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Haer'Dalis has taught me something

kaffekoppenkaffekoppen Member Posts: 377
Bards aren't terrible at all. For years I've played this game and I've never seriously used a bard, ever. I think part of the blame rests with Garrick and the rest with me for not looking closely enough enough at the kits.

I wasn't really expecting him to perform well at all (it still kind of *looks* like a poor man's fighter with low level spells), but I'll admit it, I was wrong. It's also a more interesting class than most. I'm now thinking I might want a blade charname in the future.

I know this thread is kind of random. Just a bit of unexpected love for the bards from here.
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Comments

  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    I like Garrick and Eldoth but I still don't know what to do with a Blade. In the Black Pits my blade stands in the back and sings :S
    But seriously, there's no time to buff in there and I think blades really need to buff to be good.
  • SilverstarSilverstar Member Posts: 2,207
    edited January 2014

    Bards aren't terrible at all.

    Huh. I never thought Bards were terrible, but Blades I do. Apart from the bard song their functionality is being walking Identify scrolls (in my opinion) but that's not really true for that particular kit.

    The class overall is greatly underappreciated though, it's nice to see it getting some recognition for once.
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    I am prejudiced against bards cos... well, they're bards! They don't seem to belong on the battlefield! I think it's a very D&D thing to include them as an adventuring class, I am not aware of any other game where bards are a serious character class.
  • SilverstarSilverstar Member Posts: 2,207

    I think it's a very D&D thing to include them as an adventuring class, I am not aware of any other game where bards are a serious character class.

    They're also prominent in the Wizardry games. Oh how I'd love a Wizardry 8:EE...
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    Maximum damage from offensive spin plus extra attack can not be useless!!!!
    Defensive spin=TEN AC bonus! In BG1 what other character can get to -7 AC? Nobody!
    Plus your skull trap and fireball will destroy things in the early game since they level up faster
  • SilverstarSilverstar Member Posts: 2,207

    In BG1 what other character can get to -7 AC? Nobody!

    image
  • kaffekoppenkaffekoppen Member Posts: 377
    edited January 2014
    @Silverstar: Pick your favorite bard kit! The point is just that I underestimated the class overall because it's a jack of all trades and I honestly thought that meant they weren't good at anything. But I'm just seeing that in practice, the flexibility is really valuable.

    Bards are also rather useful at high levels. Spike traps, UAI and Enhanced Bard Song? Yes please!

    @The discussion about AC in BG1: I'm sure I had Kagain at lower than -10 AC permanently, but I can't remember exactly how much.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    bah, shields are lame
  • kaffekoppenkaffekoppen Member Posts: 377
    Well, defensive spin is still good. I generally use offensive spin more though.
  • SilverstarSilverstar Member Posts: 2,207

    @Silverstar: Pick your favorite bard kit!

    Hmm. Tough one. Either regular Bard (people will go :O reading that) or Skald. I like the Skald due to being Norwegian (viking bards ftw!) but they also have a pretty kickass bard song. The regular bard song from unkitted Bard can also be reaaaal handy when enemies start spamming fear spells though.
  • kaffekoppenkaffekoppen Member Posts: 377
    edited January 2014
    The crappy part about Skalds (I live quite close to Norway, by the way :) ) is that Enhanced Bard Song pretty much does the same thing. There's just a whole game until level 24 or whenever it is they start gaining HLAs, and all that time the Skald song is amazing. After that, well, maybe you don't even need to waste a HLA getting the enhanced song.

    In any case, the lore and pick pockets penalties are really non-issues due to potions of master thievery stacking, and because lore will be high enough anyway.
  • MitchforkMitchfork Member Posts: 390
    I actually just started a Blade playthrough in BG1 last night. Haven't gotten very far though, partly because I was deciding whether or not to install Rogue Rebalancing. It looks like it really improves the Bard (and Blade) classes. My summary of Blade changes:

    + Default Bard Song is improved
    + Bards can now progress to level 8 spell memorization and can memorize more spells per spell level
    + Blades start with 3 pips in Two-Weapon style
    + Blades get the new ability "Weapons Display"- opponents must save vs. spell or suffer morale failure, and allies get bonus to hit rolls
    + Blades get Whirlwind as an HLA pick
    + Scribe Scrolls HLA is way better, allowing you to scribe any spell that you have memorized

    o Huge changes to HLA's as a whole that fit Bards better, but may not be more powerful

