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F/T multiclass hit points

kaffekoppenkaffekoppen Member Posts: 377
I've just imported my F/T from BG1. In BG1, it explicitly states that you get 8 HP per level (plus con bonuses). Now in BG2 it says that you gain 10 HP per level. I thought the system was supposed to be the same in the two new EE versions, but it seems this is not the case.

However, I tried rolling up a new F/T in BG2 with maximized hit points and 19 con. At level 6/7 he has 83 HP. That matches 6 * 8 + 7 * 5, which just happens to be the same exact thing BG1:EE does (the fighter levels give 8 and the thief levels give 5, at 19-20 con). So perhaps the system is in fact the same and BG2:EE simply displays the wrong HP/level.

Comments

  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,247
    Yeah d10 is for fighters, so that can't be right, or there'd be even less reason to stay single classed then there already is.
  • KhyronKhyron Member Posts: 309
    Keep in mind that when you're multiclassed you get less hp than originally stated. I can't seem to remember how it calculates hp right now though.. but it's roughly like this:

    Leveling class HP roll + Con divided on 2 = X

    So for every Fighter level you should get something like 10+5/2= 7.5
    And for every thief 6+3/2= 4.5

    7.5x6= 45
    4.5x7= 32.5

    Total 72.5.. unless you're Dual Classed.. which is an entirely different matter lol.
  • ZanoZano Member Posts: 3
    Khyron said:

    Keep in mind that when you're multiclassed you get less hp than originally stated. I can't seem to remember how it calculates hp right now though.. but it's roughly like this:

    Leveling class HP roll + Con divided on 2 = X

    So for every Fighter level you should get something like 10+5/2= 7.5
    And for every thief 6+3/2= 4.5

    7.5x6= 45
    4.5x7= 32.5

    Total 72.5.. unless you're Dual Classed.. which is an entirely different matter lol.

    Worth noting that the Con bonus will round up, so better to look at the math separately.

    Fighter -> (10/2)+(5/2) = 5+3 = 8 per level

    Not sure why Thief would be giving 5 per level at max though. Thief is d6 and Con bonuses for non-warriors is supposed to cut-off at +2 per level, so I'd expect it to be 4 per level.
  • KhyronKhyron Member Posts: 309
    You're right, Zano. I wasn't on my game there :D

    I just remembered that thieves gain no hp beyond 16 Con.. which is +3 for warrior classes and just +2 for thieves - which is where i had a blip.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,448
    Yea that seems buggered up.
  • kaffekoppenkaffekoppen Member Posts: 377
    edited January 2014
    Zano said:



    Fighter -> (10/2)+(5/2) = 5+3 = 8 per level

    Not sure why Thief would be giving 5 per level at max though. Thief is d6 and Con bonuses for non-warriors is supposed to cut-off at +2 per level, so I'd expect it to be 4 per level.

    Well, perhaps it works like this:

    fighter HP = 10/2 + round up(con bonus / 2) = 5 + 3 = 8
    thief HP = 6/2 + round up but max 2(con bonus / 2) = 3 + 2 = 5

    I guess that would explain it. Still, the number that's being displayed on the character sheet for hit points per level makes very little sense.

    EDIT: Nope, suddenly I got 6 HP from a thief level for the very first time in the 10 thief levels I have. I wonder why such a simple thing as player HP was made so convoluted.
    Post edited by kaffekoppen on
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 2,773
    BG applies the warrior Constitution bonus fully to Fighter/X multi-classes, not just to the "warrior" hp. Since your thief level will usually be ahead of your fighter level, you'll get 1/2 your CON bonus for your thief levels in excess of fighter levels (rounded down).

    It actually looks like this:

    HP = (d10 * Fighter level)/2 + (d6 * Thief level)/2 + (CON Bonus * Fighter level) + ((1/2 CON bonus, round down) * (Thief level - Fighter level)).

    Jarrakul
  • islandkingislandking Member Posts: 382
    Hmm, it confuses me, round up or down, seems complicated...
  • moody_magemoody_mage Member Posts: 2,046
    Damned thread Necromancers...
  • islandkingislandking Member Posts: 382
    edited July 11

    Damned thread Necromancers...

    Because I never understand the above equation? And there's one person above who says roundup, one says rounddown and none of posts are clear how much HP gain each level up. I could make a new question thread about multi-class HP, but that'd be redundant after I found this thread.

    Anyways, I ran some quick tests, the results are:
    18con f(1)m(1)c(1) > f(1)m(1)c(2) HP gained: 3
    18con f(1)m(1)c(2) > f(2)m(1)c(2) HP gained: 4
    18con f(2)m(1)c(2) > f(2)m(2)c(2) HP gained: 3

    18con f(1)m(1)t(1) > f(1)m(1)t(2) HP gained: 3
    18con f(1)m(1)t(2) > f(2)m(1)t(2) HP gained: 4
    18con f(2)m(1)t(2) > f(2)m(2)t(3) HP gained: 6

    Could anyone explain what's the equation behind each of them?
    Many thanks.
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 1,983
    @islandking I don't know all the rounding details off the top of my head, but I'm an empiricist, so let's plug the numbers in and see what we find.

