Expansion DLC for the new NPC's

trinit

so far it seems new NPC's aren't appearing that often in "who is your favourite character" poll from devs, old NPC's still have the lead.

some might argue not enough time has passed, and while that MAY be true i hope devs will consider making an expansion pack for the new NPC's (as in- expanded relationships, interjections, banters).

but how about you? do you think new NPC's could use some more additions to become fully fleshed? or are they fine as they are?

edit: by "expansion" i mean bringing the content on the same level as the old npc romantic interests, not adding more, since the new NPC's clearly have less relationship talks, banters and interjections.

recklessheart

If there is to be any content DLC for the game, I would rather it was content that did not rely on or require the involvement of the new NPCs, to be honest.

Coutelier

I'm not against it, but I don't think it would be right to expand on new NPC's too much, unless the same could be done for originals as well.

As for their popularity... it's like Star Trek, The Next Generation; in many ways superior but will never be as recognized as the original. Or originals, in this case.

shawne

Any comparison is going to be problematized by the simple fact that the original characters have been around for much, much longer, and you're always going to have that bit of nostalgia that doesn't factor into perceptions of Dorn, Hexxat, Neera and Rasaad.

That said, one of the things I think Beamdog got absolutely right this time was that they figured out the very delicate balancing act the new characters require. I mean, to use a different comparison, what's one of the most common complaints about mod NPCs? That they never shut up and/or they take over the story (Saerileth and Chloe being the "horror stories" of the day). And in this respect, the EE gang is on par with their SoA counterparts - they have roughly the same amounts of exchanges and interjections, the same types of "personal quests" (with Dorn's being comparable to Anomen's in terms of the multiple outcomes) and so on. In fact, you could argue that the EE NPCs already are expanded, since they're the only characters who have additional side quests in ToB.

Ideally, Beamdog would have been allowed to enhance all NPCs equally; but given that current circumstances won't allow for that, I think it would be a bad idea to further expand on the EE characters; it would tilt the balance too unfairly towards the new guys. A better idea would be to add new characters (again, with the same amount of content as both the original NPCs and the EE party members), because that will generate interest without blatantly making those new characters the "stars" of the game.

trinit

@shawne well, we disagree here. excluding personal quests, the new npc's actually have considerably less to say then the rest of the crew. TOB and watcher keep was mostly silent, beyond few romance talks.

i agree it would be wrong for them to have too much content (like saerileth, yes) but as it stands i think they are far from reaching that point.

ChildofBhaal599

i think what is important is that old NPCs only really have BG2, while the new ones have enough in both games to be equal

shawne

trinit said:

@shawne well, we disagree here. excluding personal quests, the new npc's actually have considerably less to say then the rest of the crew. TOB and watcher keep was mostly silent, beyond few romance talks.

That's factually untrue - you can see here the breakdown in terms of SoA/ToB banters for the original BG2 characters. Note how many zeroes are listed for ToB; the only character who has a lot to say is Sarevok, for obvious reasons.

Xei_Win_Toh

More is better.

Pantalion

Apathy is the only appropriate response on polls.

Generally methinks that comparing characters we've played with over and over forever with characters we've just encountered is unlikely to produce an instant change in favourites. I do actually really like Rasaad and Neera both (and, coincidentally, both fill roles I'd otherwise need to field custom characters to run). They're in my top ten characters easily. They may not be my absolute favourite, but I'm confident enough in the EE team that Dorn and Hexxat won't be my least favourites either.

Extra content? Sure. I'm greedy, but I'd also like multiclass kits and the ability to play a Monk/Cleric/Thief, so I think I can live with what's already there.

trinit

@shawne factually, new NPC's content is not on par with old NPC's, regardless of TOB banters.

Eudaemonium

Honestly, I think any additional new NPC content, such as an expanded Dorn romance track (which I would personally quite enjoy), should be added by players via mods. Like that Neera romance expansion mod in BGEE (though I think the author is on the Overhaul team now, but the principle holds).

I'd rather Beamdog concentrated on adding others things to the game, like whole new side-adventures like Adventure Y. Followed by Adventures Z, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, etc. Basically, I want them to add whole new areas and sidequests. New multi-layer quests like Watcher's Keep and Durlag's Tower (but not necessarily in the form of a keep/tower, but rather comparable in terms of content and length). If players are dissatisfied with the present new romances and interjections, then I think the fans are equally capable of writing their own additions. It is such additions, after all, that have kept BG alive for so long as it is.

shawne

trinit said:

@shawne factually, new NPC's content is not on par with old NPC's, regardless of TOB banters.

I think we may be using different definitions of "on par" here: I'm talking about quantity (which is objective), not quality (which is subjective, your opinion of which you've made abundantly clear). In terms of quest length, number of banters and so on, the new NPCs are pretty consistent with the old ones (bearing in mind that some characters, like Viconia and Minsc, don't even have personal quests).

Schneidend

trinit said:

@shawne factually, new NPC's content is not on par with old NPC's, regardless of TOB banters.

No, no, I don't think there's anything "factual" about that statement, actually.

