What Is The Best "Weapon Setup" Statistically?
unkinhead
Member Posts: 107
What i mean is, the best combination of:
Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Style, Actual Weapon
This is assuming you can do everything.
Just in my head, i figure the best would be something like: War Hammer, Dual Wield, Runehammer +5 + Crom Faeyr
Is this the best possible setup statistically? Just curious if there is technically any better
.Thought it would be an interesting discussion.
Furthermore, what is the best setup for each weapon proficiency.
IE: Dual Wield, Angurvadal +5 and Blackrazor (Long Swords) etc, etc
And is there a weapon proficiency that you think actually works better when it is NOT dual wield (other than two handed weapons obviously)? where Sword + Shield may be better?
The most powerful setup i have done was:
Half-Orc Berserker
Strength: 25
Dexterity: 20 (i think) i think i had 18 original, read the tome, 19, equipped shruppak plate, 20.
Constitution: (not that it really matters) 20
Grand Mastery in Flails and War Hammers
Mastery in "Two Weapon Style"
Primary Weapon: Flail of Ages +5
Off-Hand Weapon: Crom Faeyr
EDIT:
Re-clarification of question as requested:::
unkinhead said:
The question is assuming best case scenario for everything...Meaning an acceptable response would be:FatalApocalypse said:
There's stuff missing in your question; the kits and other equipments than weapons. To really know the best 'weapon' setup, you need to consider the classes and races and equipments and such, even abilities.
I haven't been through TOB enough to remember all the exact weapons/items names used, but favorite combos for devastation always were an Elf Kensaï on Kaï and stuff with Long Sword/Katana, and Half-Orcs of various classes using Flail/War Hammer. Always Haste/Bless/Chant before big brawls of course.
I know that doesn't answer the 'statistically' part of your question either, so I'll just tell you; go with the Elven Kensaï and pick between Long Swords/Katana/Scimitars. It's better to grow only one at first along 2 weapon fighting, then add a second one once 2 weapon is fully masterized.
Spiders Bane + Short Sword is the best combo for Druid - two short sword +2 is best for blackguard paladin, however : Two short sword +2 with a blackguard is more effective than spiders bane + short sword for the druid, therefore, Two Short Sword +2 with blackguard is the best overall weapon setup in the game...
Obviously those weapons are complete BS, but hopefully that makes sense...You can assume that you have max everything (if possible). IE; you can assume that dexterity is allowed to be at 21 due to being an elf, reading the tome, and having shruppak plate, etc. Or at least give that info in the answer.
I want to know the best overall weapon setup for any class/setup that beats any other overall setup...Hopefully thats more clear.
Essentially, as long as the setup is possible in game, its possible in this question scenario.
Comments
Or an old SoA trick.... Belm+2 and Kundane+2.
Then, Foebane+5 and any +4 shield.
Defender of Eastheaven+3 and Flail of Ages+5, With Use Any Item, Jan Jansen's armor, a Hardiness buff and the evil power from Ascension besides Ronarch Horn and the Belt of Inert Barrier
This entire topic is dependent on character class and stats as well as what (if any) immunities are required at the time. Crom Fayer is far less beneficial to a Cleric or Paladin than it is to someone who can't self-buff strength to 25 naturally. Similarly only classes with UAI can use the Scarlet Ninja-to as an offhand.
It seems like there are 2 effects called "Free Action"
the One, granted by the spell and flail of ages only prevents future effects.
and Two, granted by the ring of free action etc, removes all, and then prevents any future effects.
Actually, i think the spell is type two, but for some reason it doesn't remove haste/positive movement. Because the spell does remove past movement debuffs.
I know the ring of free action actually has a clause that says something a long the lines of: "This removes all thing that adjust movement, this includes any haste spell..." something like that...And with that ring you can't have both at the same time.
I haven't been through TOB enough to remember all the exact weapons/items names used, but favorite combos for devastation always were an Elf Kensaï on Kaï and stuff with Long Sword/Katana, and Half-Orcs of various classes using Flail/War Hammer. Always Haste/Bless/Chant before big brawls of course.