    The basic equation is ([max of class hit die] + [con bonus]) / [number of classes]. Let's see how that rounds.

    18con f(1)m(1)c(1) > f(1)m(1)c(2) HP gained: 3
    Max class hit die: 8 (clerics get d8)
    Con bonus: 4
    Number of classes: 3
    Equation: (8 + 4)/3 = 4
    Well that can't be it. Interesting. Let's try rounding the 8 and the 4 individually.
    8/3 = 2 2/3, rounded down is 2
    4/3 = 1 1/3, rounded down is 1
    Individually-rounded equation: 2 + 1 = 3
    That checks out. Let's see if it works for the others.

    18con f(1)m(1)c(2) > f(2)m(1)c(2) HP gained: 4
    Max class hit die: 10 (fighters get d10)
    Con bonus: 4
    Number of classes: 3
    For convenience, I'm going to denote our individually-rounded-down terms with curly braces {}.
    Equation: {10/3} + {4/3} = 3 + 1 = 4
    Still good.

    18con f(2)m(1)c(2) > f(2)m(2)c(2) HP gained: 3
    Max class hit die: 4 (mages get d4)
    Con bonus: 4
    Number of classes: 3
    Equation: {4/3} + {4/3} = 1 + 1 = 2
    Well bother. That's not right. In fact, that's really not right. That's even more than (4 + 4)/3 = 2 and change. One of the fractions must carry over instead of being simply dropped in the rounding. It looks like it's the fractional Con bonus, because otherwise there'd be an extra hit point on the fighter level. It's definitely not both of them, or there'd be several more hit points.

    So, it looks like the hit die is rolled (or taken as max, as per the current standard), divided by 3, and rounded down. The Con bonus, meanwhile, appears to be divided by 3, and then the fractional component is stored and added in once a full point accumulates. This is our current theory, based on the data. Let's see if it survives more data analysis.

    18con f(1)m(1)t(1) > f(1)m(1)t(2) HP gained: 3
    Max class hit die: 6 (thieves get d6)
    Con bonus: 4
    Number of classes: 3
    Equation: {6/3} + {4/3} = 2 + 1 = 3
    Good so far.

    18con f(1)m(1)t(2) > f(2)m(1)t(2) HP gained: 4
    Max class hit die: 10
    Con bonus: 4
    Number of classes: 3
    Equation: {10/3} + {4/3} = 3 + 1 = 4
    Cool.

    18con f(2)m(1)t(2) > f(2)m(2)t(3) HP gained: 6
    This one's weird, because there are two level ups. Unfortunately, grouping them together doesn't change the expected result, so we can't be sure which of the following is used. This one:
    Max class hit die: 6 + 4 = 10
    Con bonus: 4 + 4 = 8
    Number of classes: 3
    Equation: {10/3} + {8/3} + fractional Con bonus from earlier = 6

    or these two:
    Max class hit die: 6
    Con bonus: 4
    Number of classes: 3
    Equation: {6/3} + {4/3} + fractional Con bonus from earlier = 4

    Max class hit die: 4
    Con bonus: 4
    Number of classes: 3
    Equation: {4/3} + {4/3} + fractional Con bonus from earlier = 2

    And then just 4 + 2 = 6. My guess is it's the two operations done separately, but I'm not sure without further testing.

    So we can be pretty sure based on these data that the die roll rounds down, and that the Con bonus doesn't round (instead accumulating in the background) and is applied in full to each class for fighter multies. We're not yet certain what happens when two level-ups occur simultaneously, but they're probably just happening immediately in sequence.
    islandking
  • islandkingislandking Member Posts: 382
    @Jarrakul
    Thanks Jarrakul, for the research, but I highly doubt that'd be the case,since Con bonus is not the same between fighters and thief, mage, cleric, plus from what I read from various sources, I'm fairly sure that Con bonus is a round up.

    This is more complicated that I thought, better wait someone who's willing to share the knowledge.
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 1,983
    edited July 12
    While Con bonus isn't the same for warriors and non-warriors, I'm pretty sure that warrior multiclasses use the higher warrior Con bonus for everything. So a fighter/mage with an 18 Con gets more hit points from a mage level than a thief/mage with an 18 Con. In fact, I just tested this with precisely those two classes, and it appears to be the case. Since there's no rounding involved here, there is simply no other scenario in which the fighter/mage gets 4 hit points on a mage level, but that's what happens. The thief/mage, meanwhile, gets only 3.

    Also, note that Con bonus rounding up is inconsistent with your data.

    18con f(1)m(1)c(2) > f(2)m(1)c(2) HP gained: 4
    Max class hit die: 10 (fighters get d10)
    Con bonus: 4
    Number of classes: 3
    Individually-rounded-up terms will be put in square brackets [].
    Equation: {10/3} + [4/3] = 3 + 2 = 5

    I imagine the floating fractional Con bonus is the source of the apparently-incorrect impression that Con bonuses round up.
    ThacoBellislandking
  • islandkingislandking Member Posts: 382
    edited July 13
    @Jarrakul
    Can you post your mage/thief tests result for the first few levels?

