Now, if Lawful Good players actually played lawful good, could you imagine both how many items(and how much cash) that they would miss out on and how many quests?
I don't need to imagine it. I've played it. And I mean by this that I played to the best of my own ability and in how I perceive the alignment of lawful good. The answer is, not really anything significant. Most players know that by the end of SoA (or BG1 if you want to go that direction) you end up with far more loot (money) than you can reasonably use. Not stealing and not thieving and only taking rewards (although looting the bodies and lairs of people who have attacked me is fair game), really doesn't make you miss out on anything that would break the game.
Granted, I've only played the one playthrough like that, but still. it was fun. Heck, make it a Challenge. Although I can't imagine many people thinking it is very challenging.
I am pretty certain that breaking in and entering is part of the chaos-law axis, not the good-evil axis.
We got to talking about Lawful Good, specifically (as almost any alignment thread will), and then some others were making strawman arguments and being obtuse about it, so it ended up taking like this whole page.
You can loot any house, be provoked to any needless fight, steal and kill because you know that it will bring you experience/items. Most of it can be done with good character without any repercussion (lost of reputation), but from roleplaying perspective it makes not much sense.
Pretty much every adventurer does the break and entering and stealing. If the household complains: Of course this is for the greater good! Killing things who have a bigger brain and century more life expirience because it's belongings are so shiney? The temple said so, it's an evil creature if it doesn't want to share. Hm, so if that's the good adventurer, what does the bad one do?
Um, no they don't. When I play a good aligned party, I Role Play that alignment. I don't cut corners merely because I can and it's a game. For me it is a role play experience and I take that to heart. that is THE fun of the thing.
I mean, raiding a cemetery, opening coffins, that's also a no-go if I get you right? Or pickpocketing?
Pickpocketing? My Lawful Good Cavalier has no idea what Imoen does during her free time
I don't mind playing as evil, although i prefer good, as it's in my nature, but I'm kinda disappointed in BG evil.. it mostly invovles being a mindless jerk, or asking for more money/rewards. The reputation systme screws with your evil party and seem to prevent you from completing too many quests. The advantages of being good are much more than being evil.
I think more quests should have evil alternatives, more evil quests, and more evil bonuses to match good alignment. It's one of those things I hoped BGEE would have fixed in BG2.
The only thing I dislike about having an evil party is they complain when I donate gold to keep my reputation high enough to not be attacked by guards.
The price penality apparently get an control atm, i didn't player yet with reputation 1 or 2, but the prices aren't absurd as in the past with rep 3 or 4 (robe of vecna for 200.000gp for example). However the constant guards ambush is something nice sometimes cos it's an infinite flow of gold (each group of guards drop 5 full plate mails that means 9000 gp +some other items.
@Schneidend Yes, it is all just random minor things, except for a few that seem cool like the random house tucked in behind the Temple of Helm. Killing the Armored dude in there is fun. Also the houses stuffed with horrors, the Balduran quest, A wizard/druid choice that can cause some people to think for a while, the thieves, the mage and his lackeys. An actual quest that ties to Sil and her Sirines, an early introduction to Gorpel Hind's shenanigans... etc.
Most recently when I had been trying to finish up 3-4 characters for import to BG2, I stopped going into random houses in Baldur's Gate. All the big quests are pretty much given to you just while walking around, and most of the others come from shop owners or people in taverns. Truly the only major items that require you to break in someplace are the Helm of Glory and Cloak of Balduran (assuming you do it the "right" way).
I actually find it a bit tedious to go into every single house that has a quest or battle on every single playthrough. The same way I don't do Firewine Ruins or Ulcaster every time, and I usually pick one of the TotSC quests and skip the other two. If you are only going to play a game once, sure, do absolutely every thing you can. If you are going to play a game over and over, it's some kind of masochism to try to do full completionist runs every time.
You do cap xp at a certain point, and those items don't transfer to the second game with you...
I tend to do a lot of extra exploring early on (especially if I am dual-classing the PC or any NPCs) but once I enter BG City I have a tendency to focus more on the plot line and often don't bother with the random houses/quests in BG City.
By this time the party is generally well equipped and I have a barrel or two in front of the Elfsong full of extra scrolls, potions, and wands and other misc equipment that we will likely never use so unless there is a particular item we are looking for we just move the game towards its conclusion.
I even tried it, but somehow my Paladin is not able to access the portal (The master of the place did not try to kill me, he captured him for a scientific experiment). Oh well, he has to wait till he can confront the master himself, does anyone have some food and water at hand?
Granted, my Paladin is not one of the sharpest tools in the shed, INT on 3 for the perfect CHA 18 does leave him a little simpleminded.
I didn't get this at first and then I realized that you were intentionally trying to be obtuse, apparently to make a point???
