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Elite Fire Giants Are Cheaters *spoilers*

I just spent 10 minutes banging my head against a group of fire giants in Yaga-Shura's lair...the ones in the first area, up the staircase and second door on the right. There are two elite fire giants (plus 3 regular ones), and I never saw either of them miss my Charname. She was sitting at -13 AC (17 Dex, Armor of the Hart +3, Helm of Balduran, Dragon Scale Shield +2, Ring of Gaxx, Ring of Earth Control, Cloak of the Sewers and wielding the Flail of Ages +3). I even set the game to show To Hit Rolls, and then auto-pause after every round. Never once did they miss; every single roll was over 10 base (plus their 3 adjustment for whatever). I suppose it's feasible that I got screwed by random numbers, but we're talking about dozens of rounds where both elite giants had every single roll in the top half of the possibility range.

So my question is, what kind of cheating is built into these guys? And what's the point? Seriously, with them drinking potions of speed, five fire giants are harder than any dragon in the game.

Note: I am not complaining that it's unbeatable, etc. I could very well have loaded my mages up with chain contingencies full of Abi's and the usual cheese. My question is why elite fire giants need to hit every single time they swing.
JuliusBorisov
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Comments

  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    Yep, that's how it is in TOB. Everyone hits, every time.

    -13 is pretty high though. It might be enough to deflect some of the mooks but fire giant elites are, well, elites. The best way is not to rely on AC past this and focus on damage resistance and blocking their hits.

    What kind of character are you using? If you're a mage you have PfMW and stoneskin. If you're a fighter you can use Defender of Easthaven + Hardiness. Cleric, DoE + armor of faith.
    jackjackCrevsDaakQuartz
  • Not everything in ToB hits with this kind of frequency. I'd been doing just fine with a -8 AC until then; the toon is actually set up to dual wield, and I had to dig in my bags to find any shield at all.

    My main is a ranger; I was using Flail of Ages to slow them down (since they start off hasted) rather than the Defender of Easthaven. The normal tactics for slowing them down don't really work, because there are more than one and they're magic resistant. So trying to lower resistance/greater malison/slow only works if you hit each of them with lower resistance; by then you're into round three and your tank is dead or nearly dead. I was also using Hardiness, as well as Armour of Faith.

    According to NearInfinity, these things have a THAC0 of 2 and Str 23 (+5 to hit), which would put them at an effective THAC0 of -3. To hit a -13 AC, they would need to roll at least a 10. Strange how they never actually rolled lower than that, isn't it? I mean, not a single critical miss (natural 1) in 10 minutes of play.

    Again, I can think of any number of ways to deal with this, it just seems silly that killing this group efficiently requires as much preparation as a boss fight.
  • GamingFreakGamingFreak Member Posts: 639
    I remember just mashing Time Stop + Dragon Breath and Abi-Dhalzim's Horrid Wilting, iirc. Yaga-shura's lair is easy for the most part.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited December 2013
    Nevermind. Arguing on the internet, etc.
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    As you can see AC doesn't do much for you, so I would ditch the shield and offhand the DoE. Between that and hardiness and armor of faith don't think you should have much trouble.

    They also use whirlwind. I doubt the slowing does that much for you because it'll set their attacks to 10 anyways (or is it 5 under slow? it'll hurt either way). If your character isn't super tanky it's worth backing off when you see them cast it because it only lasts a round.

    The best way IMO is just to kill them before they kill you while continually chugging potions. When I went through that area Mazzy took them out pretty well - though she doesn't have as much damage reduction as your character she just killed them faster than they killed her.

    If those are their stats then I guess they should be missing occasionally, but I can't say I ever saw them miss either.
  • MadhaxMadhax Member Posts: 1,416
    I had Viconia and my PC Cleric/Mage one-two punch these guys with Doom + Finger of Death every time I saw an elite. Worked quite well, didn't even have to use top-level spells.

    Fire Giants are notorious for being extremely accurate and damaging, but they aren't exactly mashing defensive spells against you. Use some of those powerful offensive spells your mages have for once.
  • GamingFreakGamingFreak Member Posts: 639
    Cyteen said:

    Nevermind. Arguing on the internet, etc.