    Here's sigma_1932's post from gamefaqs:
    Multi-classed characters are supposed to have their HP averaged among their classes... so a triple-class would get 1/3 the die roll at any level up, and a double-class would get 1/2. The HP bonus from high CON is also divided by number of classes, with each part being awarded as its respective class goes up in level (fractions rounded down, last level going up gets the "rest" of the bonus, picking up the dropped fractions)... Also, in a case such as this where one of the classes gets the higher "warrior" HP bonus from high CON, then only the higher bonus is used (i.e. in this case, with 18 CON, the +4 value is used across the board as what's divided at level-ups).

    So, The cleric part would be correct... 8/2(die roll) + 4/2(CON bonus) = 4 + 2 = 6
    However, the Fighter portion would not... 10/2(die roll) + 4-2("rest" of CON bonus) = 5 + 2 = 7, but you're getting 8.

    You're sure you have a CON of 18, and didn't somehow have it boosted to 19? That would make the 8 for Fighter levels correct, since you'd be gaining a total of 5 HP from high-CON, 2 at the Cleric level (which would be gained first due to the smaller XP table), and then the "rest" (i.e. 3 points) at the Fighter level... half the hit die for warriors would be 5, and adding the other 3 points from CON would give 8.

    Of course, all this doesn't mean they coded it to work correctly in-game, and it wouldn't be the only thing they goofed.
    "

    But I never understand what s/he means, specially for the "rest" part :s
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 1,822
    edited July 13
    @islandking; @Jarrakul I looked at HPs for multi-class characters recently. In summary:
    1) Base HPs are added separately for each class. The amount of HPs given for each level gained is die roll / number of classes. Any fractions are rounded down, except that there's always a minimum value of 1. Those rounded down fractions are permanently lost, i.e. each level-up is done independently of the last for base HPs.
    2) Constitution bonuses are not done separately by class, but as a total for all levels gained to date. The calculation is number of levels multiplied by bonus (and all classes share the fighter bonus if one of the classes is a fighter) and divided by number of classes. Any fraction is rounded down.

    So, for the triple class posted above of 18 con F/M/C:

    Starting HPs are
    Fighter 10 / 3 = 3. Mage 4 / 3 = 1. Cleric 8 / 3 = 2. Con bonus 3 x 4 / 3 = 4. Total 10

    Adding a cleric level you get 2 more base HPs. Con bonus is now 4 x 4 / 3 = 5. Total 3 extra.

    Adding a fighter level you get 3 more base HPs. Con bonus now 5 x 4 / 3 = 6. Total 4 extra.

    Adding a mage level you get 1 more base HP. Con bonus now 6 x 4 / 3 = 8. Total 3 extra.


    Similarly for an 18 con F/M/T starting HPs are:
    Fighter = 3. Mage = 1. Thief = 6 / 3 = 2. Con bonus = 4. Total 10

    Adding a thief level you get 2 more base HPs and 5 total con bonus for total extra 3.

    Adding a fighter level you get 3 more base HPs and 6 con bonus for total extra 4.

    Adding a mage and thief level you get 3 more base HPs and con bonus now 7 x 4 / 3 = 9 for total extra 6.


    If you don't play with maximum HPs you will find that mages often get more HPs on level ups than thieves and clerics. The reason for this is that you always get at least 1 more base HP per level - even with a die roll of only 1. That means that a mage will always get 1 base HP, but thieves for instance will also normally get 1 base HP - only getting 2 if they roll a 6 on a d6. The particular pattern of XP with triple classes though means it tends to be the mage class that benefits from the fractions accumulating to a whole new HP for constitution bonuses, hence why they seem to be getting more HPs than you would expect.
    islandkingJarrakul
  • islandkingislandking Member Posts: 382
    edited July 13
    @Grond0
    Yes! That sounds like it, in fact, your detailed explanation makes me understand AstroBryGuy's equation (a little) better, which is about total HP but should be the same.

    I assume that a 18con f/m(9)/t(9) > f/m(10)/t(10) (assume this happens) still gets 4 con bonus because mages, thieves scale upto lvl 10?

    And, the afterwards fixed HP gain is still a round down but with a min of 1 ? --- actually, it should be the case, since I just get 1 hp from a lvl 10+ triple multi thief :)
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 1,822
    @islandking you're right that mages and thieves still get a die roll at level 10 and therefore get their full base HPs there + con bonus. After that all level ups for multi-classes (whether double or triple) get 1 HP per level irrespective of class (any result between 1 and 2 is rounded down to 1 and anything between 0 and 1 is rounded up to 1).
    islandking
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 330
    i can confirm that the con bonus is across levels and not per class. Highest should apply unless something has changed so if you have a fighter class you should always be using the improved con bonus but you should only be getting part of it per particular level between the classes.

    The fractional issue is harder to figure out because certain combinations do seem to occasionally get an additional hp every so often which may be from remainder of the con bonus being stored and rolled over to combine with the remainder of the next level.

    Not using the max hp on level up however does make the equation significantly more complicated however. do keep that in mind.
    islandking
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