    - No Use Any Item
    - Blades can't take Enhanced Bard Song to cancel one of their kit drawbacks

    It really looks like it buffs Blades considerably- Whirlwind and the improved spellbook look insane, they were already mini-Mages but now they're only missing the few useful level 9 spells. Bards don't even miss UAI that much since they've already got access to scrolls, wands, any weapon type, etc. Really looking forward to installing this.
  • SilverstarSilverstar Member Posts: 2,207
    Does bard song break Invisibility? If not I can see even Jester being somewhat useful...
  • kaffekoppenkaffekoppen Member Posts: 377
    edited January 2014
    Good question!

    @Mitchfork: I think it's a good move that blades can't take Enhanced Bard Song. I think that's what makes blades best currently (at ToB level). With one HLA their only significant drawback is gone. Overall the rebalancing looks quite sensible. I'm not sure how it works out with level 8 spells. Could be quite crazy actually. Even level 6 spells are very powerful (PfMW & Improved Haste alone are amazing).
  • MitchforkMitchfork Member Posts: 390

    Does bard song break Invisibility? If not I can see even Jester being somewhat useful...

    I believe that the bard songs don't break Invisibility (being similar to the Cleric's Turn Undead or the Thief's Detect Traps).

    @kaffekoppen Yeah, that's always kind of bugged me even though I haven't played Bard PC's. Seems like a lot of the HLA tables could have used refinement, but they just didn't have time during the ToB release cycle.
  • ThrasymachusThrasymachus Member Posts: 880
    Blades are awesome! One of my three favourite classes/kits.

    The regular bard song from unkitted Bard can also be reaaaal handy when enemies start spamming fear spells though.

    Blades get the regular bard song.
  • syllogsyllog Member Posts: 158
    nano said:

    I like Garrick and Eldoth but I still don't know what to do with a Blade. In the Black Pits my blade stands in the back and sings :S
    But seriously, there's no time to buff in there and I think blades really need to buff to be good.

    @nano
    You buff before you enter the pits.
    It's not like you don't know you're about to fight. You buff then talk to Baeloth. ("irl" you'd imagine you were buffing just outside the gates of the arena.)
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    edited January 2014
    @mitchfork
    Rogue Rebalancing is amazing! I use it too. It makes the three pips in dual wield automatic for blades, which leaves so many proficiencies open. You can use any of those awesome items no one else has.

    Also blades actually do get use any item, which is nice for scarlet ninja to and for Carsomyr when you want a major dispel. My blade is currently dual wielding scarlet ninja to in the offhand and celestial fury in his main hand.

    Elven chainmail or melodic chain and you get good AC. But the spins are what make him awesome. The -10 to AC with defensive spin makes him an excellent tank. My blade can get to -24 AC with the defensive spin right now. Granted it stops movement, but he can just sit and attack and cast spells with no interruption. All of this plus mirror image, plus blur, plus stoneskin, plus protection from magical weapons=tank.

    Offensive spin kills everything. With a strength item and the gauntlets that add 2 thac0 and 1 damage, he hits often (4.5 attacks) with added 2 to thac0 and 2 to damage from the spin... and all attacks do MAXIMUM damage... so awesome.

    Plus the harps that you can get are amazingly useful and no one else can use them other than a super high level thief with Use Any Item

    Plus he can even use the Robe of Vecna or Ring of Acuity. 20d6 skull traps with like 1 second casting times while level 13 wizards are still using their little 10d6 fireball? Gimme
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    I meant bp2, you can't preburf there. The only thing you can use are contingencies in the bedroom (why did I have to phrase it like that? oh well I'm not changing it)
  • TwaniTwani Member Posts: 640
    I love mocking Garrick and Eldoth. I hold a special place for parties with them and Skie around. They're so pointless and tend to die horribly in BG1 with SCS (mostly because I figure if I'm going that route, I might as well bring along other fonts of uselessness, like Quayle and Tiax). But so fun!

    Haer'Dalis, though, is pretty darn awesome. Part of that is personality (where does he get around referring to my character as his? Pretty brave of him.). Part of it is that the Blade is a pretty fun kit. If only he had some more hitpoints... he sort of falls over when things look at him funny. But he's a blast to play.