    You're taking this *WAAAY* too seriously, man. Chill. In a way by us giving you our methods of taking them down you're actually getting a means to do handle this yourself.
  • DirkyDuDirkyDu Member Posts: 5
    It'd be interesting to see if there actually was some sort of cheat coded into that particular unit. Try using EEkeeper to adjust your AC to -20 and see if they still hit you every time. If not, NearInfinity may be inaccurate in it's claim of THAC0:2, or you might just be that unlucky ;)
  • Cyteen said:

    Nevermind. Arguing on the internet, etc.

    You're taking this *WAAAY* too seriously, man. Chill. In a way by us giving you our methods of taking them down you're actually getting a means to do handle this yourself.
    I have any number of ways of handling them myself. I just have a dislike for using a bunch of spells and prep for what amounts to a pack of trash mobs. :)
  • GamingFreakGamingFreak Member Posts: 639
    ...Then why are they cheaters?
  • MaylanderMaylander Member Posts: 74
    Certain enemies in TOB have so insane THAC0 values armor class is effectively rendered useless. They will almost always hit, as they have an effective THAC0 of -10. You should still be able to dodge the occasional hit though, so no dodging at all seems a bit odd. Anyway, those elites are among the worst offenders, but they're not the only ones. Abazigal, Elite Umber Hulks and so on all have crazy THAC0 values. Stoneskin and Mirror Image is the safest way to tank such creatures.
  • XukuthXukuth Member Posts: 78
    Cyteen said:

    Cyteen said:

    Nevermind. Arguing on the internet, etc.

    You're taking this *WAAAY* too seriously, man. Chill. In a way by us giving you our methods of taking them down you're actually getting a means to do handle this yourself.
    I have any number of ways of handling them myself. I just have a dislike for using a bunch of spells and prep for what amounts to a pack of trash mobs. :)
    The fact that they require a bunch of spells and prep means that they aren't what amounts to trash mobs. Yes, Elite Fire Giants are quite tough. But they're intended to be.
    jackjackelminsterbooinyoureyes
  • bbearbbear Member Posts: 1,180
    Obviously you forgot about chunking them. Backstab works great here.
    elminsterCrevsDaakbooinyoureyes
  • Ok, new day has dawned and I have my perspective back. Thanks for all of the suggestions and comments. The next time I see an Elite Fire Giant, I'm going to kick its ass...like a boss.

    @GamingFreak You're right, I do have a mild tendency to go overboard when frustrated.

    <3 you all.
    nanoPurudayabooinyoureyes
  • stargazerbstargazerb Member Posts: 57
    I found the elite fire giants surprisingly difficult. That first very large group I handled by killing one or two then leaving, regrouping, and coming back. It took a while.
  • NoonNoon Member Posts: 202
    Elite fire giants have an effective thaco of -9 with 295 hp. More if they use their berserk ability (but i don't remember they do). So yes they have quite a punch without cheating.
    booinyoureyes
  • rathe101rathe101 Member Posts: 61
    Noon said:

    Elite fire giants have an effective thaco of -9 with 295 hp. More if they use their berserk ability (but i don't remember they do). So yes they have quite a punch without cheating.

    Is that with SCS? or is that normal?
  • bbearbbear Member Posts: 1,180
    rathe101 said:

    Noon said:

    Elite fire giants have an effective thaco of -9 with 295 hp. More if they use their berserk ability (but i don't remember they do). So yes they have quite a punch without cheating.

    Is that with SCS? or is that normal?
    they use war hammer+2 and may have hammer pips
    booinyoureyes
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    In my game the elites use +2 battle axes at a grand mastery level
  • MaylanderMaylander Member Posts: 74
    I seem to recall them having an effective THAC0 of -10 in old TOB even without mods, so yes, they're going to be hard to dodge. Abazigal has around -12 to -14 or some such thing and is even more difficulty to dodge, but he's about the only one.
  • HandofTyrHandofTyr Member Posts: 106
    Never really thought about that (STR and proficiencies on monsters). It might explain why some monsters are spot on with combat statistics compared to 2e monster manuals and others seem to be noticeably different, as stats- meaning the six attributes- and proficiencies don't exist for monsters in print.
    booinyoureyes
  • LathraelLathrael Member Posts: 69
    As you get into higher levels, roles of classes shifts marginally. For an example, mages will do the tanking with spells like stoneskin, spell deflection, mirror image, mantle, improved mantle. Your main damage source will be fighters, with access to 25-23 str, improved haste and smite, they will wipe the floor with everything. Just make sure your casters remove any defensive spells on opposing mages.
    booinyoureyesQuartz
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited December 2013
    DavidW said:

    The vanilla Elite Fire Giant (without SCS et al) has a base THAC0 of 2, has an undroppable +3 weapon (don't believe the text that calls it +2, the text on undroppable weapons doesn't need to be accurate and usually isn't), has three pips in Axes (another +3) and has strength 23 (another +5). I make that THAC0 of -9, so they're going to hit your AC -13 character 17 times out of 20.