You not only get captured by The Master, but he tries and succeeds in killing at minimum two of your companions. And then he spends days or more torturing you. I think pretty much anything goes at that stage. Add to the fact that, that quite a few of the masters servants DO try and kill you, presumably on his orders ("Kill any errant slaves in my compound who aren't locked up"). By default, that is an attempt to kill me. Besides, who says you need to 'Steal' the activation key to the portal? Use it and leave it.
What I was saying was, my 'Good' parties don't break INTO someone's house and rob them while they aren't there. We also don't pick pockets, nor pick fights unless we have no other option. But if someone intentionally wrongs us, they become fair game.
My only intention was pointing out a general flaw in your reasoning. The way I see it is, that the floorplan is devided between your usual dungeon setting, followed by a housing setting. Can you actually be 100% sure that the rooms next to the dryad tree do not belong to someone else? Like the smithy there is used by the grey dwarfs (who actually attack you, so no worry about looting them). The place where you can find that magical two handed sword is even in a different plane, housing imps and a magical being. Did you attack them as well? I mean, even though they attack you on sight, you actually stumbled in their turf, on their plane of existence. So what is wrong if the cheeky imps actually try to defend their home?
If you pay attention to your roleplaying, and stand by the fact that you do not loot, steal or pickpocket anybody who is not present to try to kill you, then don't tell me that it was my idea to pick a fight. Instead I would simply rephrase it with "intents to do bodily harm" and all is nice and shiny.
@Schneidend if you /facepalm every time I make a comment I certainly hope you have sufficient medical insurance. It would not be a good idea to neglect your own health if you can't keep up with the idea that a forum is a medium where everyone can share different opinions.
My only intention was pointing out a general flaw in your reasoning. The way I see it is, that the floorplan is devided between your usual dungeon setting, followed by a housing setting. Can you actually be 100% sure that the rooms next to the dryad tree do not belong to someone else? Like the smithy there is used by the grey dwarfs (who actually attack you, so no worry about looting them). The place where you can find that magical two handed sword is even in a different plane, housing imps and a magical being. Did you attack them as well? I mean, even though they attack you on sight, you actually stumbled in their turf, on their plane of existence. So what is wrong if the cheeky imps actually try to defend their home?
Not meaning to undermine your point in this discussion, but if you talk to the 'pickled men' in Irenicus' dungeon using Rielev's power core then you will find out at lot about the dungeon contents. They will hint that the beautiful room is actually from Irenicus and also some things about the genie.
In the grand scheme, I do agree that it is really difficult to draw the line when it is okay or not okay to take items from containers if you play a "good" game.
This is why I think it is easier to play (chaotic) neutral.
My only intention was pointing out a general flaw in your reasoning. The way I see it is, that the floorplan is devided between your usual dungeon setting, followed by a housing setting. Can you actually be 100% sure that the rooms next to the dryad tree do not belong to someone else? Like the smithy there is used by the grey dwarfs (who actually attack you, so no worry about looting them). The place where you can find that magical two handed sword is even in a different plane, housing imps and a magical being. Did you attack them as well? I mean, even though they attack you on sight, you actually stumbled in their turf, on their plane of existence. So what is wrong if the cheeky imps actually try to defend their home?
Not meaning to undermine your point in this discussion, but if you talk to the 'pickled men' in Irenicus' dungeon using Rielev's power core then you will find out at lot about the dungeon contents. They will hint that the beautiful room is actually from Irenicus and also some things about the genie.
In the grand scheme, I do agree that it is really difficult to draw the line when it is okay or not okay to take items from containers if you play a "good" game.
This is why I think it is easier to play (chaotic) neutral.
You confirm my point. If the "beautiful room" is Irenicus room, then who uses the room next to the portal? Someone who puts a helmet in his dresser? And if the master needs to use the portal, which only works with a portal stone, why did he leave it behind? Isn't the chance higher, that someone else uses the room and the stone, maybe even the dryads? That is exactly why my Paladin refused to steal from someone who is not the master and didn't want to kill him - so no portal stone, and therefore he will most likely die of either boredom or hunger. The challenge failed. So I setup a new rule and changed it accordingly to the phrasing "means bodily harm", and found it is not only working, it's actually quite a challenge to not break the rules and still get enough money to follow through the chapters.
The circular room is the beautiful room I indicated, so you will be able to get the portal stone that is locked in that chest. I do not recall that something is said about the square furnished room by the pickled men, but they do make a statement about the statuette that you need to get into the air-pocket with the imps and genie. ... so you may not be able to steal from that room then
I think with regards to the EE a good reason to play evil is that all the of the new content Caters to an evil party were as probably only half realistically caters for a good aligned pc so from a content perspective that's a very good reason to play an evil player character.
