Limited inventory would probably make me go for longbows and then shortbows so I'd only have to carry around arrows, rather than arrows and bolts. Don't recall when you get the quiver of plenty, but I think its in ToB (I might be wrong though).
Would have been nice if they added a longbow along the lines of Gesen's/Firetooth, feels like a bit of an oversight that longbows didn't get an unlimited ammo launcher like most other ranged weapons.
Limited inventory would probably make me go for longbows and then shortbows so I'd only have to carry around arrows, rather than arrows and bolts. Don't recall when you get the quiver of plenty, but I think its in ToB (I might be wrong though).
Would have been nice if they added a longbow along the lines of Gesen's/Firetooth, feels like a bit of an oversight that longbows didn't get an unlimited ammo launcher like most other ranged weapons.
Quiver of Plenty is in the first floor of Watcher's Keep, and easily accessible without fighting most of the enemies on that level. As is an Ammo Belt, actually, which rather solves the inventory management puzzle nicely.
If anyone is interested in supporting my quest for a longbow to gain unlimited ammo. Also if you want Grand Mastery in Shortbows about the time that Gesen is coming around, then you literally would need to start at level 1 with 2 points in Longbow and 2 points in shortbow.
Quiver of Plenty is in the first floor of Watcher's Keep, and easily accessible without fighting most of the enemies on that level. As is an Ammo Belt, actually, which rather solves the inventory management puzzle nicely.
I was probably thinking of the upgraded versions, maybe I'll give another party member firetooth, no sense letting a perfectly good grenade launcher.. I mean, crossbow go to waste. Mainly just a preference thing though I feel but thank you for clearing up where the quiver/ammo belt came from.
Yes to all replies ! Actually, I was mistaken. Because of the EE weapon proficiency system rework, you can now reach 5 attacks per round if you put 5 points in shortbow and use the Tuigan bow @ level 13. Slaughter ahead...
I've modded some longbows to have unlimited ammo as well as enchanted to hit +5 creatures. It's pretty overpowered, particularly with blackguard poison.
Archers have an easier time than Kensai in BG1 because missle weapons are just so damn good in BG1 for various reasons (mostly for safe keep-away, but also abusing the fact that some enemies are just really damn slow), whereas Kensai has a few points where they kick ass but otherwise struggle against capable fighters who can hit him quite easily (Sarevok being notorious in this).
In BG2 the Archer starts to dwindle down as missle weapons become less special whereas the Kensai is getting more attacks per round and even more ridiculous THAC0 and damage buffs, on top of the large THAC0 making use of his Kai ability.
Overall I'd say it's Kensai that wins out, because the Kensai has a whole lot more options in the series than an Archer can get; it's almost no contest.... not to say Archer doesn't have its moments, but the fact that late-BG2 enemies require certain enchanted arrows to hit them (and these enchanted arrows become rarer or less frequent late in the game) it becomes hard to actually defend Archer as a more viable class.
Maybe someone could mod into the game, a Case, Quiver and Bag of Plenty with whatever enchantment is the minimum required to hit every possible enemy in the game so Archers can be properly relevant in ToB...
Giving Caspenar the gold and gems required to upgrade them from +1 to +2 again enhance them to +3, then +4 (and +5 if you need that to hit everything...)
You can also wait for the new item revisions mod to come out. Then you will have some great longbows to play around with, plus items generally being a lot cooler!
I just want to throw in a little advertisement for Foebane +5. This weapon is an absolute beast. If I wanted to play a kensai again, I'd use that in my main hand and probably Belm in the offhand. As much as we all love the Flail of Ages, you can't be hasted if you're using the +5 version because it has free action. You *can* be hasted with Foebane, and you'll be healing up some of the damage you just can't avoid as a kensai.
Overall I'd say it's Kensai that wins out, because the Kensai has a whole lot more options in the series than an Archer can get; it's almost no contest.... not to say Archer doesn't have its moments, but the fact that late-BG2 enemies require certain enchanted arrows to hit them (and these enchanted arrows become rarer or less frequent late in the game) it becomes hard to actually defend Archer as a more viable class.
