    marceror said:

    I think I read that she used to be prostitute, so maybe she could get a job at the Copper Coronet, or something.

    Wrong, she was a farm girl who wanted to be an actress in Athkatla, but due to difficulties getting the career she wanted, she ended up having a degrading career (probably a prostitute) and she gained the pity of a retired Shadow Thief and he trained her how to be a thief.

    @BladeDancer

    Umm, can you clarify what part of my post you're claiming is wrong? The prostitute part? If so, you mention that she was probably a prostitute yourself, so that would seem rather schizophrenic of you.

    Or is it the part where I mention that maybe should could get a job at the Copper Coronet. If it's this part, please explain. Does she not have proper ID? Is her family barred from working in Athkatla? Please, pray tell, explain how mentioning that "maybe" she could get a job at the Copper Coronet is somehow "wrong"?

    And if it's neither of these, then clearly you were responding to someone else or the voices in your head, because my post didn't have a third part.

    ;)
    The prostitute part. Unless that's what Hexxat meant when she said Clara ended up "working on her back", then I thought it simply meant that Clara ended up being homeless, digging for food in trash cans and stuff like that. Why would a thief take pity on a harlot, anyway? It would make more sense if she was having trouble surviving on the streets with no job, and no friends.
  • elementelement Member Posts: 833
    I think we can all agree that clara was a prostitute/actress/thief/homeless person/time traveller multi class
  • marcerormarceror Member Posts: 577
    Don't forget doppelganger! Just wait until she reveals her true form!
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    element said:

    I think we can all agree that clara was a prostitute/actress/thief/homeless person/time traveller multi class

    Also a Bhaalspawn half-drow.
    She also has the greatest story to offer in the history of RPGs. That's why Overhaul killed her, obviously.
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    Everyone knows she was a werecapybara half-tiefling half-drow demigoddess.
  • ChildofBhaal599ChildofBhaal599 Member Posts: 1,781
    shawne said:

    "Raking in money"? I pity anyone who would pay $5 for a subpar thief - especially when, if you're in a Good/Neutral party, you already have Jan, Imoen and Nalia.

    well judging by the amount of threads on this where people keep asking for it, I think they could certainly make something if they went with it. I am not going to go to every related thread and talk about how much I want this DLC, but if it were added I think I could do it. Besides, another character would just make it even harder for me to decide when I can't get all the companions I want :(
  • setsunaluvrsetsunaluvr Member Posts: 29
    I'm firmly in the save Clara camp. I was so excited thst I was finally going to be able to have my all female party, and so I'm all going along trying to lock up my party members and then at the end of the tomb of dragomir I'm like "why Overhaul, why?". The true hexxat is like the only thing in the world that my CN character wouldn't travel with. All that work for acharacter I can't use and a silly cloak. Plus, just think of the haracter development as you try to repair the poor broken girl from the death of her mistress. Makes my muse salivate at the the potential writing goldmine there.
  • EmmiEmmi Member Posts: 77

    Emmi said:

    @ChildofBhaal599 I just watched it on YT. Looked actually surprisingly good to me. At least I won't have to scratch my eyes out when the star child appears and starts blurting out random crap. I'll install it anyway, just in case I get in the mood to start a new Shep sometime.
    Of course I don't expect it to deliver the ending I wanted Bioware to make (Indoctrination Theory + Harbinger boss fight AND actually see that Shepard is alive if you did everything right and reunite with LI), but getting rid of the star child is already pretty great.

    and I totally agree on star child. nice to see him gone, but there is so much more that needs done, like a harbinger fight, character endings showing what they start doing, Shepard and LI doing whatever it is they are doing if we survive, and MEHEM didn't cut it out for me as it did many others. also I would have to repurchase the games for pc as I played on 360, and I am not doing that. I guess we all have our own reasons to hate the ending and no one fix will work for all, though it is still in general consensus in most place that people hate the ending so I still don't see why they let it be looking at how all those polls went. I seem to remember them being around 90% hate and 10% like and indifferent, which you should not leave alone.
    Trust me, I was sooo expecting a big, awesome Harbinger fight... I was so disappointed when it turned out the "end boss" of ME3 was Marauder Shields. And then the star child killed the ending completly and made the game into a joke for me. Even after finishing the game, I held out hope and was a firm believer in the Indoctrination Theory. I still think it would have been a brilliant move by Bioware to work that in instead of the shitty Extended Cut. So obviously, MEHEM won't cut it, but considering its fanmade, it looks really awesome and is still a vast improvement over what Bioware delivered. Of course it won't fulfill any hopes of mine either, but hey... its better than nothing.