I think that the only difficulty an evil character would have is with some of the side quests in Neeras questline
The circular room is the beautiful room I indicated, so you will be able to get the portal stone that is locked in that chest. I do not recall that something is said about the square furnished room by the pickled men, but they do make a statement about the statuette that you need to get into the air-pocket with the imps and genie. ... so you may not be able to steal from that room then
Edit: I really cannot type well.
oh, then I have made a mistake. I thought the stone is next to the portal. I actually believed Imoen that the room was for his lost love, kept in perfect condition. Pretty sure that that one didn't want to see me dead, but I didn't confirm it with all the minions in tubes.
I think with regards to the EE a good reason to play evil is that all the of the new content Caters to an evil party were as probably only half realistically caters for a good aligned pc so from a content perspective that's a very good reason to play an evil player character.
I think that the only difficulty an evil character would have is with some of the side quests in Neeras questline
I'm not entirely sure how either Neera or Rasaad's quests cater to evil players at all. Why would an evil player go out of their way to help/save a hippie commune in the woods? Similarly I can see an evil player, especially a DMM trucing with Rasaad in SoA, but certainly not ToB.
Even Hexxat, alignment aside, has pretty neutral quests.
Most if not all of the best benefits from the trials at the end of SoA go to the 'Evil' Charname.
Really?
Pride: Good reward= 20% resistance to fire/cold/electricity Evil reward= Gain 200k exp, a robe of the Evil Archmagi, a few level 9 scrolls.
Good wins, since minor resistances to common elements beats experience and gear found elsewhere.
Fear: Good = Immunity to +1 weapons and less Evil = +2 to CON and a cloak of Nymph skin.
Since Protection from Magical Weapons stacks with that, Good wins, because immunity to all physical attacks is vastly better than Con, unless you're a midget, and probably even then.
Selfishness: Good = +10% to magic resistance, -2 HP, -1 Dexterity. Evil = +2 to ac
AC is largely worthless in Throne of Bhaal, whilst MR is all important. Good wins, even with the stat loss.
Greed: Good = +2 to saves Evil = +15 hps, plus Blackrazor
HP is largely irrelevant in the long term, but Save or Dies are forever. Blackrazor's nice, but frankly there are better swords out there.
Wrath: Good = +1 to WIS and CHA Evil = +2 to STR (1 of which is, if I recall, added on top of all other gear). +1 Primary stat.
Strength is actually useful, as, usually, is your primary stat, so Evil finally wins, unless you're a Mage or Cleric, in which case Wisdom is still useful.
If you want to argue that "Evil" lets you pick whatever, hence getting the best of all five, then fine (though the hell trials assigning a very arbitrary alignment change for anything but the holiest of participants is just ugh), but the "Good" response for the hell trials is no slouch for getting rewards.
I should note that they've removed the +1 Primary Stat from Wrath, so Evil gets screwed even more now
Also the +2 AC bonus either doesn't apply or seems to apply in such a way that it doesn't actually matter (it reduces your base AC to 8, so if you wear any armour it actually doesn't change a damned thing.
I'm not entirely sure how either Neera or Rasaad's quests cater to evil players at all. Why would an evil player go out of their way to help/save a hippie commune in the woods? Similarly I can see an evil player, especially a DMM trucing with Rasaad in SoA, but certainly not ToB.
Even Hexxat, alignment aside, has pretty neutral quests.
perhaps cater is too strong of a word. But, I would say that the new content is certainly more accessible for evil. Rasads quest is much more forgiving to evil players(DMM aside) then either Dorn or Hexxats is to good. Sure his alignment is good but you can pretty much always take a corrupting approach in any dialogue with him. and his quest to my knowledge never seemed to force a character into an action which would be unacceptable.(I didn't see much of his TOB quest)
I agree that Neeras route is not evil and in many ways id say its more in keeping with a good alignment then Rasads. However it still never really forces your character into any particular way of behaving that makes you brake alignment. At least not to the extent of the evil characters.
Dorns quest line is quiet obviously inaccessible to good as in order to even accept him into your party you have to accept murdering a paladin which should be apretty big no no for pretty much every good pc
Hexxats quest line maybe fairly neutral when looked at in isolation. If you want to access it though, your going to have to accept Hexxat herself. This is pretty troublesome from a good perspective as right of the bat you see her murder someone and on top of that you have to accept her routinely murdering more people(albeit ofscreen).
personally I just feel you have a much easier time with the new content if your evil then if your good. It isn't entirely one sided of course but id say it favours an evil pc if your looking to experience as much as possible in one run
I'm not entirely sure how either Neera or Rasaad's quests cater to evil players at all. Why would an evil player go out of their way to help/save a hippie commune in the woods? Similarly I can see an evil player, especially a DMM trucing with Rasaad in SoA, but certainly not ToB.