There's no doubt that the kensai deals more damage. However, there's also no doubt that archers are viable.
You can get unlimited +4 ammo with Gesen and unlimited +5 ammo with Firetooth +5. Firetooth +4 is available early in BG2, and there's a nice +3 bow with unlimited ammo that's also available early. On top of that, there's an early +5 sling, and slings get strength bonuses (and I believe archer bonuses work on slings as well even though you can't get grandmastery in them!). The only thing that really sucks is that any special arrows you pick up don't have those nice to-hit properties.
I kind of want to play an archer despite all the negative press. I honestly believe it's a good class. It doesn't do nearly as much damage as the kensai but how many classes can really live up to that? Archers have insane THAC0 so they pretty much only miss on a 1. With their archer damage bonuses, they deal respectable damage. Because they are ranged, they can deal their damage out of harm's way, much unlike the kensai who really has to have a babysitter and/or a personal healer.
The main problem as I see it is that it's a boring class. It does one thing, it sits there and shoots arrows/bolts. For me this is a non-issue since I'll just be micromanaging my other party-members instead.
A short version of my post would be: kensais deal more damage without question and are probably "most powerful", but archers are totally viable, they're even good, and they require less babysitting.
Well as I said in a previous post I mainly only ever used ranged weapons as a secondary option. I do love the concept of the Kensai and when its all said and done the Archer is a Kensai with ranged weapons (or near enough in my opinion).
In fact the issue really when its all said and done is not so much the class itself but the fact that if you go through BG:EE your archer will likely be using longbows which have much less viable weapon options in BG2:EE.
Though in the end its a moot point, they are both good classes and an archer can get more than enough proficiency points to master more than one weapon to render the small portion of largely immune enemies a non-issue.
I guess my main concern in the end was more about getting most of the way through both games and then being useless as an archer halfway through BG2:EE or just avoiding the issue entirely by picking something 'safer' (in terms of viability throughout the saga.)
I don't think longbows are really *that* much better in BG1 that they're worth picking as a specialization. There's one good crossbow and there is a +2 shortbow as well. Long-term, you could grandmaster crossbows *and* shortbows. You could get slings too. Or you could go with some weapon to dual-wield since you already have two pips in TWF. All are better options than longbows IMO.
Then again this likely all wouldn't be an issue if longbows had a Firetooth/Gesen's equivalent among them. I mean even just making the Mana Bow or Taralash generate their own enchanted ammo would be a welcome addition.
I am leaning toward crossbows slightly for simplicity's sake though wasn't there an issue with them only having 1 APR? Or was that fixed?
Only issue I have would be that crossbows wouldn't really fit to me thematically for an elven archer though making a human one wouldn't be amiss (aside from losing the bonus from bow's and 19 DEX) I'm likely just overthinking it. :P
Not really intending to power game as there are far better choices for that just trying to avoid picking something that I'd end up regretting half way through BG2, it is after all a rather hefty pair of games.
Crossbows only have 1 APR. There's a special one in BG1 that has 2. You can of course increase it with grandmastery, haste and a pair of gauntlets later on. I think the main reason to master them is Firetooth.
Oh and yes, elves are "best". I say "best" because your THAC0 will be absurdly low anyway. I wish you could be a halfling ranger instead to be honest.
Halfing Ranger with an archer kit, special advantage grandmastery in slings? (Though I suppose that'd be called a slinger) Yes please :P
Really isn't the hitting or missing that bothers me and I imagine you can get through BG1 with almost any class or kit. It's when you get to BG2 but then again I don't think there are all that many enemies that even require a +4 weapon that would entirely negate an archer so long as you had Gesen's/Firetooth as a secondary ranged weapon (if you were going for longbows). Plus the whole slashing and piercing resistance.
Though that was why I always tended toward blunt weapons if I went for a melee type (excepting paladins for obvious reasons).