    There is, so far as I know, no way within the game engine to label a creature as not rolling critical misses (certainly no way that won't show up in an editor).

    Hmm. Now I just have to figure out how to get to -28 AC. Even with Rasaad wearing the BMU, I've only seen -24... :)
    Post edited by [Deleted User] on
  • HandofTyrHandofTyr Member Posts: 106
    edited December 2013
    The game caps AC at -24. I believe this is actually a rule from PnP, but I'm really not sure (as this is the type of rule you would only encounter in a very particular type of campaign).

    That's part of why AC is maligned late game- it's fairly hard to hit -24 and even when you do a number of enemies still have decent chances to hit. 50% is still better than 95% though.
  • Zzidolfas86Zzidolfas86 Member Posts: 77
    Solution to every mob that has no death spell is Conjure Animals. A level 6 druid spell. Those bears are super strong, and can tank almost anything that has no death spells (that insta-kills summons).

    Honestly never found a better way to deal with trash mobs :p

    The general rule of thumb in tob combat, as stupidly designed as it is, is to kill stuff before it kills you.
    Playing the endurance game is not a good way to win :(

    Epic "tank" fighters being the worst tanks makes so much sence am I right? :p
  • ryuken87ryuken87 Member Posts: 563
    edited December 2013
    @HandofTyr
    It's been a while but I think it actually works like this:
    -20 cap + dex bonus + single weapon style bonus + specific weapon type bonus (e.g. vs slashing). With that you should be able to get -26 at least. Gonna test it later.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    Just forget about AC in ToB and focus on other defensive options.
    EudaemoniumjackjackQuartz
  • TvrtkoSvrdlarTvrtkoSvrdlar Member Posts: 353
    Dwarven Defender + DoE & Shield + Full Plate & Packing Steel (Mod) = one hardy little bastard! :P

    That mod alone is reason enough to play a tanky character. Give your tank the heaviest plate armor available, and deck him out with +HP items (the IWD Wolf Talisman comes to mind). Between Hardness, Defensive Stance, potions, party buffs, and the armor's built-in damage resistance, I find that my tank is literally the last person standing after shit has hit the fan. Squishy DPS machines like Kensai and Assassins are the ones who usually get creamed.

    One could argue that DR-increasing armor is imbalanced, but I think it's just realistic (especially since enemies wear the same types of armor as your party), and since every mage and his mother have survivability flying out the wazoo. Giving armor built-in DR just levels the field a bit. Although, if you really wanted to cheese it and breeze through late-game, Fighter/Mages are so overpoweringly survivable that it's not even funny.

    On a semi-related note, is there any way to obtain 'dodge chance' in BG2EE? Like, having N% to actually dodge an attack? I think the Blur spell in IWD2 functions like that, but the BG2 one just adds AC (if I'm not mistaken). I've always wondered if it'd be possible to give rogues something like +20% innate dodge rating. It's kind of unfair that fighters (in the unmodded game) get to have much lower AC than rogues while running around with much more robust HP pools as well.

    Armor Class should've given damage resistance (a la the FP&PS mod), while *increasing* the chance to get hit.

    Just my $0.02 :/
  • DrayenDrayen Member Posts: 127
    I find AC and shields to be pretty handy personally. My last playthrough, i had sarevok and korgan. Sarevok using a 2h and Korgan using 1h + shield (Mostly axe of unyielding, some crom faeyr)

    In the overall gameplay, korgan had a lot more staying power than sarevok, sarevok hp would just go low, and i had to make him back up while korgan keeps swinging... in the end, in the information tab, korgan had a lot more killing blows than sarevok, even with ravager with it's vorpal hits


    Tvrtko, as far as dodge chances goes... 1AC is pretty much 5% chance to be missed, so you could theorically just use EEKeeper to edit your thief and give him 4 more AC if you wanted to. Then again, if your AC is 2 and the enemy has a Thac0 of 2, you'll still be hit 100% of the time even if you went from 6 to 2... Thieves are just bad in BG outside of lockpicking, disarming traps, and traps + backstabs, basically only good outside of fights and at the beginning of a fight.
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