Fighter/thief vs fighter->thief
kryptix
Member Posts: 741
I've never played one and I think it would be interesting. Not sure if I want dual or multi though because fighter hla seem pretty vital but the dual gets grand mastery and can be a kensai/berserker.
I guess I can always EE keeper in a kit on the multi and then that might be better. If I do that would I rather do berserker, kensai, dwarven defender or assassin?
I don't think grandmastery alone is worth losing fighter hlas...
I'd probably go with staff, 2 hand swords and halberds since I never played a 2h fighter...
I guess I can always EE keeper in a kit on the multi and then that might be better. If I do that would I rather do berserker, kensai, dwarven defender or assassin?
I don't think grandmastery alone is worth losing fighter hlas...
I'd probably go with staff, 2 hand swords and halberds since I never played a 2h fighter...
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Do you want to play the character you envisioned from the start of the game OR wait some time(possibly a really long time) and play a more powerful version of the character you envisioned later in the game?
I personally, prefer multis. When you play a dual class, you are playing through 7-13 levels of what you are dualing from, and 8-14 levels of whatever you are dualing into. Depending on what your class choices are, that is a large chunk of SOA before you can even play the character you wanted to. No fun if you ask me.
To each their own, though. Lots of people like min/maxing and powergaming to create imba classes.
To answer a couple of your specific questions:
1. The most powerful combination would be a Kensai->Thief dualed at 13. Take UAI as your first HLA to offset all Kensai penalties.
2. The lack of greater whirlwind, which is the primary fighter HLA, can be made for with Improved Haste.
3. Also just so you are aware, of the weapons you listed, you would only be able to backstab with staves. You can only backstab with weapons a pure thief can use, which means no halberds or 2hs.
As has been said several times, to each their own. I don't even have the patience for a lvl 13 dual a lot of the time.
Answering the OP, from what i remember the choice between Dual Class and Multi Class resume in this conflict of advantages below:
Dual Class - Can go for Grand Mastery (even if it's 2 lvls in fighter)
Multi Class - Can take HLA from both classes.
Dual Class - Longer to become useful and in BG2:EE need to reach 3.000.000 with the second class to achieve HLAs.
Multi-Class - Can't take kits here and take longer to level up.
If you were going for a fighter/druid combination, i would say Dual Class for sure, cos Druids get the best of their level 7 spells at level 15 in fact, and with multi-class you need 6.000.000 divided between both classes to reach that, however as a fighter/thief, multi-class is pretty useful.
If you're willing to keeper anyway, the multi kensei/thief would end up more powerful than the standard kensei-> thief duals at levels 9 or 13. The extra handful of kensei levels make up for the difference between specialization and grand mastery damage wise, though you'll still be a half attack a round lower than a 13 dual. To compensate for this though, you get whirlwind, which is super useful if you want to use 2h weapons as you can't otherwise get to 10 attacks per round with them. Also, having played a kensei 13 dual to thief, the downtime is really annoying.
As for which kit to use- kensei is the standard power choice. Super strong backstabs, good toe to toe ability, no downsides once UAI hits.
Dwarven defender is new and sort of interesting, but the abilities are obviously designed for a tank. The defensive stance slowdown (or is it a root in place?) makes it much harder to run behind corners to re-hide for more stabbing.
Wizard slayer is a less powerful but more interesting alternative to kensei. With UAI you once again get to ignore all downsides, and with a few items you would enjoy 100% magic resistance. The magic failure chance may or may not be useful. In my kensei -> thief dual game most wizards got a nice backstab chunking before they could cast much anyway, but the ability might be useful for backstab immunes.
The problem is that with SCS, most mages start out buffed so unless I just play a lot of hide and seek, its very hard to deal with them without all of the magic defense removals etc. Each mage has like 5-7 PfMW while they just gate in pit fiends etc...
With the multi, I would get UAI probably in chapter 3 or at most chapter 4 if I take a 5 man party (and pick up imoen, where I would save all of my scrolls for her to scribe with just charname in the party).