I know that doesn't answer the 'statistically' part of your question either, so I'll just tell you; go with the Elven Kensaï and pick between Long Swords/Katana/Scimitars. It's better to grow only one at first along 2 weapon fighting, then add a second one once 2 weapon is fully masterized.
Edit; Oh, unless your characters are chipmunks or you're just not good at directing battles, don't bother with shields. Just don't.
Spiders Bane + Short Sword is the best combo for Druid - two short sword +2 is best for blackguard paladin, however : Two short sword +2 with a blackguard is more effective than spiders bane + short sword for the druid, therefore, Two Short Sword +2 with blackguard is the best overall weapon setup in the game...
Obviously those weapons are complete BS, but hopefully that makes sense...You can assume that you have max everything (if possible). IE; you can assume that dexterity is allowed to be at 21 due to being an elf, reading the tome, and having shruppak plate, etc. Or at least give that info in the answer.
I want to know the best overall weapon setup for any class/setup that beats any other overall setup...Hopefully thats more clear.
Essentially, as long as the setup is possible in game, its possible in this question scenario.
Speed weapons (belm, kundane, scarlet ninja-to) in the off hand offer the best damage. The best possible unbuffed strength is 24 (half orc, evil trial, book, lum, deck).
A half orc evil vanilla fighter with crom faeyr and belm would deal, specializing in both with the gauntlets of extraordinary specialization
4 x 30 (13+14+2+2) + 1 x 24.5 (4.5+2+2+14+2) = 144.5 or 289 with improved haste
Flail of ages +5 and belm
4 x 35.5 (19.5+12+2+2) + 1 x 22.5 (4.5+12+2+2+2) = 164.5 no improved haste possible
Club of detonation +5 and belm
4 x 34 (18+12+2+2) + 1 x 22.5 = 158.5 or 317 with improved haste (plus 3.5/7 or 7/14 including the fireball with save made/save failed)
Since all set ups have the same number of attacks per round, any added damage (grand mastery, kensei, berserking, etc.) would be a wash without improved haste. A kensei would lose a half attack due to the gloves, but in reality a fighter is going to have grand mastery with their main weapon anyway. A non half orc non evil fighter (max str 21, likely 22 with belt) would have a much higher relative gain from using crom faeyr, equaling that set up with the club sans fireball, though the flail would still come out ahead a little without improved haste.
I didn't include HLAs in the calculation. I'm fairly certain you can whirlwind with the flail, but with the other set ups under improved haste you can critical strike. Since all of these main hand weapons rely on elemental damage whirlwind is more effective than critical strike without improved haste. The damage numbers are actually slightly incorrect, as you need to account for base critical chance, but it shouldn't make a huge difference. Crom faeyr set up has +1 thac0.
There are a number of other factors that might influence a "best" set up, but they are either hard to include in a damage calculation (resistances, AC, chance and effect of instant kill, etc.) or nearly impossible to compare directly (immunities, special abilities, fire-balling allies, etc.). I'm fairly certain that fire resistance is somewhat more common than other types, but I don't have any numbers.
A question occurred to me writing this- when dual wielding are you capped at 4 main hand attacks? With a speed weapon, grand mastery, and the super special gauntlets you have 4.5 main hand attacks. I assume that you always get 1 off hand no matter what, so the attack cap affects the main only, but I could be wrong.
Off-hand the best is Scarlet Ninja-to, then Belm, then Kundane, as an extra swing will generally make up for even the lack of 25 strength from Crom Freyr. If you are using GWW, the best combo is easily Main hand Flail of Ages +5 (it has roughly 7-8 higher damage per swing than the next option, but does not allow haste), off hnad Crom Freyr for the strength buff.
Kensai and Swashbuckler bonuses apply to all of the weapons the same, so it really comes down to whether you are relying on Improved Haste or GWW to hit 10 attacks per round. If you are using GWW, then always Flail of Ages +5 (even more than any 2 hander except maybe Ravager +6 which does instant death to non-bosses).
