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Why JRPG fans hate Western RPGs?

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  • spacejawsspacejaws Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 337
    Tanthalas said:



    Dragon Quest was inspired by DnD and Final Fantasy was inspired by Dragon Quest.

    I've never played the original Dragon Quest, but in Final Fantasy you can clearly see how it drew inspiration from DnD in its monsters and how the spell system functioned.

    Well yea it's pretty obvious the strong western influence in early jrpg's and even current ones. But they quickly developed into games with strong linear narratives in a fantasy setting rather than the customizable approach of wrpg's. Once you start hitting xenogears, pokemon(great rpg with wonderful progession mechanics for those who don't know :P) lost oddysey it's hard to see that similarity to dnd. They feel more like eastern folktales with western elements which is essentially what alot of anime and even early animes have been inspired by dnd like berserk and [email protected]!


    My case is that they are not totally different, just that they have differences and that i enjoy in each respectively. As Final Fantasy has something in common with DnD I'd say that Mass Effect has something in common with eastern animation/sci-fi themes. The genres have an effect on each other, and both are getting worse as the years go on imo.
    What I find elitist is the insinuation that DnD is the only form of RPG and anything that does not appear to aide by it's conventions cannot be an RPG to the most hardcore.

  • AliteriAliteri Member Posts: 308
    edited August 2012

    We have mechanics AND a novel's worth of dialogue

    That's silly. If you consider how many more words are needed to fully translate japanese that's actually pretty low. Without entering the argument about how many JRPGs these days have plots that can make your head hurt (as if the most popular Westerners have it any better), plot is exactly what the JRPG stands for.

    The difference between the JRPG genre and the Western RPG genre (from the perspective of a supposed fan of the latter - meaning the way I see it) is that the former is focused on storytelling in spite of what little freedom it is willing to give the player; the westerner is focused on roleplaying, which essentially spells a more customizable experience.

    The interactivity of the JRPG genre has been limited to combat, essentially making it either a 'subgenre' of Strategy or Action. Or, perhaps, a notable aesthetic amongst the story heavies of either genres. Though there were notable exceptions in the past, as there are in recent history, the focus of japanese storytelling in this genre has never been in conditioning the player's own experience.

    Chrono Trigger, at the very end, allows for a variable experience and the more recent Personas seem to have allowed for more options in the game.

    Ideally, the interactivity of the Western RPG genre is less limited, ranges through every spectrum of gameplay - providing the player with options for self-definition (characterization through choices, statistical and otherwise) with, ideally, the personalization of the player's experience (consequences).

    There are variations on how much freedom you want to give to the player. If you want to talk the last decade, BioWare was always more heavy handed (and, recently, they are walking towards a quasi-JRPG level of railroading) when compared to the likes of Troika, Obsidian and Bethesda. But what isn't Baldur's Gate 1, the TES series, Obsidian's career when I was looking and Troika's Arcanum anything other than a experience on player freedom and agency?

    Why do we hate each other? Well, words have meaning and its natural for fan(atic)s to try and usurp their meaning. 'What is a RPG?' is a death-threat generator of a question.

    spacejawsShapiroKeatsDarkMage
  • JolanthusJolanthus Member Posts: 292
    I've played about half a dozen JRPGs and for me they all blend into one another. I can't remember a single character I've used or run across. It doesn't help that graphically they all look similar to me also.

  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Talvrae said:


    I call thouse Hack & Slash it's the ebst term to discribe them, funnny Diablo was first described as that then sommeone put the RPG label on it and it had stick to it

    Hack & Slash is just a sub-genre of RPGs, and companies don't label games by sub-genre. It's either an RPG, a Fighting Game, Action, Sports, or whatever.

    BelgarathMTH
  • Avenger_teambgAvenger_teambg Member, Developer Posts: 5,862
    I like diablo, but it isn't rpg, it is for the lack of a better name, a h&s game. BG IS the rpg. Even games like Skyrim, with heavy roleplaying elements are not real rpgs, but a h&s rpg hybrid. Again, i like all 3 genres, i just don't like when non-rpgs are called rpg.

    DiscoCatButtercheese
  • AviiAvii Member Posts: 34
    I think what it comes down to is that people feel this need to raise a banner in honour of their systems, genres, franchises, etc and they forget that all games are freaking awesome. Now personally I love all styles of rpg from jrpg to hack and slash. Yet the key difference is...

    JRPG: You tend to be an outsider looking into the story. You are playing a character and seeing their story.

    WRPG: You make your own character usually and you play through the story and you make the choices that will change the story.

    So do you like to be the storyteller or the listener?

