I figure my charname doesn't have player-vision with all the helpful red circles telling you who's trying to kill you, so as far as he's concerned it's just a bunch of rough-looking dudes with bows who haven't seen him yet. But I guess it's okay because if I make a mistake I'll just pay for the resurrection. Now that I think about it that's probably how paladins operate as well. Just try to keep them in one piece while killing them...
She doesn't work in a good party. To be honest, even the ones she doesn't fight with are just... meh. Imoen's writing especially makes me angry; she's supposed to just be silly, not actually an imbecile. It might be forgivable, but the conflict with Aerie makes it impossible for any character to be ignorant of what Hex gets up to while in the group. Imoen, Minsc, Nalia, Jaheira and even Cernd just wouldn't stand for it.
Thats the thing, if you don't have Aerie, no one else ever makes a big deal about it and she doesn't rub it in their faces either... Well I haven't tried Mazzy or Keldorn yet, but I'm planning to try Keldorn (but only for a little bit while Jaheira is gone). Aran Linvail was not happy though.
Which is why I feel the whole conflict with Aerie is a bit off; better if it had just been kept a secret what she got up to, or left to the imagination of the player. Not to mention it's a bit OOC for Aerie to suddenly decide to attack a party member, after so long as well. She definitely wouldn't do so if she wasn't sure what Hex was up to, and other characters are bright enough to figure it out too even if Aerie doesn't tell them, and she definitely would talk to Imoen, Minsc and Nalia about it.
I have absolutely zero idea what you are talking about. My good charnames never murder anyone. Hexxat does.
So, your good party has never chopped anybody into pieces whose crime was the deadly sin of having been hired to guard someplace?
Those guards knew the risks when they took on the job of evil henchmen/footsoldiers. Obviously violence and killing is just one of the realities of the world these characters inhabit. The difference between good and evil when it comes to killing is that good characters will only kill if it saves more lives, or to protect innocent people, friends etc.
Those guards knew the risks when they took on the job of evil henchmen/footsoldiers.
Yes, I'm sure all of them, without exception, signed up for the job of "evil henchmen" with full and complete disclosure as to all of the activities and moral code of their employers.
Those guards knew the risks when they took on the job of evil henchmen/footsoldiers.
Yes, I'm sure all of them, without exception, signed up for the job of "evil henchmen" with full and complete disclosure as to all of the activities and moral code of their employers.
I doubt these guards got into their roles by following the standard online application process and phone interview. They were probably recruited to be evil henchmen by their evil masters because of their prior evil deeds, or at least properly vetted/hazed as evil before being given weapons and allowed a place within the complex.
If you listen to their activation sounds when they go hostile, their morality doesn't exactly seem ambiguous ("So I kicked 'em in the head 'till he was dead, ha ha ha!")
There IS, of course, a way to determine this once and for all. Anybody's Charnames have a "know alignment" spell lying around?
I'm curious, do you guys fight through the army at the Oasis? They're definitely trying to kill you but I don't think they're evil, just doing their job, and my good parties usually go invisible and walk past. Same with Balthazar, he's a total dick to the citizens despite being Lawful Good and no one would blame you if you offed him, but I talk him over to my side anyways.
I dunno, I don't think Good characters should be so quick to slaughter their way through every encounter if they could easily solve it with fewer casualties. Like Gandalf says, "many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."
Or there's always the paladin approach of detect evil, smite evil. It gets a lot of flak but it's more due process than most good parties give out.
But whatever, it's just a fantasy game and it requires a certain suspension of disbelief so it's not like you have to treat computer people as you would real people. Still, I use more stealth with a good party because I think it's a more "good" approach. It's kinda funny that you can't make a lawful good thief or cleric/thief because despite the name they're a lot more pacifist than your average paladin.
The talk about supposedly "good" characters murdering their way through countless guards and other tertiary evil characters reminds me of a moment in Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance. Raiden (main character) has been chopping his way through mercenaries and the (extremely militarized) Denver Police Department when one of the bad guys gives him a "we're not so different" speech and asks him to consider all of the people that he's killed to reach them. Raiden responds pretty typically, defending himself by pointing out that they were adults, they had a choice, etc.