Even Hexxat, alignment aside, has pretty neutral quests.
perhaps cater is too strong of a word. But, I would say that the new content is certainly more accessible for evil. Rasads quest is much more forgiving to evil players(DMM aside) then either Dorn or Hexxats is to good. Sure his alignment is good but you can pretty much always take a corrupting approach in any dialogue with him. and his quest to my knowledge never seemed to force a character into an action which would be unacceptable.(I didn't see much of his TOB quest)
I agree that Neeras route is not evil and in many ways id say its more in keeping with a good alignment then Rasads. However it still never really forces your character into any particular way of behaving that makes you brake alignment. At least not to the extent of the evil characters.
Dorns quest line is quiet obviously inaccessible to good as in order to even accept him into your party you have to accept murdering a paladin which should be apretty big no no for pretty much every good pc
Hexxats quest line maybe fairly neutral when looked at in isolation. If you want to access it though, your going to have to accept Hexxat herself. This is pretty troublesome from a good perspective as right of the bat you see her murder someone and on top of that you have to accept her routinely murdering more people(albeit ofscreen).
personally I just feel you have a much easier time with the new content if your evil then if your good. It isn't entirely one sided of course but id say it favours an evil pc if your looking to experience as much as possible in one run
My only intention was pointing out a general flaw in your reasoning. The way I see it is, that the floorplan is devided between your usual dungeon setting, followed by a housing setting. Can you actually be 100% sure that the rooms next to the dryad tree do not belong to someone else? Like the smithy there is used by the grey dwarfs (who actually attack you, so no worry about looting them). The place where you can find that magical two handed sword is even in a different plane, housing imps and a magical being. Did you attack them as well? I mean, even though they attack you on sight, you actually stumbled in their turf, on their plane of existence. So what is wrong if the cheeky imps actually try to defend their home?
If you pay attention to your roleplaying, and stand by the fact that you do not loot, steal or pickpocket anybody who is not present to try to kill you, then don't tell me that it was my idea to pick a fight. Instead I would simply rephrase it with "intents to do bodily harm" and all is nice and shiny.
@Schneidend if you /facepalm every time I make a comment I certainly hope you have sufficient medical insurance. It would not be a good idea to neglect your own health if you can't keep up with the idea that a forum is a medium where everyone can share different opinions.
I don't facepalm every time you post, just when you try to use the same sort of flawed strawman tactics you do in the other thread. @the_spyder put it well when they said you were being "obtuse."
Anyway, all of these rooms are part of a dungeon nightmarescape designed to torture and slaughter innocents, and imprison and torture you for some nefarious purpose. Any material resources of Irenicus or anybody who serves him are forfeit if it means increasing your odds of survival. That's got nothing to do with alignment. It's called common sense.
Well... I'd have been a bit more civil about it but what Schneidy said was generally logical. Chateu Irenicus is NOT a house... its a dungeon, jail and torture chamber. Any resources that Irenicus has stored there are clearly not going to be used for good causes or to pay for his children's tuition.
Also in terms of pickpocketing/stealing from houses.... there are roleplaying ways around this. I said before semi-jokingly that my LG Cavalier is not privy to what Imoen does in all her spare time, but I actually DO play that way, lol. When you have more mischievous NPCs like Imoen or Jan I think you can get away with them running off solemnly swearing to be up to no good while your law-abiding, justice promoting charname is walking around the promenade to take in the sights, talking to other characters or under the sheets with a rabid Jaheira.
My only intention was pointing out a general flaw in your reasoning. The way I see it is, that the floorplan is devided between your usual dungeon setting, followed by a housing setting. Can you actually be 100% sure that the rooms next to the dryad tree do not belong to someone else? Like the smithy there is used by the grey dwarfs (who actually attack you, so no worry about looting them). The place where you can find that magical two handed sword is even in a different plane, housing imps and a magical being. Did you attack them as well? I mean, even though they attack you on sight, you actually stumbled in their turf, on their plane of existence. So what is wrong if the cheeky imps actually try to defend their home?
If you pay attention to your roleplaying, and stand by the fact that you do not loot, steal or pickpocket anybody who is not present to try to kill you, then don't tell me that it was my idea to pick a fight. Instead I would simply rephrase it with "intents to do bodily harm" and all is nice and shiny.
I see no flaw what so ever. If I were a Super Villian with an underground lair, I wouldn't have my own sleeping quarters be some dank hole in the wall. I would have it be a nice place, much like the quarters you encounter right next to the Otyugh lair, and guarded by the same Golems you find in the rest of the complex. It seems reasonable to assume that the entire place is owned by the same guy.