The problem with the Kensai is that their AC doesn't improve with level like a monk. Meaning that for quite a while you have to babysit them until they are able to just run up to things and turn it into a cloud of meaty chunks before they even realise you are there.
Those before me have already provided more answers than I can add to, and in any event, I've never used an archer Charname before.
But one thing puzzles me. Why archer or Kensai? The two kits are totally different. I might expect a Cavalier or Inquisitor? Or Mage or Sorcerer? Or Fighter/Thief or Bard? But the two u wanna compare are totally different... Just sayin'
Those before me have already provided more answers than I can add to, and in any event, I've never used an archer Charname before.
But one thing puzzles me. Why archer or Kensai? The two kits are totally different. I might expect a Cavalier or Inquisitor? Or Mage or Sorcerer? Or Fighter/Thief or Bard? But the two u wanna compare are totally different... Just sayin'
As out of all the classes and kits I've never done before these two stand out most, nothing more. There are plenty more powerful options, especially if you consider dual or multi-class (cleric/mage, fighter/cleric, kensai/mage, f/m/t etc).
I suppose I could have included a monk as a potential choice but I always found them a little dull due to the lack of needing weapons or much gear at all along the way.
If anyone is interested in supporting my quest for a longbow to gain unlimited ammo. Also if you want Grand Mastery in Shortbows about the time that Gesen is coming around, then you literally would need to start at level 1 with 2 points in Longbow and 2 points in shortbow.
You're actually better off petitioning someone to transfer over the item upgrade mod, which included a +3 (or was it +4?) longbow with infinite ammo you could make, among other things.
In all honesty, my Archer was more efficient than my kensage even in BG2. But that may be because i foolishly went grandmastery in short swords with my kensage...
Something about being able to be far away from the enemy without any risk of damage (+ debuffing them with called shot), is more important to me than damage per second you get with a kensage.
Cleric/Archer is more OP then Kensage imho...Its ridiculous, however you do need to have Ashes of Embers mod (realistic weapon ethos), or just edit it yourself so you can be a "cleric/ranger" and use bows.
As far as the type of bow goes, unfortunately its crossbow/shortbow or GTFO. But, it never bothered me.
Thanks I didn't know that. In that case we have yet ANOTHER shortbow making our longbows obsolete =( I wonder if we mark it down as a bug on the bug forum if they'll change the wording.
Yup Tuigan Bow is the best bow in the game easily... + Quiver of plenty +1/2 is amazing
Until you get to ToB, when everyone is immune to it (with some exceptions), but at that point your speed is awesome enough to switch to Short Bow of Gesen.
Well, there are more than enough proficiency points for it not to matter so long as you can use a crossbow or shortbow for the fights where the target might be immune. Then along with all the specialist arrows I guess an archer in BG2 falls into a supporting role. Which given I'll be playing with a full party of NPC's is no bad thing.
Mainly I was just afraid of an archer becoming nigh on useless in the latter half of BG2, hence considering the Kensai as an alternative as I don't think anything is even resistant to blunt weapons? (correct me if I am wrong). Fond memories of my DC Fighter/Cleric with Crom Faeyr and flail of ages.
So apologies if I've made things unclear, once more thanks for all the helpful posts.
Crossbows only have 1 APR. There's a special one in BG1 that has 2. You can of course increase it with grandmastery, haste and a pair of gauntlets later on. I think the main reason to master them is Firetooth..
That would be the light crossbow of speed that I mentioned in the post above yours, and you can get it in both games (Bertrand in the Copper Coronet sells it in the second).
Well, there are more than enough proficiency points for it not to matter so long as you can use a crossbow or shortbow for the fights where the target might be immune. Then along with all the specialist arrows I guess an archer in BG2 falls into a supporting role. Which given I'll be playing with a full party of NPC's is no bad thing.
Mainly I was just afraid of an archer becoming nigh on useless in the latter half of BG2, hence considering the Kensai as an alternative as I don't think anything is even resistant to blunt weapons? (correct me if I am wrong). Fond memories of my DC Fighter/Cleric with Crom Faeyr and flail of ages.