So during the next fight you can hear what the enemy cyborg mercenaries are thinking as you're fighting, and it's all stuff like "I don't want to die" and "They [their employers] just told me what I wanted to hear." The game makes it pretty clear that these guys are terrified of you but they have no choice but to fight because they're got nanomachines regulating their emotions and keeping them from running. This sets up a pretty neat Heroic BSoD as Raiden realizes "you know... slicing people in half and ripping out their spines to heal myself probably isn't something that a good person would do" and leads in to a really fun boss battle.
I thought it was a pretty neat variation on the "faceless mooks" that action heroes usually end up slaughtering by the hundreds and accrue no karma penalty for.
Of course this is also the game with quotes such as "Your memes... end here!" and "NANOMACHINES, SON!" so you can take that with a pretty huge grain of salt.
That does sound like a pretty cool encounter and I'm glad it's acknowledged occasionally (but "occasional" is fine, I don't want my games to be chock-full of moral dilemmas). I imagine this is something soldiers have to come to terms with on a regular basis, though I'm sure self-preservation and being shot at does wonders for clearing your mind, at least at the time.
That does sound like a pretty cool encounter and I'm glad it's acknowledged occasionally (but "occasional" is fine, I don't want my games to be chock-full of moral dilemmas). I imagine this is something soldiers have to come to terms with on a regular basis, though I'm sure self-preservation and being shot at does wonders for clearing your mind, at least at the time.
Indeed; the problem a military faces is having to train people to kill other human beings, but still be able to return afterwards and function normally in society. The US army actually funds research into this. In the past, you would get the war propaganda dehumanizing and demonizing the enemy, but that creates problems later when the war is over. Really, they just have to be reminded that they're doing it to defend their homes and protect the people they care about... whether that's actually true in every war is another matter we'll not get into. Police also might be put in situations where they're forced to kill to defend themselves.
The enemies in Baldur's Gate aren't controlled by nanomachines though. There's very few times when any of them surrender and stop trying to kill you and you can let them go (a couple guys in the Cloakwood mine, I think).
The enemies in Baldur's Gate aren't controlled by nanomachines though. There's very few times when any of them surrender and stop trying to kill you and you can let them go (a couple guys in the Cloakwood mine, I think).
Oh yeah, that's obviously limited to the Metal Gear universe and not really applicable here, or only applicable in very specific circumstances (Glacius in de'Arnise Hold comes to mind). I just thought it was an interesting subversion/inversion/whatever.
The enemies in Baldur's Gate aren't controlled by nanomachines though. There's very few times when any of them surrender and stop trying to kill you and you can let them go (a couple guys in the Cloakwood mine, I think).
They're not mind controlled but I wouldn't say they all deserve to be executed. I mean, if my charname is kind-hearted enough to save Viconia who is, by my reckoning, quite the evil bitch and guilty of more than most bandits, I don't see why he would have zero sympathy for lesser villains.
Sure, you can say that the gameplay limits you to strictly fatal solutions for most encounters, which is true, but you should try playing a thief sometime. You'd be surprised at how little killing you actually have to do. Like I said, I won't fault anyone for slaughtering their way through everything but I believe a "good" protagonist would try to minimize collateral damage. For my cleric/thief that means avoiding fights but righteously backstaffing anyone who really deserves it or when it can't be helped. It's actually much easier than fighting everyone, believe it or not.
No one answered the question I raised in my other post but I'm still curious about how you guys approach the Oasis/Balthazar encounters with a good character.
@booinyoureyes Man, I don't think I'd have the willpower to pass that one up. I guess that's why I gravitate towards neutral characters, being good (by my standards, at least) is too hard.
Sure, a good character should avoid bloodshed if possible, and spare the lives of those who surrender, which is what I try to do when I'm playing good. I've even tried using spells to put enemies to sleep or paralyze them temporarily, but as they get tougher that becomes less effective.
My character is a blade with a pip in short swords as well (I have Rogue Re-balancing installed so I get three pips that would normally go into dualwield available. My guy uses every weapon, lol)
I'm just gonna get Belm later on, and I use Celestial Fury in my main hand (holy crap that katana is good... I never found it before)
@booinyoureyes Do you get Use Any Item with that mod? You could have the Scarlet Ninja-to as well... I'm looking forward to some hot dual wielding action with my cleric when I get it.
I don't think I've ever used Celestial Fury either, I gotta give it a shot. I managed to not screw up getting the Flail of Ages this game, last time I got all the pieces but forgot you had to forge it inside the keep *facepalm*
My bard was actually using the flail of ages, but i found it very... unbard-like so I gave it to Minsc (used this amazing eeKeeper thing to move him from axes-->flails)
To be honest none of the new characters are worth the bother in BG2 except neera and that only if you want to romance her or if you like playing with a lot of mages in your group. I'd give the new group of fresh meat a C- at best and F- at worst.