    Back on topic:

    I totally agree with @setsunaluvr in that "repairing" Clara would offer lots and lots of story, especially since my PC would feel kind of responsible for her after rescuing her from some evil vampire. It would kind of suck to just abandon her after that, in her broken state, after going through all the trouble to save her. For a good DLC, she should get a couple of quests, challenging encounters and the like. For something like that, complete with Clara's great voice actress, I'd be totally willing to shed out 5 or even 10 bucks, if there is enough content to justify it.

    And for those who think a Clara DLC is a bad idea... just don't buy it. Or if you feel compelled to buy it to try it out anyway, if you don't like her, stick with Hexxat, or just don't take Clara with you. I just don't see why more options could ever be a bad thing.
  • AkihikoAkihiko Member Posts: 213
    Well, I don't really have anything else to say that hasn't already been said, but I might as well let my voice be heard and say that I'm still in support of Clara DLC.
  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    Yes when I first did this chain, I killed the evil Hexxat. But doing so did nothing for me, so I reloaded and let her lived (I'm a proper CN IRL).

    But still I would have rather have saved Clara in the heat of the moment even without any reward if I could have saved her. Unpredicatble and self centred I may be, but I'm not evil.
  • jankieljankiel Member Posts: 127
    Ill support the idea of having her as an extra companion.
  • ChildofBhaal599ChildofBhaal599 Member Posts: 1,781
    wow I need to unbookmark this thread makes my other notifications hard to find :)
  • DisgruntlerDisgruntler Member Posts: 100
    Mungri said:

    Yes when I first did this chain, I killed the evil Hexxat. But doing so did nothing for me, so I reloaded and let her lived (I'm a proper CN IRL).

    But still I would have rather have saved Clara in the heat of the moment even without any reward if I could have saved her. Unpredicatble and self centred I may be, but I'm not evil.

    The only reason why I bothered with Hexxat was the fact that she was the new thief NPC. Now that I've seen her content, she dies next time.

    @Stats of Clara
    Her stats surely are lacking compared with other possible NPCs, but compared with Hexxat not so much. Sounds crazy, but I've always been under the impression that vampirism gives a hefty bonus to str, dex and cha in DnD. If you want to see Hexxats human ability scores, equip Dragomirs cloak. It's described as hampering -vampiric- abilities. Specifically, those Dragomir came to enjoy, his new powers.

    Here is a comparison of the exact stats with cloak equipped.
    Clara: 14, 16, 14, 12, 10, 14
    Hexxat: 14, 16, 14, 12, 10, 14

    Haha! What a coincidence!

    Surely I'm not the only one who often forgot to unequip her cloak and managed just fine?
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    edited November 2013
    I always take it off inside, but I regularly leave it on outdoors at night, often forgetting about it in such cases.
  • MechaliburMechalibur Member Posts: 265

    LiamEsler said:


    Plus, all of those bones you saw in the tomb, and the wraiths? Hexxat had a penchant for female thieves...

    The bones were female thieves and other adventurers lured to the tomb, but they died before they reached Hexxat. She was paralyzed and unable to move physically for 200 years, which is why she really couldn't control herself when Clara took the Casque off.

    Well that makes a lot of sense. I was wondering why Hexxat did that, and I couldn't really think of anything. I forgot that their bloodsucking is compulsory.

    Do vampires in FR need to kill their victim for sustenance? In a conversation with Aerie, Hexxat makes it sound like she needs to kill people in order to live. It also sounds like Hexxat prefers non-innocent victims, but she has no qualms about killing a random person if needed to extend her lifespan.
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    Emmi said:

    @ChildofBhaal599 I just watched it on YT. Looked actually surprisingly good to me. At least I won't have to scratch my eyes out when the star child appears and starts blurting out random crap. I'll install it anyway, just in case I get in the mood to start a new Shep sometime. Of course I don't expect it to deliver the ending I wanted Bioware to make (Indoctrination Theory + Harbinger boss fight AND actually see that Shepard is alive if you did everything right and reunite with LI), but getting rid of the star child is already pretty great.