    Wigglessemiticgod
  • AurenRavidelAurenRavidel Member Posts: 139
    edited September 2012
    I've learned to dislike JRPGs because it seems that they just keep serving up the same main course over and over again. While Final Fantasy is probably the most obvious series guilty of this, it applies to other intellectual properties as well. They seem too formulaic to me, although there are some notable exceptions to this (Persona is pretty creative).

    I agree with @Avii in that JRGPs have a tendency to make you play someone else, while WRPGs allow you to create a version of yourself. I find the latter far more immersive.

    In the cases where you do not create your own character (Witcher), I still find the writing more compelling. Maybe it's because I just hate anime and JRGPs just seem like interactive anime?

  • RedcoatRedcoat Member Posts: 31
    Hmm, usually it's the other way around. Usually JRPGs get slammed as being "not RPGs" because people don't seem to realise that game genres are defined by gameplay mechanics, not narrative elements. Super Mario Bros. isn't a platformer because it involves rescuing a princess, Doom isn't a shooter because its main character is a space marine, and RPG isn't an RPG because "I'm picking dialogue and making choices!" because by that argument Wing Commander III is an RPG.

    Both JRPGs and WRPGs feature the basic RPG game mechanic of character-based skill. Specifically, your character isn't just an avatar for your skills and abilities, but is defined as a completely separate entity with its own skills, attributes, and other qualities which govern his success or failure in any given situation. The only major difference is that JRPGs only let you play as one specific character. I won't argue that JRPGs tend to be extremely linear and one-dimensional, but they're still RPGs based on their gameplay.

    FinneousPJ
  • KlonoaKlonoa Member Posts: 93
    The world would be a lesser place without either kind of game. I still have a love for Breath of Fire 3 even though the amount of random battles make me want to take a nap while playing.

  • Stargazer5781Stargazer5781 Member Posts: 182
    I remember thinking the thing I loved most about Final Fantasy 1 was how similar it was to Dungeons and Dragons. Both styles originate from the same place. They've taken different paths and are charming in different ways. Radicals miss out by not exploring. If someone's playing WoW and refuses to try Final Fantasy IV, I think they're being pretty silly. And if a Final Fantasy fanatic refuses to play Baldur's Gate, I think they're insane.

  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    Avii said:

    I think what it comes down to is that people feel this need to raise a banner in honour of their systems, genres, franchises, etc and they forget that all games are freaking awesome. Now personally I love all styles of rpg from jrpg to hack and slash. Yet the key difference is...

    JRPG: You tend to be an outsider looking into the story. You are playing a character and seeing their story.

    WRPG: You make your own character usually and you play through the story and you make the choices that will change the story.

    So do you like to be the storyteller or the listener?

    I typically prefer to be the listener. But that's because I prefer to trust the game to tell a compelling story. I like games where the player's choices are few and far between, but just as important. Let the developers tell me the story they want to tell. If it's a compelling story, it will be a compelling game.

    That's not to say I like games-on-rails. I like being able to explore. Side quests are my bread and butter. What I don't like as much is when the side quests become the game. The main story of a game is its backbone, and I think some games would be better served with a stronger backbone.

    (This is why I don't like MMOs, incidentally. If the world is too "open", I lose interest because there's nothing in the world that's driving me forward.)

    alnair
  • MrKrisSatanMrKrisSatan Member Posts: 75
    Some people want to forge a story with choices unique to them, others want to be told a story.

    Fake_Sketchsemiticgod
  • HoebaggerHoebagger Member Posts: 46
    There is A LOT to this topic actually. Extra credits did a great video (two parter actually) that deals with the differences between the two. I highly recommend giving it a watch: http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/western-japanese-rpgs-part-1

  • HoebaggerHoebagger Member Posts: 46
    Ah it would seem that @Avii has indeed seen the video as well :D

    Avii
  • RokeRoke Member Posts: 7
    Redcoat said:

    Hmm, usually it's the other way around. Usually JRPGs get slammed as being "not RPGs" because people don't seem to realise that game genres are defined by gameplay mechanics, not narrative elements. Super Mario Bros. isn't a platformer because it involves rescuing a princess, Doom isn't a shooter because its main character is a space marine, and RPG isn't an RPG because "I'm picking dialogue and making choices!" because by that argument Wing Commander III is an RPG.

    Interactive dialogs is part of an RPGs mechanics and if it didn't let the player be part of the narrative and change it, then it wouldn't be a RPG in my own opinion. Example, mass effect without the interactive dialogs (which you can turn off for some freaking reason) would just be a shooter with side quests and Balder's gate would be a turned based hack and slash.