I'm running a party with Keldorn, Korgan, Edwin, Hexxat, and Viconia and Keldorn does take serious offense with Hexxat. After I did Keldorn's quest, he threatened to kill her. I removed Hexxat from the party (I openly told her to bugger it when the conflict arose), finished up some running around quests, went back to Hexxat and recruited her again. Which seems to have caused a weird bug as Keldorn whines no longer, and I'm happily trouncing through the Underdark.
You ask why Keldorn. Well that is a rather complicated situation. I normally tend to play evil parties but I'm a big fan of Keldorn and Paladins in general. Hence, my obsession with recruiting Keldorn.
She is acceptable but not because she's evil, technically so is viconia though she is a rare bird, she's more grey hat than a black hat. The gripe on hex is she's a lousy thief in the daylight because of that cloak she wears, in the dark or in dungeon she an uber thief with those stats, only if you are switch hitter and your character romances her is she acceptable
Yeah, but 99% of the thieving you do happens out of the daylight, so the dex penalty from the cloak isn't a big deal. Plus, since she's a single-classed thief, she levels up very quickly and gets full skill points, so it's easy to pad out her scores a bit to compensate if it's necessary. I've been really enjoying having her around particularly for the ability to lay down a bunch of spike traps starting from late SoA on.
Comments
If you listen to their activation sounds when they go hostile, their morality doesn't exactly seem ambiguous ("So I kicked 'em in the head 'till he was dead, ha ha ha!")
There IS, of course, a way to determine this once and for all. Anybody's Charnames have a "know alignment" spell lying around?
I dunno, I don't think Good characters should be so quick to slaughter their way through every encounter if they could easily solve it with fewer casualties. Like Gandalf says, "many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."
Or there's always the paladin approach of detect evil, smite evil. It gets a lot of flak but it's more due process than most good parties give out.
But whatever, it's just a fantasy game and it requires a certain suspension of disbelief so it's not like you have to treat computer people as you would real people. Still, I use more stealth with a good party because I think it's a more "good" approach. It's kinda funny that you can't make a lawful good thief or cleric/thief because despite the name they're a lot more pacifist than your average paladin.
So during the next fight you can hear what the enemy cyborg mercenaries are thinking as you're fighting, and it's all stuff like "I don't want to die" and "They [their employers] just told me what I wanted to hear." The game makes it pretty clear that these guys are terrified of you but they have no choice but to fight because they're got nanomachines regulating their emotions and keeping them from running. This sets up a pretty neat Heroic BSoD as Raiden realizes "you know... slicing people in half and ripping out their spines to heal myself probably isn't something that a good person would do" and leads in to a really fun boss battle.
I thought it was a pretty neat variation on the "faceless mooks" that action heroes usually end up slaughtering by the hundreds and accrue no karma penalty for.
Of course this is also the game with quotes such as "Your memes... end here!" and "NANOMACHINES, SON!" so you can take that with a pretty huge grain of salt.
The enemies in Baldur's Gate aren't controlled by nanomachines though. There's very few times when any of them surrender and stop trying to kill you and you can let them go (a couple guys in the Cloakwood mine, I think).
Sure, you can say that the gameplay limits you to strictly fatal solutions for most encounters, which is true, but you should try playing a thief sometime. You'd be surprised at how little killing you actually have to do. Like I said, I won't fault anyone for slaughtering their way through everything but I believe a "good" protagonist would try to minimize collateral damage. For my cleric/thief that means avoiding fights but righteously backstaffing anyone who really deserves it or when it can't be helped. It's actually much easier than fighting everyone, believe it or not.
No one answered the question I raised in my other post but I'm still curious about how you guys approach the Oasis/Balthazar encounters with a good character.
I'm just gonna get Belm later on, and I use Celestial Fury in my main hand (holy crap that katana is good... I never found it before)
I don't think I've ever used Celestial Fury either, I gotta give it a shot. I managed to not screw up getting the Flail of Ages this game, last time I got all the pieces but forgot you had to forge it inside the keep *facepalm*
You ask why Keldorn. Well that is a rather complicated situation. I normally tend to play evil parties but I'm a big fan of Keldorn and Paladins in general. Hence, my obsession with recruiting Keldorn.