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Simulacrum Questions

HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
in General Discussion (Spoiler Warning!)
I have just used Simulacrum for the first time, and was pretty amazed by how good it is, so good in fact that I wonder if this is an exploit/bug, or intended. I also have a few general questions about these illusion type spells...

I am playing BG 2 Vanilla (GoG) with BG2 Fixpack, no other mods.

1) It seems to duplicate equipped items, like my Simulacrum managed to stun enemies with Celestial Fury. That seems amazing. But what's more crazy is that I can apparently use lower level spells without exhausting the main character's spellbook! And what's even more crazy than that is that I can use charged items without using them up for the main toon! That seems kinda abusive... I haven't tried this yet, but I can imagine just equipping the most OP scrolls (Timestop?) in the game and using them without losing them over and over, which totally ignores the fact that the Simulacrum only has spells equivalent to 60% of xp of the character.

2) Do Simulacrum, Project Image and Mislead count towards the summon limit?

3) Lore-wise, am I right in understanding that Project Image and Mislead are kinda opposites, in that Mislead creates a decoy, which can't do much except move, whilst the real wizard is allowed to move around, cast spells etc, and the decoy can be destroyed or dispelled. Project Image creates a illusion of the wizard that can move around and cast spells, but his physical body stays behind, and cannot move or do anything.

4) Are the any changes to how these spells work in BG 2 EE?
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Comments

  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    edited January 2014
    1) It's not a question. But yes, it works like that.

    2) No.

    3) Kind of yes.

    4) No, except that some exploits have been fixed. Like Charging a CC with 3 Project Images/Simulacrums and have all the 3 of them active, now you can have just 1 at the time per kind.

    EDIT: there's an option in SCS that doesn't allow the simulacrums/projected images to use items in the quick slots.
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    Simulacrums (or simulacra to be pedantic) are indeed pretty open to abuse. While Project image is essentially a way to multiply your mage's spellbook, Simulacrum lets you use all those scrolls and wands you've been saving up.

    Youve got all kinds of shenannigans you can get up to. Keep a Simulacrum sat out of range with a rod of resurrection and use it for instant free full heals. Use the Simmy to buff you with protection from magic/undead scrolls before fighting Liches/demiliches to avoid using up the scrolls.

    Project image is something I've only recently started using recently. It's cut down the amount I rest by about 60% - you can essentially go nuclear with an Image without depleting your spellbook. Project Image -> Image casts Timestop & unloads it's entire spellbook. And considering you get a decent number of level 7 spell slots for pure or dual mages it's pretty badass.
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    I guess my first question wasn't very clear, partly cos I forgot to ask it :D Which is:

    Is Simulacrum working as intended? Like roleplay/lore-wise, how is it justified that you can use scrolls without using them up? Does the spell really replicate all items temporarily, so for the duration of the spell, there are two Celestial Fury in the world?
  • MitchforkMitchfork Member Posts: 390
    1) Yeah, charged/one-use items and Simulacrum is one of the biggest cheeses in the game. Cast a Simulacrum with a Protection from Magic Scroll in your quickslot and enjoy infinite magic immunity for the rest of the game. In the original games you could even use a restoration spell on the Simulacrum to "restore" it to 100% XP and it would have the caster's full spellbook; not sure if this has been fixed for the Enhanced Editions. There's also some weirdness in determining the Simulacrum level when it's being cast by a Simulacrum- a level 32 Mage using Simulacrum creates a level 16 clone. If that clone creates a Simulacrum, then it will be level 24.

    I'm pretty sure that if you were going by the description of the spell as it is in tabletop gaming the Simulacrum would be born naked and the wizard would have to equip it. It's actually more like a golem that takes the form of the caster than an actual illusion and it has a permanent duration.

    2) Nope, and I believe that summons called by the Simulacrum also bypass the limit since they're not considered part of your party, but don't quote me on that.

    3) Pretty much. It's worth noting that the Baldur's Gate Mislead and Project Image spells are both significantly different from the 2e AD&D versions.

    4) Not sure, I haven't used them in BG2:EE for the most part because it's hard not to abuse them.
  • ChildofBhaal599ChildofBhaal599 Member Posts: 1,781
    wow, i never used this. I can promise you now I am likely not going to use it. this is one of the few things I can say pretty much for sure we can all call cheese. if i use it i will try to only use the spells and ignore the inventory.
  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    Mitchfork said:

    In the original games you could even use a restoration spell on the Simulacrum to "restore" it to 100% XP and it would have the caster's full spellbook; not sure if this has been fixed for the Enhanced Editions.