Sylph

It doesn't seem likely, but if it did happen I'd be happy. If it doesn't I wont exactly lose sleep over it. I'm fairly satisfied with how things are now

trinit

@shawne like you said, i made my opinion on quality clear, but i'm talking precisely about quantity here (and in part the two are related IMO). romantic talk and interjection are NOT on the same level as old npc's. i'll take your word on TOB banters.

@Schneidend feel free to think what you like, but simple counting and playing speaks more than elaborate explanations, that i already made on more than a few ocassions.

shawne

@trinit: To use the one example I know of specifically, Hexxat has at least 25 romance dialogues to Aerie's and Anomen's 20. So there's that.

Eudaemonium

Dorn has like, 13, though, which is probably what trinit is talking about.

shawne

Eudaemonium said:

Dorn has like, 13, though, which is probably what trinit is talking about.

Fair enough, though that's still a critique specific to one character rather than all the new NPCs (and I'd argue that as a disadvantage to the character, it's balanced out by the variability in his quest...)

Eudaemonium

I know Dorn has the least amount of lovetalks of the new NPCs, and Neera has the most. Someone quoted something like 71 for Viconia, though, which seems kind enormous and seems rather out of balance with even the other vanilla romantic interests.

My main complaint is that, while they have voiced lines, they have unvoiced lines where other characters have voiced lines. Like in Hell, for example. It can be quite jarring.

shawne

There's no way she has 71, not unless her True Neutral and Neutral Evil variants are covered separately, and even then it's a bit of a stretch.

Eudaemonium

shawne said:

There's no way she has 71, not unless her True Neutral and Neutral Evil variants are covered separately, and even then it's a bit of a stretch.

I think maybe its the variable number, which was conflated with 'number of love talks'. It'd make sense if the Neutral and Evil ones were coded separately, though, as well as maybe other changes that might affect the substance of the talks.

Mechalibur

Eudaemonium said:

Dorn has like, 13, though, which is probably what trinit is talking about.

According to EEKeeper I'm at 25 love talks for Dorn (my save is at the end of SoA... not sure if he has more in ToB).

Eudaemonium

hmmmm. I think that's the variable, which is probably slightly different. I was told by his romance writer that he had about 13. My guess is that there are multiple variables depending on the outcome of certain events.

AnotherLife

I would like the NPCs to remember battles they/we took part in and whether they died there or not and comment on that. Whether they were the ones to deliver the killing blow etc (the game already tracks the most powerful creature killed)

So for example, Neera when removed from the party could say, "Are you sure ? Maybe you want me around so I can kill the next shadow dragon that gets in our way, too ? Just saying ..."

Or if an NPC wears items of combined gold value > 50000 and walks through the Docks/Slums he could comment on that and say "I get some funny looks from people, CHARNAME, maybe it's all this equipment you've given me. Got to say, feels great !"

Mechalibur

Eudaemonium said:

hmmmm. I think that's the variable, which is probably slightly different. I was told by his romance writer that he had about 13. My guess is that there are multiple variables depending on the outcome of certain events.

Or maybe by gender? Or maybe it was 13 before going to Spellhold or something.

Hm, it felt like more than 13 to me, but I'm not going to pretend my memory is any good :P It was certainly less than Viconia has, but 13 still seems a bit low, especially since I haven't even finished the game yet.

Eudaemonium

13 in SoA. he gets about 2-3 more in ToB.

I should note that he also gets interjections and his quest dialogues, as well as some banters with various characters, which probably makes it seem like he has more specifically-romance talks than he does.

Jalily

Mechalibur said:

According to EEKeeper I'm at 25 love talks for Dorn (my save is at the end of SoA... not sure if he has more in ToB).

The variable usually goes up twice per lovetalk.

elminster

trinit said:

@shawne well, we disagree here. excluding personal quests, the new npc's actually have considerably less to say then the rest of the crew. TOB and watcher keep was mostly silent, beyond few romance talks.

i agree it would be wrong for them to have too much content (like saerileth, yes) but as it stands i think they are far from reaching that point.

Depends upon who you are comparing them to. They don't have nearly as much dialogue with other party members as say Jaheira or Viconia. But I think they are comparable from a quantity standpoint with many of the older NPC's.

trinit

@elminster of course it depends. since they have relationship track, it is only fair we compare them to old romantic interests.
AFAIK dorn has 13 SOA 3 TOB talks (weird i seem to miss one),
neera has 15 SOA 2 TOB talks
rasaad has 14 SOA 4 TOB talks

old npc's are in 20-34 talks range in SOA and something like 7 talks in TOB, not mentioning other plot devices missing (post sex talks, bodhi abduction, post wraith talk, missing sound at crucial points and beginning of lovetalks, interjections in TOB etc.)

that is significant decrease, not to mention bg2 is a looooong game and silence quickly becomes deafening.

jackjack

It's not that I dislike the new NPCs, I just would love some new content that doesn't necessarily tie into them.

Messi

jackjack said:

It's not that I dislike the new NPCs, I just would love some new content that doesn't necessarily tie into them.

I really doubt that is going to happen. It seems very clear that way Overhaul has decided to make all the new content optional is be tying it to the new NPCs. It was the same in BGEE.

I do wonder though where the 350,000 words they advertised being added to BG2EE went?