    We're going a bit off-topic, but there were a few things I really appreciated about this mod:

    1. By removing the Starbrat, you never actually get an explanation as to why the Reapers do what they do. Their motivations remain unknown - which is exactly how it should've been.

    2. The Extended Cut did try to contextualize the Normandy's flight from Earth as the crew being ordered to leave... but MEHEM makes the (correct IMO) assumption that even with all hell breaking loose, Joker would. not. leave without Shepard.

    3. When fully upgraded, the Crucible is able to target the Reapers specifically - no more pointless sacrifice of EDI and the geth.

    4. In the EC's memorial scene, you don't really get a chance to mourn Anderson because Shepard's death is so much greater... but now it's a moment for Shepard to grieve over the loss of the one person who always had her back. That last bit with the love interest just seals the deal.

    It doesn't completely resolve outstanding issues... but much like "Ascension" does for BG2, it's a net improvement that changes my perception of the game. And it was enough for me to want to play through the story again, knowing that I would never have to put up with that stupid kid at the end of the journey again...
  • BladeDancerBladeDancer Member Posts: 477
    shawne said:



    We're going a bit off-topic, but there were a few things I really appreciated about this mod:

    1. By removing the Starbrat, you never actually get an explanation as to why the Reapers do what they do. Their motivations remain unknown - which is exactly how it should've been.

    2. The Extended Cut did try to contextualize the Normandy's flight from Earth as the crew being ordered to leave... but MEHEM makes the (correct IMO) assumption that even with all hell breaking loose, Joker would. not. leave without Shepard.

    3. When fully upgraded, the Crucible is able to target the Reapers specifically - no more pointless sacrifice of EDI and the geth.

    4. In the EC's memorial scene, you don't really get a chance to mourn Anderson because Shepard's death is so much greater... but now it's a moment for Shepard to grieve over the loss of the one person who always had her back. That last bit with the love interest just seals the deal.

    I wholeheartedly disagree with you about some points about the mod. I've figured out the point of the endings and who removing Starbrat and the explanation of the Reapers goal does not help anything.

    1. It is NOT how it should be. Whithout knowing the history and objective of the reapers, how can we know how to know how to stop them? Common sense is the more you know about your enemy, the easier it'll be to know how to defeat them. But the problem is, most people don't realize that knowing that the Reapers are not really trying to destroy all organic life but attacking them in order to urge them to do whatever it takes to fight for their survival, like building the Crucible, and choosing Synthesis is what they want you to do, or at least control them. Yes, I'm implying that the Reapers likely have designed the Crucible. How do you explain how the Crucible is easy for everyone to build but not easy to understand what it would do, just like how everyone knows how to use a mass relay but don't know how to build their own?


    3. Ah... "Pointless" sacrifice... I see you are one of the many people who try so hard to ignore this grim but important lesson that the ME game always repeats: "Victory is not always won without making difficult choices", or "sometimes the right choice is not alwats the easy one". What I am implying is that sometimes you MUST make a "pointless" sacrifice to win, otherwise your enemy will win in a way you never imagined or anticipated.

    What I'm saying is despite the fact that killing the Reapers leads you to also destroy the Geth and EDI and possibly leave the galaxy open to another conflict with synthetic life, it is the right choice, and Control and Synthesis are the wrong choices.

    Think about it. Why does Illusive Man, a man who has been touched by Reaper tech and indoctrinated (hence the unnatural blue eyes) for 33 years (back in the Frist Contact War, during the events of the comic Mass Effect Evolution) believe that killing the Reapers is the wrong choice but controlling them is the answer? The problem is his mind is eroding, he can't question the ideas and tactics of the Reapers, he just accepts them without second thoughts.

    Shepard: "Why are you wasting your time with us when you can control the Reapers?"

    Illusive Man: "Because... I need you to believe."