    This is where the argument lies for me at least, JRPG don't have any form of player control when it comes to the story and with out it theres no roll playing.
    Redcoat said:

    Both JRPGs and WRPGs feature the basic RPG game mechanic of character-based skill. Specifically, your character isn't just an avatar for your skills and abilities, but is defined as a completely separate entity with its own skills, attributes, and other qualities which govern his success or failure in any given situation. The only major difference is that JRPGs only let you play as one specific character. I won't argue that JRPGs tend to be extremely linear and one-dimensional, but they're still RPGs based on their gameplay.

    This really gets my nicker in a twist, the game play of RPGs can be vastly different from one another. Dragon age is a lot different in game play than FF 13 for a simple example. And sure most RPGs have a leveling system with points per level and turn base combat but that does not make ever game with a leveling system or turn based combat an RPG, it's just the easiest way to define your character progress and increase in power and what happens during combat. A lot of games have some form of leveling system, dead rising, WOW, COD etc and these aren't RPGs in the slightest.

    _Q_
  • AnOnionAnOnion Member Posts: 30
    Roke said:


    This really gets my nicker in a twist, the game play of RPGs can be vastly different from one another. Dragon age is a lot different in game play than FF 13 for a simple example. And sure most RPGs have a leveling system with points per level and turn base combat but that does not make ever game with a leveling system or turn based combat an RPG, it's just the easiest way to define your character progress and increase in power and what happens during combat. A lot of games have some form of leveling system, dead rising, WOW, COD etc and these aren't RPGs in the slightest.

    Um, what? WoW isn't an RPG? Tell that to the thousands upon thousands of dedicated RPers over there. Saying that a full-fledged MMORPG isn't an RPG is like saying that Dr. Pepper isn't a real soda because it's not a cola. Different strokes for different folks.

    Now, PVP-only stuff with no story interaction like League of Legends? Yeah, those aren't RPGs. They're combat/strategy sims.

    LordsDarkKnight185
  • RokeRoke Member Posts: 7
    @AnOnion, WOW as its is not an rpg, it has no real rpg opportunity in it's core mechanics and what your describing is the players rping in the chat window between one another. It's like saying that minecrafts mods are part of the game when you first download it from the official site. There would be no RPing in WOW if it weren't for the players, maybe they changed it after burning crusade, i can't say sens i stopped playing there.

    Teflon
  • GreenAresGreenAres Member Posts: 1
    I play skyrim modded to hell to make it look like a jrpg what do you think of that uh uh uh?

  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,425
    GreenAres said:

    I play skyrim modded to hell to make it look like a jrpg what do you think of that uh uh uh?

    I smell a troll. Quick! Bring the acid arrows and flame arrows scrolls.

    elminsterTeflon
  • EntropyXIIEntropyXII Member Posts: 656
    edited September 2013
    I like both, but will admit that as I got older I turned more to the western RPG format of games.

    I grew up on games such as Wild Arms, Chronotrigger, Final Fantasy Tactics and Final Fantasy VII. I loves the characters, I loved the stories and I loved the emotions these games put me through.

    Two games in particular turned the tide for me in the types of games I now enjoy: Baldur's Gate and Final fantasy X2. The Final Fantasy games took a serious downturn at that point - in my opinion. Never played them since.

    To this day, I struggle to get into any game in which I cannot create my own character and take varying game changing decisions as the game goes on.

    I used to be a HUGE Resident Evil fan (another game series which took a wrong turn somewhere). I bought Resident Evil 6 off of Xbox live a couple of months ago. I played 5 minutes of it, and just couldn't go further. I can't explain it, but to enjoy games these days I really need to feel involved with my character. An amazing story is just not good enough for me any more.

    I will forever love those earlier JRPG games however. They hold a special place in my memories. Somewhere in between old survival horror games and Age of Empires.

  • WigglesWiggles Member Posts: 571
    I couldn't get into any of the JRPG's. I could give reasons, but I don't feel like raining on anyones parade so to say. My fiancee however loves them to pieces. She squealed when I bought her the remake of Kingdom Hearts 1 and told her that they're remaking FF10 and 10-2.

    But on that note, I got my fiancee into D&D 3.5 about six months ago (halfling druid and half-elf ranger) and she LOVES it. She tells me that she will not even attempt BG since it involves using a computer.

  • XzarXzar Member Posts: 215
    I've never ever played JRPG. This is because of two reasons - I really disliked anime style when I was a kid, and because i'm PC-only gamer since 2001, and JRPGs usually released on colsoles. While before 2001 I had a few consoles(PS1, Genesis and various chinese NES clones) I didnt have enough insight into this subgenre. Friend proposed me some PS1 Final Fantasy once, but it looked to ugly to me, so I refused. While mature, I installed Last Remnant, since its of few JRPGs available for PC in recent years, and uninstalled it after a hour - game seemed too childish to me.