    Not exactly. Restoriation DOES restore the original level of the simulacrum (which is nothing less than a copy of the mage with a drain level effect), but you won't benefit from any new spells, since you didn't momorized them (you just have new empty slots).
    As regards a Sorcerer: he could A) restore his simulacrum, B) use Wish to rememorize the lost spells. BUT, sadly, Wish doesn't affect the simulacrum.
    So now, the only advantage of restoring the copy would be to have more hp/thac0/proficiencies/caster level/whatever.
  • MitchforkMitchfork Member Posts: 390
    Ah, thanks. I was sure I was getting something wrong there.
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    Does anyone know how Contingency interacts with the sim/image? I remember casting Chain Contingency with my image and having it trigger from my frozen body instead (this was non EE BG2). It was generally buggy anyways so I never used it.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    edited January 2014
    This is kinda a weird question. Can a simulacrum cast simulacrum? and can it be put in a chain contingency?


    edit: just tested it. Not only can a simulacrum cast simulacrum, but the simulacrum of a simulacrum can cast simulacrum.... Imoens everywhere!
  • SkaffenSkaffen Member Posts: 709
    Heindrich1988 said:

    I guess my first question wasn't very clear, partly cos I forgot to ask it :D Which is:

    Is Simulacrum working as intended? Like roleplay/lore-wise, how is it justified that you can use scrolls without using them up? Does the spell really replicate all items temporarily, so for the duration of the spell, there are two Celestial Fury in the world?

    No, definetely not. It's made of snow plus a body part of the duplicated creature. While it's correct that it has it's own pool of spells (unlike projected image which should draw from the caster) the level is much higher than it should be (plus casting time is ridiculously fast, this is more of a ritual type of spell).

    From the 2nd edition Players Handbook:

    -----
    Simulacrum (Illusion/Phantasm)
    Range: Touch
    Duration: Permanent
    Area of Effect: 1 creature
    Components: V, S, M
    Casting Time: Special
    Saving Throw: None

    By means of this spell, the wizard is able to create a duplicate of any creature. The duplicate appears to be exactly the same as the original, but there are differences: The simulacrum has only 51% to 60% (50% + 1d10%) of the hit points of the real creature, there are personality differences, there are areas of knowledge that the duplicate does not have, and a detect magic spell will instantly reveal it as a simulacrum, as will a true seeing spell. At all times the simulacrum remains under the absolute command of the wizard who created it. No special telepathic link exists, so command must be exercised in some other manner. The spell creates the form of the creature, but it is only a zombielike creation. A reincarnation spell must be used to give the duplicate a vital force, and a limited wish spell must be used to empower the duplicate with 40% to 65% (35% + 5 to 30%) of the knowledge and personality of the original. The level of the simulacrum, if any, is from 20% to 50% of that of the original creature.

    The duplicate creature is formed from ice or snow. The spell is cast over the rough form and some piece of the creature to be duplicated must be placed inside the snow or ice. Additionally, the spell requires powdered ruby.

    The simulacrum has no ability to become more powerful; it cannot increase its level or abilities. If destroyed, it reverts to snow and melts into nothingness. Damage to the simulacrum can be repaired by a complex process requiring at least one day, 100 gp per hit point, and a fully equipped laboratory.
    -----

    Rather limited and a lot of effort... ;) I've been playing PnP AD&D for >25 years now but in all that time I have never once had a character in my party cast that spell. It's used as a good plot device in an adventure though, forgot the name since it's >20 years that I played it but I still remember that it was a cool surprise when we killed the villain and had him turn to snow! Had us quite stumped... ;)
  • SkaffenSkaffen Member Posts: 709
    Heindrich1988 said:


    2) Do Simulacrum, Project Image and Mislead count towards the summon limit?

    No, but the ultimate cheese is that the game doesn't check their summons vs. the summoning limit so in addition to the scroll duplication you mentioned above, you can (ab-)use them to spawn almost infinite monster mobs, especially if you equip it with e.g. the elemental staffs that can summon the fire or air elementals.

    Of course one death spell and your horde is gone... ;)
  • GamingFreakGamingFreak Member Posts: 639
    edited January 2014
    SpaceInvader said:

    Mitchfork said:

    In the original games you could even use a restoration spell on the Simulacrum to "restore" it to 100% XP and it would have the caster's full spellbook; not sure if this has been fixed for the Enhanced Editions.