If I do do this, should I blitz Watcher's keep early for the staff of the ram? Otherwise, am I using staff of rhyn from ribald for backstabs until at least chapter 6?
Is this viable without defender of easthaven late game tanking wise?
I figure once I do have UAI, Carosmyr + whirlwind will take care of any mages outside of the massive battle in ust natha once you agro everything and the waves of drow spawn...
I personally am usually more of a fan of berserker than kensai for those very reasons actually.
I figure most of the major bosses etc are going to be immune to backstab though right?
For HLAs, I figure I'll need 4-6 GWW, at least 1-2 Critical Strikes (for crit backstabs), and 3-4 hardiness to survive. Of the rest, should I be getting things like time trap or things like assassination?
That said, with assassination, do you still have to use a weapon you can backstab with? IE can I "assassination" with a ranged weapon and just pop off a whole bunch of enemies that can't run away with tuigan?
I might be wrong about some of these as I don't use it myself but on paper I think it will be ridiculously powerful. With the right three scrolls in your quickslot you can replicate many of a F/M/T's abilities without the exp penalty.
That still sounds pretty powerful though.
From the suggestions, I'm kinda leaning towards either a berserker/thief or a dwarven defender/thief... I think since it should be legal PnP, its not that big of a deal to do it using Keeper, and it just adds a bit more flavor than a vanila character would allow. I guess I'll take it through BG1 as well...
I'm debating if this would be viable to combine with the shorty party I wanted to do, which would be Mazzy, Korgan and Jan... I guess I'd have to install at least one mod in BG2 for a cleric of some sort to make it viable unless I take Viconia. Mage fights without a pure mage with high level spells will also be tough I think because Jan won't get any level 9 spells or HLA spells until well into at least the underdark.
Between the two, I would go berserker. You have tanks in mazzy and korgan, and berserker is the slightly less tanky of the two kits.
Don't worry too much about party composition- remember that people have soloed the game as nearly every class I think, though that sometimes entailed exploit based tactics or skipping some fights.
Also, I don't know if you've used keeper before, but be aware that you might encounter some minor issues when you add a kit to multi. I think the fighter kits aren't so bad about it, but for example I'm trying to work a mage/assassin and I can't get it to only give me 15 thief points per level.
I heard about the assassin issue and figured if I ever did one I'd just pump the extra points into pickpocket or into over 100 in traps etc to not affect things much, or I'd just edit every level up...
Do you just create the character in keeper or roll then add?
For the actual classes being discussed it seems like a F/T multiclass will be consistently more powerful than a K->T throughout the entire trilogy. From the outset you get to play as a stronger race. The dual class is easily inferior until the dual-classing process is over, for obvious reasons. Then the K->T has to deal with item restrictions until UAI, meanwhile the F/T is still going strong. When HLAs become available the obvious main weakness of the K->T disappears, but at this point the F/T has levelled higher as a fighter, and should have received a couple of HLAs already thanks to only need 3 mill exp total. At really high levels the F/T again outpaces the K->T again thanks to fighter HLAs and greater versatility in weapon specialisation. Grandmastery makes up for some of the advantages of higher fighter levels, and adds some damage, but only for one weapon type. For a Fighter/Thief it's nice to be able to use different weapons in different situations. The fighter HLA pool is better for stacking HLAs than the thief pool, which, in principle, doesn't benefit that much from stacking thanks to the trap placement limit, resting, and even normal traps. It seems like an easy win for the multiclass to me.
Dwarven Defenders can now get to 90% I think, but that puts you into a very specialised defensive fighter class as opposed to a very versatile F/T who can do all that while disarming traps, casting from scrolls and backstabbing.
This is picked as being mechanically superior, despite the delay.
Mid BGII (1,500,000): Fighter 13 (Inert) -> Thief 11. 290 Thief Skills. 4 proficiency pips, 1 Attack, x4 Backstab, 15 THAC0.