In a solo playthrough the best would be a F/M/T with Foebane +5 offhand Scarlet Ninja-to if you go evil I believe, because then you can have 18 +1 (tome) +1 (Lum the Mad) +2 (Hell trial) for a total of 22 unbuffed strength, at which point I think Foebane (2d4+5 +6 vs many enemies +1d4 life drain) will be more useful than Crom Freyr (2d4+3 +5 electrical). They average the same damage per swing without counting the +6 from Foebane, which offsets the 4 damage more per swing due to the extra 3 str.
FOA +4 is only 1D6+4 +4 which I think is actually weaker than Crom Freyr but the slow can be devastating. FOA only outpaces everything else when it goes to +5, but then you need to exploit to get improved haste.
So i suppose in theory the best is F/M/T --- Flail of Ages +5 (with exploit), Offhand: Scarlet-Ninja-to
Correct?
Also i think it was intentional to make it so you could haste first, but perhaps not, either way, its a huge design flaw. It doesn't make sense to let the +4 better than the +5.
It really should be that either:
+5 doesn't get free action; it doesn't prevent haste, etc.
Therefore i have no problems using that exploit as that is how it should have been done.
Obviously no player prefers the benefit of "Free Action" over Damage Output. There is a ring and a cleric spell for that.
Bah, I'm out of this conversation. In a second someone's going to suggest dualling a Kensai to thief at level 24 and my will to live will evaporate.
I know it's not higher on the damage output but Axe of the Unyielding +5 or Ravager +6 offers instant death chance.
With belm offhand and improved haste Axe gets more attacks, at least adding up over a few rounds.
Or have they been nerfed in EE? haven't got that far yet. Still in the terrifying underdark.
For pure damage per swing, nothing will beat a max level Kensai but the disadvantages are huge... The F/M/T would have about 4? less damage per swing after items are taken into account but will have all of the protections of a mage plus if you remove the level cap a chain contingency 3x horrid wilting in there
Also the Kensai can't keep improved haste while doing critical strikes, which is a lot more damage than the bonus from Kensai alone.
But then again, if we are allowing Improved Haste and FoA+5, I think it'll be hard to beat. I personally think it's an exploit and it's also a good way to balance FoA+5. Otherwise the weapon is absurdly overpowered. And why not? Certainly a kensai can be affected by Improved Haste and a kensai can use Critical Strike. Or are we comparing them without a party?
With a party the math is very easy... Kensai (highest damage bonus), 25 strength (potion or crom freyr off hand for highest per hit bonus), Critical Strikes, Improved Haste, Grand Master would be the highest damage per hit with FOA+5.
Without cheating the Improved Haste limitation, I think Club of Detonation is the best for non-fire immune, Daystar might be the best vs. undead now, and Foebane for resistant to Fire. Crom Freyr if you want blunt instead of slashing for fire immune.
Then you dualclass the Kensai at 24 to thief and get UAI
Its pretty silly though because this game really doesn't need to be crunched that much for the super top end, because at epic levels, hit points do not allow for prolonged fights so it really comes down to whether you can bring the enemy down in one round or two rounds. Its rare that you will notice the difference between 26 and 28 damage a hit...
For a kensai, I'd go with Foebane +5 / Belm (half-orc with 24 str) or with Foebane +5 / Crom Faeyr if Belm can't hit. For someone with lower strength, perhaps Crom Faeyr / Belm is the answer. Remember that Foebane always deals damage from the drain on top of the normal damage, and that this helps heal up some of that damage you'll be taking from being in the middle of the fight.
I don't remember if the drain is 1d4 or just 4. I think it's 4. But in the worst case, you'll get 8d4 HP per round just from Foebane (ignoring critical misses, but anyway).
Oh, and I don't even want to think about the crazy damage that setup will deal to Foebane's chosen enemies.
FoA + speedweaon in bg2 originaly it wasn't blocking by free action
crom + speedweapon = not for cleric obv
avanguardal + speedweapon
club of detonation + speedweapon
celestial fury + speedweapon only +3 but stunnnig every second is probably too good
staff of ram for shapeshifter/fighter bugged for 5apr/10apr
carsomyr if you have a paladin
Monk fist is at best 1d20 + 4 + flaming fist right? That pretty much makes it just about on par with flail of ages plus you can put scarlet ninja-to in the off hand for max attacks earlier.
Still have to start outfitting my simulacrum a with black blade
*giggles*