And the room is next to it is a room with three Dryads in it who tell you that the rooms beyond belong to Irenicus' girlfriend. They confirm that he is a really nasty piece of work and has been using them as slaves and sexually assaulting them, not to mention holding them prisoner. Gee, yeah. I think that pretty much makes it a reasonable assumption that both rooms belong to the same maniac that has been torturing me for weeks and killing my friends.
As for the imps, hmmm... well, the key to the extra dimensional door is held by the same maniac who has been torturing me. The door is actually in his lair and I don't actually find out it is a separate dimension until I pass through it and get attacked by the same imps (which are small demons) you claim are innocent and merely defending their own. In fact, these are the same creatures who attack me on the next level up in the same room where we find the broken body of Khalid, which Imoen confirms Irenicus had killed before her very eyes. This pretty much confirms that they are working together.
Then there is the Djinni in that extra dimensional pocket who tells you that the whole dimensional pocket is part of the prison that Irenicus created and he is being held himself. I think that it is reasonable to conclude from all of this that the dungeon you are in is controlled by a mad man intent on doing you harm.
Finally, I didn't intend to "Pick a fight". I was holding a reasonable discussion. I suggested that my good party doesn't loot or steal. When you called me out and effectively called me a liar, I merely explained my point of view. If that has hurt your feelings, I'm sorry. I would respectfully submit that participating in an open forum, people are going to disagree with you. Getting bent out of shape about it will probably not make your experience that great. Just a suggestion.
My only intention was pointing out a general flaw in your reasoning. The way I see it is, that the floorplan is devided between your usual dungeon setting, followed by a housing setting. Can you actually be 100% sure that the rooms next to the dryad tree do not belong to someone else? Like the smithy there is used by the grey dwarfs (who actually attack you, so no worry about looting them). The place where you can find that magical two handed sword is even in a different plane, housing imps and a magical being. Did you attack them as well? I mean, even though they attack you on sight, you actually stumbled in their turf, on their plane of existence. So what is wrong if the cheeky imps actually try to defend their home?
If you pay attention to your roleplaying, and stand by the fact that you do not loot, steal or pickpocket anybody who is not present to try to kill you, then don't tell me that it was my idea to pick a fight. Instead I would simply rephrase it with "intents to do bodily harm" and all is nice and shiny.
I see no flaw what so ever. If I were a Super Villian with an underground lair, I wouldn't have my own sleeping quarters be some dank hole in the wall. I would have it be a nice place, much like the quarters you encounter right next to the Otyugh lair, and guarded by the same Golems you find in the rest of the complex. It seems reasonable to assume that the entire place is owned by the same guy.
And the room is next to it is a room with three Dryads in it who tell you that the rooms beyond belong to Irenicus' girlfriend. They confirm that he is a really nasty piece of work and has been using them as slaves and sexually assaulting them, not to mention holding them prisoner. Gee, yeah. I think that pretty much makes it a reasonable assumption that both rooms belong to the same maniac that has been torturing me for weeks and killing my friends.
Well, so the ex-girlfriend has ist coming because "the GF is the enemys resource, that is reason enough"? I begin to understand why @schneidend behaves like he does.
Still, if she is the love lost, for whatever reason, what part did she have in the capture or the other underground activities? How can you even think about stealing from someone who actually seems to have a sense of beauty and, if you can even make the asumption about her character, is very far apart from the mental state of said master who seemed to even have sent her 2 Golems so she and her room "is not to be disturbed"?
What I learned in the other thread was, that some people made an effort with examples and official quotes, while a very selected few behaved like six year olds: "no, means no, who needs official sources and valid points? I can ignore them all!". Since I didn't want to continue a shouting contest, I quit that thread and I will not continue argueing with a certain someone. I still follow the thread but it's once again on square one, even though at least three other people dropped in a heapload of insightful and conclusive material. A real shame that they follow it up with alignment chart discussions of TV series which haven't really had any connection to the thread at all and just represent the opinion of the one doing the chart.
And just to verify, @the_spyder just has a different opinion about the LG alignment, but at least he supports it with some reasoning you might (or not) agree with. Nothing wrong with that. I seriously doubt that he would suggest to actually "go for the ex-girlfriend" just because the boyfriend is not only a serious headcase, but also not available. I think the only alignment who would even suggest something like that is indeed quite unique.
Irenicus built that room. Ellesime has never even been in that room. You can find out as much long before you ever even see the room. Furthermore, if she were in the dungeon (she's not) the kind of person to live with a mass-murdering torturer rapist boyfriend IN his mass-murdering torture rape base, then yes her possessions are most assuredly forfeit when the goal is survival.