    Teflon
  • KaltzorKaltzor Member Posts: 1,050
    Xzar said:

    I've never ever played JRPG. This is because of two reasons - I really disliked anime style when I was a kid, and because i'm PC-only gamer since 2001, and JRPGs usually released on colsoles. While before 2001 I had a few consoles(PS1, Genesis and various chinese NES clones) I didnt have enough insight into this subgenre. Friend proposed me some PS1 Final Fantasy once, but it looked to ugly to me, so I refused. While mature, I installed Last Remnant, since its of few JRPGs available for PC in recent years, and uninstalled it after a hour - game seemed too childish to me.

    Ya know, for me Graphics don't really affect how good the game is, unless they are extraordinarily bad, see ff7 for example (as I prepare my flameproof gear)... I don't really consider the "anime look" childish, I find it actually helpful in making all the awesome stuff look more believable since they don't need to try make all the stuff they do look realistic, they can just concentrate on making it look great.


    But at any rate, I don't really mind either of the 2 subgenres, though in my opinion JRPGs usually do in my opinion have a better story than the WRPG ones...

    And everyone always seems to love pointing to the Elder Scrolls series when it comes to WRPGs... I don't really like the Elder Scrolls games, I find the main story usually not all that good and the side quests are more interesting and better done, but they're not really supposed to be the main focus of the game.

  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,680
    edited September 2013
    I'm a huge fan of JRPGs and i'm a huge fan also of WRPGs, i also like Diablo II and other games, does this make me an anomaly?

    By the way what's the policy of this forum reghard emulators for games and consoles that aren't present in the market anymore? Like SNES, Mega Driver and therefore on, so i can evaluate until which point i can aboard the subject.

    Teflon
  • typo_tillytypo_tilly Member Posts: 5,702
    I like both custom-character and fixed-character games. n.n

    Sometimes it's nice to discover the Nameless One's story or unfold the story in -pick which Final Fantasy game you don't hate-.

    Sometimes it's nice to have a lot of choice ala Baldur's Gate or Fallout. Make your character then make your own truth. :)


    Usually I separate RPGs into
    Action RPGs: If you're good at action and moving, you can avoid all enemy attacks.
    Zelda, Diablo, Ys

    Real-time RPGs: If you're good at action and moving, you can minimize enemy attacks.
    Tales of ---- series (eg. Tales of Symphonia), Secret of Mana

    Turn-based RPGs*: If you're good at action and moving, you might be able to marginally minimize enemy attacks. (eg. abuse in Chrono Trigger)
    (*or pause-based or "active time battle")
    Baldur's Gate, Final Fantasy


    All in all, "RPG" is a vague phrase to describe a videogame.
    Aside from puzzle games, what game doesn't have you playing a role? -_-

    kamuizin
  • Mrpenfold666Mrpenfold666 Member Posts: 427
    to me an RPG needs to have some form of roleplaying in it, final fantasy doesn't count, diablo doesn't count. they are great games but ive always said diablo is a hack n slash. but they are called RPGs becuase they have stats and EXP whick kind of depresses me as then CoD would be an RPG becuase online you get exp and level up your guns and.....no...just no.

    in a JRPG like say....final fantasy X you dont really have any choices to make, you get told a story you dont make one. in baldurs gate you make your own story and characters react to what you do along the way so *shrug* each to their own, ill play JRPGs i like alot of them but are they RPG's? in my opinion they arent.

  • TeflonTeflon Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 517
    Well suprisingly even jrpg pnp dnd rulebook it is called swordworld. I do not know it is cheap plagiariasm of dnd or not.
    http://swordworld.wikia.com/wiki/Sword_World_Wiki
    But I do not think EVERY those who like jrpg hate other rpg. I think this topic questions on wrong assumptions. Since I do like jpg but does not hate or dislike other one.
    It is hard to know one's intention of question.

  • KaltzorKaltzor Member Posts: 1,050

    to me an RPG needs to have some form of roleplaying in it, final fantasy doesn't count, diablo doesn't count. they are great games but ive always said diablo is a hack n slash. but they are called RPGs becuase they have stats and EXP whick kind of depresses me as then CoD would be an RPG becuase online you get exp and level up your guns and.....no...just no.

    You know, you could have pretty much endless arguments about "What is an RPG"... Since every game, "RPG" or not has you play some kind of Role... Be it a character or just something that is there in the story... RPG is the single most undefined genre out there.

    typo_tillykamuizin
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 2,843
    Actors on TV shows and movies are playing RPGs...only they get paid for it and they are always stuck in pre-written cutscenes.

    FinnTheHuman
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