So apologies if I've made things unclear, once more thanks for all the helpful posts.
Archer is quite efficient melee as well (albeit not nearly as efficient as a fighter).
but i can definitely tell you that they will never be useless.
But i may be hyping it up, because i played a Cleric/Archer...who is beyond OP...so im trying to strip it of the cleric benefits.
I don't have any difficulty-enhancing mods, but I've always wondered about the kensai = glass cannon mantra that goes around here. There are loads of items in this game that help with defense. Just the shield amulet will set your AC to 4, which is -2 with DEX and kensai bonuses.
Mainly I was just afraid of an archer becoming nigh on useless in the latter half of BG2, hence considering the Kensai as an alternative as I don't think anything is even resistant to blunt weapons? (correct me if I am wrong). Fond memories of my DC Fighter/Cleric with Crom Faeyr and flail of ages.
I think one or two of the slime types and the shambling mounds might be, but nowhere near the damage and pain of the clay golems.
I don't have any difficulty-enhancing mods, but I've always wondered about the kensai = glass cannon mantra that goes around here. There are loads of items in this game that help with defense. Just the shield amulet will set your AC to 4, which is -2 with DEX and kensai bonuses.
EDIT: This is essentially from level 1.
True enough (although it requires spamming those limited-use amulets), and they do have fighter HP as well. They may not be true glass cannons but they aren't good tanks either.
For my two kensai playthroughs so far, I've had a dedicated tank to take the heat. My kensai runs in just after and starts chunking things.
The only thing that annoys me somewhat with kensais is their inability to gain one half attack more through those neat gauntlets. There's no class in the game that could do more damage with a bit of extra APR than a kensai.
Comments
Would have been nice if they added a longbow along the lines of Gesen's/Firetooth, feels like a bit of an oversight that longbows didn't get an unlimited ammo launcher like most other ranged weapons.
If anyone is interested in supporting my quest for a longbow to gain unlimited ammo. Also if you want Grand Mastery in Shortbows about the time that Gesen is coming around, then you literally would need to start at level 1 with 2 points in Longbow and 2 points in shortbow.
Actually, I was mistaken. Because of the EE weapon proficiency system rework, you can now reach 5 attacks per round if you put 5 points in shortbow and use the Tuigan bow @ level 13. Slaughter ahead...
In BG2 the Archer starts to dwindle down as missle weapons become less special whereas the Kensai is getting more attacks per round and even more ridiculous THAC0 and damage buffs, on top of the large THAC0 making use of his Kai ability.
Overall I'd say it's Kensai that wins out, because the Kensai has a whole lot more options in the series than an Archer can get; it's almost no contest.... not to say Archer doesn't have its moments, but the fact that late-BG2 enemies require certain enchanted arrows to hit them (and these enchanted arrows become rarer or less frequent late in the game) it becomes hard to actually defend Archer as a more viable class.
Giving Caspenar the gold and gems required to upgrade them from +1 to +2 again enhance them to +3, then +4 (and +5 if you need that to hit everything...)
You can get unlimited +4 ammo with Gesen and unlimited +5 ammo with Firetooth +5. Firetooth +4 is available early in BG2, and there's a nice +3 bow with unlimited ammo that's also available early. On top of that, there's an early +5 sling, and slings get strength bonuses (and I believe archer bonuses work on slings as well even though you can't get grandmastery in them!). The only thing that really sucks is that any special arrows you pick up don't have those nice to-hit properties.
I kind of want to play an archer despite all the negative press. I honestly believe it's a good class. It doesn't do nearly as much damage as the kensai but how many classes can really live up to that? Archers have insane THAC0 so they pretty much only miss on a 1. With their archer damage bonuses, they deal respectable damage. Because they are ranged, they can deal their damage out of harm's way, much unlike the kensai who really has to have a babysitter and/or a personal healer.
The main problem as I see it is that it's a boring class. It does one thing, it sits there and shoots arrows/bolts. For me this is a non-issue since I'll just be micromanaging my other party-members instead.