What you're arguing would be like not using the gun of the live-in girlfriend of a criminal who was kidnapping you for ransom.
the kind of person to live with a mass-murdering torturer rapist boyfriend IN his mass-murdering torture rape base, then yes her possessions are most assuredly forfeit when the goal is survival.
What you're arguing would be like not using the gun of the live-in girlfriend of a criminal who was kidnapping you for ransom.
@RazaDelrom = it is sometimes very hard to follow your logic.
Who said that Ellesime "Had it coming"? Or was that something you read into what I posted? "Ellesime's room" is not actually where she lives (lived), it is a shrine "Built to her" much in the same way that some killers build shrines to the objects of their twisted obsessions. You find this out from the Dryads when you talk to them, before you enter the room.
Ellesime herself has been dead for quite some time, having died before the events of BG1. You may have noticed a rock face sculpture being carved into a cliff near Nashkal mines by some crazy guy who steals two emeralds to complete his masterpiece. That is in memorium to Ellesime. You may also remember several clones on the upper level of the dungeon. These are attempts by Irenicus to bring her back to life. 'Violating' her room, isn't doing anything at all 'To her'. And it isn't violating her resting place either, before you go there. It is searching through a room owned by a torturer and mad man for a way out.
It should also be noted that, among other things, Irenicus stole all of your stuff. Searching through his rooms to find it is legitimate. And anything that helps you escape is also legitimate.
The flaw in the logic train that I think you are tripping over is what some people call lawful stupid. Some people seem to think that playing lawful good means that you aren't allowed to be human, make mistakes or color outside the lines in even the smallest degree. Some will even take it to the extreme and think it means that you, as the player, have to work really hard to trip your own self up with ridiculously insane restrictions. Being Lawful good means setting a high standard, absolutely. It doesn't mean "I'm Dudley Do Right and can't cross the street against the light to save the world". It means intelligent, measured application of what is right and in accordance with your code. In playing lawful good, if I had to kill a fly in order to stop the death of an innocent, that fly would be DEAD quicker than you can blink. But I still keep an eye on the prize (that of the best and most good by the least possible evil manner possible).
Irenicus is a bad dude. Pure and simple. Even if he hadn't attacked Charname's party and killed some of his allies and tortured others, take a look at what he does to his own people. You may recall the pathetic creature in the glass jar in one of the first rooms. Irenicus did that to him, tortured him to such a degree that he begs for death. Irenicus did this in front of Imoen, to make her as sick as he is. He ultimately wants to commit a kind of genocide. He's Bad. Taking from him something that might help you escape and end his reign is only marginally evil (if it is even that).
Life is messy. You do your absolute best. But you don't ham string yourself needlessly to do it.
Ellesime herself has been dead for quite some time, having died before the events of BG1. You may have noticed a rock face sculpture being carved into a cliff near Nashkal mines by some crazy guy who steals two emeralds to complete his masterpiece. That is in memorium to Ellesime. You may also remember several clones on the upper level of the dungeon. These are attempts by Irenicus to bring her back to life. 'Violating' her room, isn't doing anything at all 'To her'. And it isn't violating her resting place either, before you go there. It is searching through a room owned by a torturer and mad man for a way out.
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Granted, I've only played the one playthrough like that, but still. it was fun. Heck, make it a Challenge. Although I can't imagine many people thinking it is very challenging.
As in "why yes Santa I was "awful" good this year - honest!"
I think more quests should have evil alternatives, more evil quests, and more evil bonuses to match good alignment. It's one of those things I hoped BGEE would have fixed in BG2.
I actually find it a bit tedious to go into every single house that has a quest or battle on every single playthrough. The same way I don't do Firewine Ruins or Ulcaster every time, and I usually pick one of the TotSC quests and skip the other two. If you are only going to play a game once, sure, do absolutely every thing you can. If you are going to play a game over and over, it's some kind of masochism to try to do full completionist runs every time.
You do cap xp at a certain point, and those items don't transfer to the second game with you...
By this time the party is generally well equipped and I have a barrel or two in front of the Elfsong full of extra scrolls, potions, and wands and other misc equipment that we will likely never use so unless there is a particular item we are looking for we just move the game towards its conclusion.
If you pay attention to your roleplaying, and stand by the fact that you do not loot, steal or pickpocket anybody who is not present to try to kill you, then don't tell me that it was my idea to pick a fight. Instead I would simply rephrase it with "intents to do bodily harm" and all is nice and shiny.
@Schneidend
if you /facepalm every time I make a comment I certainly hope you have sufficient medical insurance. It would not be a good idea to neglect your own health if you can't keep up with the idea that a forum is a medium where everyone can share different opinions.
In the grand scheme, I do agree that it is really difficult to draw the line when it is okay or not okay to take items from containers if you play a "good" game.