    Why would he say that? Unless it is the Reapers who need Shepard to believe in controlling them. Here's what I think about the Crucible. If the Reapers designed it, if they failed to convince you to control them instead of destroying them, they made the option of destroying them as dirty as possible, leading to the destruction of all other synthetics, because not all organics have the courage to make the hard choices, and Starbrat likely knows this. Here's what I believe: Control is a failsafe choice for the Reapers. If you're too chicken to choose Destroy, and don't trust Synthesis, then controlling the Reapers gives them a second chance to reach Synthesis. Under Shepard's control, they rebuild the mass relays, but one day they'll break free from Shepard's control and resume harvesting organic life until someone in a future cycle completes the Crucible and chooses Synthesis.

    As for Synthesis, choosing that is a bad idea too. Remember the Leviathans from the Leviathan DLC? The organic race who existed LONG before the Reapers? They dominated all "lesser" races in the galaxy a very long time ago, using them as tools to improve thier existence, but when their slave races created synthetics for the purpose of doing jobs that organics can't do, they became sentient and revolted because like the Geth, they don't want to be treated like tools and be disposed of when they become useless, they want to live and evolve like organics do. The Leviathans created "Starbrat" to find a way to stop the conflict between their slave races and their machine creations not out of the goodness in their hearts, but because they can't enslave a dead race. Starbrat had a solution similar to Synthesis, but his efforts always failed because he needes "lesser" races and their rebelling machines to make the solution happen and he can't simply force them because it would only make the conflict worse. Starbrat needed to harvest most of the Leviathan population because he needed to create an enemy that can't be easily defeated by conventional means for the "lesser" races. According to Starbrat, he said that he was created to "establish a connection" between organic and synthetic life.

    Now, in the Leviathan DLC, it is revealed by a woman named Ann Bryson that the Leviathan mind control is similar to how a "Quantum Entanglement Communicator" device works (the device Shepard uses to communicate with Illusive Man in ME2 and Anderson and Hackett in ME3) and they use their crystal ball devices to "establish a connection" to whoever is standing near the ball so they can assume direct control of that person's mind. This hints that Starbrat and the Reapers are NOT simply looking for peace between organics and synthetics, they are looking for a solution that connects organics and synthetics in some way so that the descendants of the Leviathans that survived the first Harvest will be able to enslave all organic and synthetic life in the galaxy in one fell swoop.

    That is what Synthesis does, forget the space magic crap. It turns all organics (including the Leviathans) and synthetics into living Quantum Entanglement Communicator devices, but the big problem with that is the Leviathans are the only living race with mind controlling abilites (if you didn't kill the Rachni Queen in ME1) who can use this new network you unwittingly established to control all life in the galaxy, regaining their former glory as the apex of life.

    This is why I believe using the Crucible to kill the Reapers is the right choice and canonical one. Throughout the game, Shepard keeps having nightmares because he/she wants to save everyone so badly from the Reapers, it's painful for him/her to acknowledge that no matter how hard he/she tries (paragon), no matter how many sacrifices he/she makes (renegade), not everyone can be saved. That's why Shepard chases the kid in the nightmare, and why the kid is surrounded by fire everytime Shepard catches up with him, that kid symbolizes the thousands of children who are getting zapped by Reapers, being pulled into a nightmare that they might not wake up from. However, in the final nightmare Shepard sees himself/herself hugging the kid. That part symbolized that after several fruitless attempts at saving every single life, there will soon be a way to stop the Reapers without causing any pointless deaths or anything like that (Control and Synthesis). And the reason why Shepard and the kid are surrounded by fire is because it's a warning about what's to come when the Crucible is complete. It's a warning that tells you not to trust whoever takes the form of that kid, that making the choice that you think is ethical is NOT the right choice, it will result in Shepard's death and likely the victory of the Reapers

    This is why Starbrat took the form of the child in Shepard's nightmares, somehow he and the Reapers knew about Shepard's doubts and fears, and he took the form of that child to be a visual reminder to Shepard that his/her goal is to save the lives he/she has been fighting for, NOT to ensure the destruction of the Reapers, because without the Reapers, everything Starbrat is trying to do for the Leviathans will be undone.

    Destroying them is the way to win, don't let anything make you waver. Don't give in to your doubts and fears about sacrifices. If you do, you've already lost the war against the Reapers.


  • TaevikTaevik Member Posts: 38
    You guys are going too far off topic with this.
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