A short version of my post would be: kensais deal more damage without question and are probably "most powerful", but archers are totally viable, they're even good, and they require less babysitting.
In fact the issue really when its all said and done is not so much the class itself but the fact that if you go through BG:EE your archer will likely be using longbows which have much less viable weapon options in BG2:EE.
Though in the end its a moot point, they are both good classes and an archer can get more than enough proficiency points to master more than one weapon to render the small portion of largely immune enemies a non-issue.
I guess my main concern in the end was more about getting most of the way through both games and then being useless as an archer halfway through BG2:EE or just avoiding the issue entirely by picking something 'safer' (in terms of viability throughout the saga.)
I don't think longbows are really *that* much better in BG1 that they're worth picking as a specialization. There's one good crossbow and there is a +2 shortbow as well. Long-term, you could grandmaster crossbows *and* shortbows. You could get slings too. Or you could go with some weapon to dual-wield since you already have two pips in TWF. All are better options than longbows IMO.
I am leaning toward crossbows slightly for simplicity's sake though wasn't there an issue with them only having 1 APR? Or was that fixed?
Only issue I have would be that crossbows wouldn't really fit to me thematically for an elven archer though making a human one wouldn't be amiss (aside from losing the bonus from bow's and 19 DEX) I'm likely just overthinking it. :P
Not really intending to power game as there are far better choices for that just trying to avoid picking something that I'd end up regretting half way through BG2, it is after all a rather hefty pair of games.
Oh and yes, elves are "best". I say "best" because your THAC0 will be absurdly low anyway. I wish you could be a halfling ranger instead to be honest.
Really isn't the hitting or missing that bothers me and I imagine you can get through BG1 with almost any class or kit. It's when you get to BG2 but then again I don't think there are all that many enemies that even require a +4 weapon that would entirely negate an archer so long as you had Gesen's/Firetooth as a secondary ranged weapon (if you were going for longbows). Plus the whole slashing and piercing resistance.
Though that was why I always tended toward blunt weapons if I went for a melee type (excepting paladins for obvious reasons).
The problem with the Kensai is that their AC doesn't improve with level like a monk. Meaning that for quite a while you have to babysit them until they are able to just run up to things and turn it into a cloud of meaty chunks before they even realise you are there.
But one thing puzzles me. Why archer or Kensai? The two kits are totally different. I might expect a Cavalier or Inquisitor? Or Mage or Sorcerer? Or Fighter/Thief or Bard? But the two u wanna compare are totally different... Just sayin'
I suppose I could have included a monk as a potential choice but I always found them a little dull due to the lack of needing weapons or much gear at all along the way.
Something about being able to be far away from the enemy without any risk of damage (+ debuffing them with called shot), is more important to me than damage per second you get with a kensage.
Cleric/Archer is more OP then Kensage imho...Its ridiculous, however you do need to have Ashes of Embers mod (realistic weapon ethos), or just edit it yourself so you can be a "cleric/ranger" and use bows.
As far as the type of bow goes, unfortunately its crossbow/shortbow or GTFO. But, it never bothered me.
Until you get to ToB, when everyone is immune to it (with some exceptions), but at that point your speed is awesome enough to switch to Short Bow of Gesen.
Mainly I was just afraid of an archer becoming nigh on useless in the latter half of BG2, hence considering the Kensai as an alternative as I don't think anything is even resistant to blunt weapons? (correct me if I am wrong). Fond memories of my DC Fighter/Cleric with Crom Faeyr and flail of ages.
So apologies if I've made things unclear, once more thanks for all the helpful posts.
but i can definitely tell you that they will never be useless.
But i may be hyping it up, because i played a Cleric/Archer...who is beyond OP...so im trying to strip it of the cleric benefits.
EDIT: This is essentially from level 1.
For my two kensai playthroughs so far, I've had a dedicated tank to take the heat. My kensai runs in just after and starts chunking things.
The only thing that annoys me somewhat with kensais is their inability to gain one half attack more through those neat gauntlets. There's no class in the game that could do more damage with a bit of extra APR than a kensai.