This is why I think it is easier to play (chaotic) neutral.
So I setup a new rule and changed it accordingly to the phrasing "means bodily harm", and found it is not only working, it's actually quite a challenge to not break the rules and still get enough money to follow through the chapters.
Edit: I really cannot type well.
all the of the new content Caters to an evil party were as probably only half realistically caters for a good aligned pc so from a content perspective that's a very good reason to play an evil player character.
I think that the only difficulty an evil character would have is with some of the side quests in Neeras questline
Even Hexxat, alignment aside, has pretty neutral quests.
Pride:
Good reward= 20% resistance to fire/cold/electricity
Evil reward= Gain 200k exp, a robe of the Evil Archmagi, a few level 9 scrolls.
Good wins, since minor resistances to common elements beats experience and gear found elsewhere.
Fear:
Good = Immunity to +1 weapons and less
Evil = +2 to CON and a cloak of Nymph skin.
Since Protection from Magical Weapons stacks with that, Good wins, because immunity to all physical attacks is vastly better than Con, unless you're a midget, and probably even then.
Selfishness:
Good = +10% to magic resistance, -2 HP, -1 Dexterity.
Evil = +2 to ac
AC is largely worthless in Throne of Bhaal, whilst MR is all important. Good wins, even with the stat loss.
Greed:
Good = +2 to saves
Evil = +15 hps, plus Blackrazor
HP is largely irrelevant in the long term, but Save or Dies are forever. Blackrazor's nice, but frankly there are better swords out there.
Wrath:
Good = +1 to WIS and CHA
Evil = +2 to STR (1 of which is, if I recall, added on top of all other gear). +1 Primary stat.
Strength is actually useful, as, usually, is your primary stat, so Evil finally wins, unless you're a Mage or Cleric, in which case Wisdom is still useful.
If you want to argue that "Evil" lets you pick whatever, hence getting the best of all five, then fine (though the hell trials assigning a very arbitrary alignment change for anything but the holiest of participants is just ugh), but the "Good" response for the hell trials is no slouch for getting rewards.
Also the +2 AC bonus either doesn't apply or seems to apply in such a way that it doesn't actually matter (it reduces your base AC to 8, so if you wear any armour it actually doesn't change a damned thing.
perhaps cater is too strong of a word. But, I would say that the new content is certainly more accessible for evil. Rasads quest is much more forgiving to evil players(DMM aside) then either Dorn or Hexxats is to good. Sure his alignment is good but you can pretty much always take a corrupting approach in any dialogue with him. and his quest to my knowledge never seemed to force a character into an action which would be unacceptable.(I didn't see much of his TOB quest)
I agree that Neeras route is not evil and in many ways id say its more in keeping with a good alignment then Rasads. However it still never really forces your character into any particular way of behaving that makes you brake alignment. At least not to the extent of the evil characters.
Dorns quest line is quiet obviously inaccessible to good as in order to even accept him into your party you have to accept murdering a paladin which should be apretty big no no for pretty much every good pc
Hexxats quest line maybe fairly neutral when looked at in isolation. If you want to access it though, your going to have to accept Hexxat herself. This is pretty troublesome from a good perspective as right of the bat you see her murder someone and on top of that you have to accept her routinely murdering more people(albeit ofscreen).
personally I just feel you have a much easier time with the new content if your evil then if your good. It isn't entirely one sided of course but id say it favours an evil pc if your looking to experience as much as possible in one run
Anyway, all of these rooms are part of a dungeon nightmarescape designed to torture and slaughter innocents, and imprison and torture you for some nefarious purpose. Any material resources of Irenicus or anybody who serves him are forfeit if it means increasing your odds of survival. That's got nothing to do with alignment. It's called common sense.
Also in terms of pickpocketing/stealing from houses.... there are roleplaying ways around this. I said before semi-jokingly that my LG Cavalier is not privy to what Imoen does in all her spare time, but I actually DO play that way, lol. When you have more mischievous NPCs like Imoen or Jan I think you can get away with them running off solemnly swearing to be up to no good while your law-abiding, justice promoting charname is walking around the promenade to take in the sights, talking to other characters or under the sheets with a rabid Jaheira.
And the room is next to it is a room with three Dryads in it who tell you that the rooms beyond belong to Irenicus' girlfriend. They confirm that he is a really nasty piece of work and has been using them as slaves and sexually assaulting them, not to mention holding them prisoner. Gee, yeah. I think that pretty much makes it a reasonable assumption that both rooms belong to the same maniac that has been torturing me for weeks and killing my friends.