BGII "Cap" (2,950,000): Fighter 13 (Active) -> Thief 17. 14 proficiency pips, 2 Attacks, x5 Backstab, 8 THAC0, Grand Mastery possible (this is actually an engine bug, as Thieves cannot specialise, but it seems people can't help but abuse this one) for 5 THAC0, 3 Attacks per round in up to two weapon types, 440 Thief skills.
Mid-ToB (4,000,000): Thief 22. No HLAs. +1 Proficiency pip, "Enough" Thief Skills for pretty much whatever.
Late-ToB (6,000,000): Thief 31. 8 Thief HLAs, +2 Proficiency pips.
End-ToB (8,000,000): Thief 39. 16 Thief HLAs, +2 Proficiency pips.
End: 5(8) THAC0, 3(2) APR, 19 Proficiency pips, 990 Thief Skill points, x5 Backstab. 5/4/6/5/5 Saves.
Endgame Kit benefits/penalties:
Kensai: -2 AC, +4 THAC0, +4 damage. Kai x3 (Kai meshes decently with Backstab, but is hard to set up). Cannot use Bracers (essentially a -1 to hit, -2 damage penalty for BG), or armour (essentially no Human Flesh) until HLAs (4.25m Exp).
Berserker: Enrage x3 (Lolimmune to everything for 3 minutes/day, +2 to hit, damage, -& 2 AC).
Cannot specialise in ranged weapons (a joke penalty).
Wizard Slayer: 38% MR, 10% spell failure chance in melee.
Cannot use anything good until HLAs.
EE Keeper added Kits:
Assassin: -390 Thief Skills, Poison Weapon x9. Backstab x7. +1 to hit, +1 to damage.
Bounty Hunter: -195 Thief Skills, Special Bounty Hunter traps (which start awesome and end similarly awesome in a different way).
Swashbuckler: No backstab. -8 AC, +7 to Hit, +7 to damage (eat your heart out Kensai).
Shadowdancer: -390 Thief Skills, only x4 Backstab. +1 to all saves. Hide in Plain Sight, 13x Shadowstep.
Barbarian: No mastery, limited armour use until HLAs, +2 movement speed, backstab immunity, +18 HP max, 10% Physical damage resistance, x3 Rages (not quite lolimmune, but still pretty good, and decent self-healing too).
F/T
Mid BGII (1,500,000): F/T 11/13. 340 Thief Skills. 7 proficiency pips, 1.5 Attacks, x5 Backstab, 10 THAC0.
BGII "Cap" (2,950,000): F/T 13/16. 415 Thief Skills. 8 proficiency pips, 2 Attacks, x5 Backstab, 8 THAC0.
Legal Dual Classing is outright better at the SoA "cap" than Multiclassing by 1 thief level and kit bonuses.
Mid-ToB (4,000,000): 16/19. 6 HLAs (Fighter or Thief). +1 Proficiency pip, 5 THAC0, 490 skill points.
At 50,000 Exp above the SoA cap, Multiclass has its first HLA, by mid ToB, the only benefit the Dual has are thief skill points and 1/2 an attack for Grand Mastery.
Late-ToB (6,000,000): 20/23. 14 HLAs, +1 Proficiency pip, 1 THAC0, enough Thief skill points forever.
F/T now outclasses the dual in THAC0, and has twice as many HLAs.
End-ToB (8,000,000): 24/28. 23 HLAs, +2 Proficiency pips, 0 THAC0.
End: -1(0) THAC0, 2.5(2) APR, 12 Proficiency pips, 715 Thief Skill points, x5 Backstab, 3/4/4/4/5 saves.
Endgame Kit benefits/penalties:
EE Keeper added Kits:
Kensai: -2 AC, +8 THAC0, +8 damage. Kai x6. Cannot use Bracers (essentially a -1 to hit, -2 damage penalty for BG), helms or armour (essentially no Human Flesh) until HLAs (3m exp).
Berserker: Enrage x6 (Lolimmune to everything for 3 minutes/day, +2 to hit, damage, -& 2 AC).