    I generally always thought if I fell in to the BG world, I'd probably end up a Bard, so I like the class. You can just use them as walking identifying scrolls who sing occasionally, that's true: and, honestly, in my last playthrough of BG, that's basically what I used Garrick for. And the identification and song are indeed awesome. But blades spins? Pretty darn cool as well. One of my favorite kits.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    nano said:

    I meant bp2, you can't preburf there. The only thing you can use are contingencies in the bedroom (why did I have to phrase it like that? oh well I'm not changing it)

    Flesh to Stone for Keldorn
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    I was really sad when I found out you can't actually equip the harps to boost your bard song. I think that would be really cool rather than the bard-only wands we have now.
  • kaffekoppenkaffekoppen Member Posts: 377
    Twani said:


    Haer'Dalis, though, is pretty darn awesome. Part of that is personality (where does he get around referring to my character as his? Pretty brave of him.). Part of it is that the Blade is a pretty fun kit. If only he had some more hitpoints... he sort of falls over when things look at him funny. But he's a blast to play.

    Yeah, Haer'Dalis' HPs... I think they could have made him just a tad stronger there. Not as big of a deal for a PC bard though.
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632

    nano said:

    I meant bp2, you can't preburf there. The only thing you can use are contingencies in the bedroom (why did I have to phrase it like that? oh well I'm not changing it)

    Flesh to Stone for Keldorn
    Spell trigger: spell thrust, spell thrust, spell thrust
    and after a little while, Ruby Ray of Reversal
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    and let me tell you, Chill Touch does not go over well. nor does shocking grasp. finger of death, maybe.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    nano said:

    nano said:

    I meant bp2, you can't preburf there. The only thing you can use are contingencies in the bedroom (why did I have to phrase it like that? oh well I'm not changing it)

    Flesh to Stone for Keldorn
    Spell trigger: spell thrust, spell thrust, spell thrust
    and after a little while, Ruby Ray of Reversal
    Minor spell sequencer: Grease + Shocking Grasp

    Spell Sequencer: stoneskin (always use protection first) + enchant weapon + spell thrust

    If HP drops below 50%: Contingency Flesh to Stone + Slow

    Just watch out for Wild Surge: Enfeeblement or Haste

    In case your Stoneskin accidentaly breaks: Spell Trigger Invisibilty + Improved Haste +Shadow Door

    :O
  • SilverstarSilverstar Member Posts: 2,207
    nano said:

    and let me tell you, Chill Touch does not go over well. nor does shocking grasp. finger of death, maybe.

    How about Ghoul Touch? Surely the paralyzing effect might be handy...
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164

    Twani said:


    Haer'Dalis, though, is pretty darn awesome. Part of that is personality (where does he get around referring to my character as his? Pretty brave of him.). Part of it is that the Blade is a pretty fun kit. If only he had some more hitpoints... he sort of falls over when things look at him funny. But he's a blast to play.

    Yeah, Haer'Dalis' HPs... I think they could have made him just a tad stronger there. Not as big of a deal for a PC bard though.
    I'd give him the girdle of fortitude... which may also work well in the above situation ;P
  • HandofTyrHandofTyr Member Posts: 106

    Plus he can even use the Robe of Vecna or Ring of Acuity. 20d6 skull traps with like 1 second casting times while level 13 wizards are still using their little 10d6 fireball? Gimme

    This confuses me. You need UAI to use the robes of vecna and ring of acuity, right? At which point the mage is hitting level 18. Also, at bard level 20 a mage of roughly equivalent exp would be level 16, not 13. I feel like I'm missing something. Is the mod affecting something?

  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    HandofTyr said:

    Plus he can even use the Robe of Vecna or Ring of Acuity. 20d6 skull traps with like 1 second casting times while level 13 wizards are still using their little 10d6 fireball? Gimme

    This confuses me. You need UAI to use the robes of vecna and ring of acuity, right? At which point the mage is hitting level 18. Also, at bard level 20 a mage of roughly equivalent exp would be level 16, not 13. I feel like I'm missing something. Is the mod affecting something?

    NPCs tend to be lower in experience than your PC. I imported him from BG1 so he came with 161,000 XP and when my Neera joined she was fairly low in level (took me awhile to find her) and Imoen is way behind unfortunately :(

    Yes, and Bards get UAI as a HLA at level 25 I believe. So the skull trap wouldn't be that fast but it does do significantly more damage than a mages for most of SoA
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