    Not exactly. Restoriation DOES restore the original level of the simulacrum (which is nothing less than a copy of the mage with a drain level effect), but you won't benefit from any new spells, since you didn't momorized them (you just have new empty slots).
    As regards a Sorcerer: he could A) restore his simulacrum, B) use Wish to rememorize the lost spells. BUT, sadly, Wish doesn't affect the simulacrum.
    So now, the only advantage of restoring the copy would be to have more hp/thac0/proficiencies/caster level/whatever.
    pretty sure the biggest thing was to restore the caster level of the copy to get the most out of certain spells that are level dependant in power, but I might be remembering wrong.
  • That1DudeThat1Dude Member Posts: 19
    Yea since spells like skull trap and what not have damage based on caster level, so restoring a lv 16 simulacrum to a lv 32 would essentially double the amount of damage a lot of spells would do.
  • SkaffenSkaffen Member Posts: 709
    That1Dude said:

    Yea since spells like skull trap and what not have damage based on caster level, so restoring a lv 16 simulacrum to a lv 32 would essentially double the amount of damage a lot of spells would do.

    I think most spells cap at 20 if not explicitly stated otherwise. Pretty sure for skull trap in any case.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    Skaffen said:

    That1Dude said:

    Yea since spells like skull trap and what not have damage based on caster level, so restoring a lv 16 simulacrum to a lv 32 would essentially double the amount of damage a lot of spells would do.

    I think most spells cap at 20 if not explicitly stated otherwise. Pretty sure for skull trap in any case.
    oh man i jad no idea! thats kinda disappointing. I was so happy with my bards quick leveling for this reason.
  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    @GamingFreak yes, too. That's why I wrote "caster level" in the possible reasons ;)
  • moody_magemoody_mage Member Posts: 2,054
    How do people get rid of their Project Image once they've finished with it?
  • Montresor_SPMontresor_SP Member Posts: 2,208
    @decado Force-attack it. Select the rest of the NPCs, press F2, and click the image.
  • moody_magemoody_mage Member Posts: 2,054
    And if you are playing Solo?
  • Montresor_SPMontresor_SP Member Posts: 2,208
    edited January 2014
    Does the image have any memorized summoning spells? You could then instruct the summons to kill it. Or the image could commit suicide by Fireballing or Magic Missile'ing itself.

    Short of that, I think you have to wait. :-)
  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    @decado @Montresor_SP
    The trick is to make the projected image cast a Dispel Magic on itself.
    This way it will dissolve itself and you'll be ready to cast another one.
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    I recall reading that "second generation clones" i.e. Simulacra of Simulacra or Images of Images can send the game a bit odd (and cause crashes in vanilla), and can get around some of the limitations e.g. reduced level of Sims and inability to attack of Images.

    Test this at your own risk. And NO REFUNDS!
  • ChildofBhaal599ChildofBhaal599 Member Posts: 1,781
    So..... Jin gave up a body part then? lol :)
  • SerpionSerpion Member Posts: 67
    More fun is casting Nahal's Reckless Dweomers via simularcum and projected images :) In fact you could receive a lot of chaos at battlefield!
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    edited January 2014
    The one thing I want to know is if you dual Sarevok to a mage, do his simulacrums, and simulacrums within simulacrums within simulacrums, also have Deathbringer Assault?
    That would be incredible damage output pur second.
    or you can use Vhailor's Helm on him right? I really want to try this out now.
  • TheMadVikingTheMadViking Member Posts: 35
    edited January 2014
    @booinyoureyes

    I did some playtesting and found some interesting stuff. Yes, Deathbringer assault do transfer during a simulacrum. However due to a heavily modified game it doesn't recognize the damage in my game. The animation and the skill activate and deliver some damage, but not a whooping 200 as it used to do. I have no idea if it is meant to be this way or a mod have somehow tweaked it. I think it require further testing.

    However dualing Sarevok to a mage is a very good idea. He is a beast and I can only say; DO IT!!


    Here are the screenshots.
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    You don't need to dual sarevok to a mage to take advantage of Simulacrum. You could just give him Vhailor's Helm and get a free cast of it once daily.
  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    @TheMadViking
    Dude, you dualed at lvl21... Of course he is a beast, lol.
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