Cannot specialise in ranged weapons (still a joke penalty).
Wizard Slayer: 64% MR, 10% spell failure chance in melee.
Cannot use anything good until HLAs, at which point instant 100% MR is very doable.
Barbarian: Limited armour use until HLAs (non-issue), no HP change (Fighter/Thief use their own HP progression table). +2 movement speed, backstab immunity, 25% Physical damage resistance, x6 Rages.
Assassin: Poison Weapon x7. Backstab x7. +1 to hit, +1 to damage.
Bounty Hunter: Special Bounty Hunter traps.
Swashbuckler: -6 AC, +5 to Hit, +5 to damage.
Shadowdancer: +1 to all saves. Hide in Plain Sight, 9x Shadowstep.
No thief kit has any penalties in a multiclass, as multiclass F/T has its own Progression instead of a kit progression. This means swashbucklers get full Backstab, and the other kits get full skillpoints.
And for completeness' sake, the F/M/T
Mid BGII (1,500,000): F/M/T 10/11/12. 315 Thief Skills. 7 proficiency pips, 1.5 Attacks, x4 Backstab, 11 THAC0, level 5 spells.
BGII "Cap" (2,950,000): F/M/T 11/12/14. 365 Thief Skills. 7 proficiency pips, 1.5 Attacks, x5 Backstab, 10 THAC0. Level 6 spells.
The F/M/T's lack of attacks and thief skills seem severe, but level 12 Mage means Knock, Invisibility, Improved Invisibility, and Mislead, effectively free, and superior, stealth, 100% open locks for free, and an array of other mage spells, buffs and damage spells that give them some serious boosts over a non-mage (like Polymorph Self's 5 APR before using Lesser Sequencer).
Mid-ToB (4,000,000): 13/13/16. 5 HLAs (Fighter or Thief). +1 Proficiency pip, 2 Attacks, 8 THAC0, 390 skill points. Still 6th level spells.
Late-ToB (6,000,000): 16/15/19. 14 HLAs, 5 THAC0, +1 Proficiency Pip, 465 Thief skills, 7th level spells.
End-ToB (8,000,000): 18/17/22. 23 HLAs, +1 Proficiency pip, 3 THAC0, 8th level spells.
End: 2(3) THAC0, 2.5(2) APR, 10 Proficiency pips, 565 Thief Skill points, x5 Backstab, 3/4/4/4/5 saves.
Endgame Kit benefits/penalties:
EE Keeper added Kits:
Kensai: -2 AC, +6 THAC0, +6 damage. Kai x4. Cannot use bracers, helms or armour (essentially no Human Flesh) until HLAs (3m exp).
Berserker: Enrage x4 (Lolimmune to everything for 3 minutes/day, +2 to hit, damage, -& 2 AC).
Cannot specialise in ranged weapons (still a joke penalty).
Wizard Slayer: 48% MR, 10% spell failure chance in melee.
Cannot use anything good until HLAs, at which point instant 100% MR is even more doable.
Barbarian: Limited armour use until HLAs (completely irrelevant), no HP change, no scroll use pre-HLAs (may still scribe). +2 movement speed, backstab immunity, 15% Physical damage resistance, x4 Rages.
Assassin: Poison Weapon x5. Backstab x7. +1 to hit, +1 to damage.
Bounty Hunter: Special Bounty Hunter traps.
Swashbuckler: -5 AC, +4 to Hit, +4 to damage.
Shadowdancer: +1 to all saves. Hide in Plain Sight, 7x Shadowstep.
Wild Mage: Level 9 spell access with Nahal's, Wild Surges, +1 Spell / level
Any other specialist: +1 spell / level.
No thief kit has any penalties in a multiclass, as multiclass F/T has its own Progression instead of a kit progression. This means swashbucklers get full Backstab, and the other kits get full skillpoints.
For my money, best to worst:
Keepered F/M/T
F/M/T
Keepered F/T
Keepered F -> T
F/T
F -> T