As for the imps, hmmm... well, the key to the extra dimensional door is held by the same maniac who has been torturing me. The door is actually in his lair and I don't actually find out it is a separate dimension until I pass through it and get attacked by the same imps (which are small demons) you claim are innocent and merely defending their own. In fact, these are the same creatures who attack me on the next level up in the same room where we find the broken body of Khalid, which Imoen confirms Irenicus had killed before her very eyes. This pretty much confirms that they are working together.
Then there is the Djinni in that extra dimensional pocket who tells you that the whole dimensional pocket is part of the prison that Irenicus created and he is being held himself. I think that it is reasonable to conclude from all of this that the dungeon you are in is controlled by a mad man intent on doing you harm.
Finally, I didn't intend to "Pick a fight". I was holding a reasonable discussion. I suggested that my good party doesn't loot or steal. When you called me out and effectively called me a liar, I merely explained my point of view. If that has hurt your feelings, I'm sorry. I would respectfully submit that participating in an open forum, people are going to disagree with you. Getting bent out of shape about it will probably not make your experience that great. Just a suggestion.
Still, if she is the love lost, for whatever reason, what part did she have in the capture or the other underground activities? How can you even think about stealing from someone who actually seems to have a sense of beauty and, if you can even make the asumption about her character, is very far apart from the mental state of said master who seemed to even have sent her 2 Golems so she and her room "is not to be disturbed"?
What I learned in the other thread was, that some people made an effort with examples and official quotes, while a very selected few behaved like six year olds: "no, means no, who needs official sources and valid points? I can ignore them all!". Since I didn't want to continue a shouting contest, I quit that thread and I will not continue argueing with a certain someone. I still follow the thread but it's once again on square one, even though at least three other people dropped in a heapload of insightful and conclusive material. A real shame that they follow it up with alignment chart discussions of TV series which haven't really had any connection to the thread at all and just represent the opinion of the one doing the chart.
And just to verify, @the_spyder just has a different opinion about the LG alignment, but at least he supports it with some reasoning you might (or not) agree with. Nothing wrong with that. I seriously doubt that he would suggest to actually "go for the ex-girlfriend" just because the boyfriend is not only a serious headcase, but also not available. I think the only alignment who would even suggest something like that is indeed quite unique.
Irenicus built that room. Ellesime has never even been in that room. You can find out as much long before you ever even see the room. Furthermore, if she were in the dungeon (she's not) the kind of person to live with a mass-murdering torturer rapist boyfriend IN his mass-murdering torture rape base, then yes her possessions are most assuredly forfeit when the goal is survival.
What you're arguing would be like not using the gun of the live-in girlfriend of a criminal who was kidnapping you for ransom.
Who said that Ellesime "Had it coming"? Or was that something you read into what I posted? "Ellesime's room" is not actually where she lives (lived), it is a shrine "Built to her" much in the same way that some killers build shrines to the objects of their twisted obsessions. You find this out from the Dryads when you talk to them, before you enter the room.
Ellesime herself has been dead for quite some time, having died before the events of BG1. You may have noticed a rock face sculpture being carved into a cliff near Nashkal mines by some crazy guy who steals two emeralds to complete his masterpiece. That is in memorium to Ellesime. You may also remember several clones on the upper level of the dungeon. These are attempts by Irenicus to bring her back to life. 'Violating' her room, isn't doing anything at all 'To her'. And it isn't violating her resting place either, before you go there. It is searching through a room owned by a torturer and mad man for a way out.
It should also be noted that, among other things, Irenicus stole all of your stuff. Searching through his rooms to find it is legitimate. And anything that helps you escape is also legitimate.
The flaw in the logic train that I think you are tripping over is what some people call lawful stupid. Some people seem to think that playing lawful good means that you aren't allowed to be human, make mistakes or color outside the lines in even the smallest degree. Some will even take it to the extreme and think it means that you, as the player, have to work really hard to trip your own self up with ridiculously insane restrictions. Being Lawful good means setting a high standard, absolutely. It doesn't mean "I'm Dudley Do Right and can't cross the street against the light to save the world". It means intelligent, measured application of what is right and in accordance with your code. In playing lawful good, if I had to kill a fly in order to stop the death of an innocent, that fly would be DEAD quicker than you can blink. But I still keep an eye on the prize (that of the best and most good by the least possible evil manner possible).
Irenicus is a bad dude. Pure and simple. Even if he hadn't attacked Charname's party and killed some of his allies and tortured others, take a look at what he does to his own people. You may recall the pathetic creature in the glass jar in one of the first rooms. Irenicus did that to him, tortured him to such a degree that he begs for death. Irenicus did this in front of Imoen, to make her as sick as he is. He ultimately wants to commit a kind of genocide. He's Bad. Taking from him something that might help you escape and end his reign is only marginally evil (if it is even that).
Life is messy. You do your absolute best. But you don't ham string yourself needlessly to do it.