Blades can tank dragons better than just about any other class. Defensive spin nullifies wing buffet, along with stone skin and mirror image to go toe to toe with them.
Plus he can even use the Robe of Vecna or Ring of Acuity. 20d6 skull traps with like 1 second casting times while level 13 wizards are still using their little 10d6 fireball? Gimme
You'd do 20d6 damage with a skull trap at level 20 as a bard. At 2,200,000 xp (the minimum XP needed for that bard level) you'd be level 15 as a mage and pretty close (50,000xp away) to being level 16. Thats a difference of 4d6 damage (for a level 16 mage). But a mage at level 15 gets access to level 7 spells. Meaning they can prepare a Spell Sequencer and throw down 3 Skull Traps instantly.
@booinyoureyes and who could forget Viconia's favorite: Spell Trigger: hold person, domination, Khelben "Blackstaff"'s Warding Whip okay, okay, I'll stop
Main features about bards : - BG1 : very fragile at the beginning (low HP, no helmet = instant death in case of critical), a lot less at the end (stoneskin, mirror image). Useless in melee at the beginning (too risky, low thaco, not able to dual wield, no excpetional strength), very strong at the end (dual wielding, 19 str, offensive spin) Also, the ability to use wands is godly in BG1 and pickpocket is very powerful (having access early to the free action ring and 2 +3 scimitar just breaks the game)
- BG2 : pre HLA they are very good : They are not very far behing fighters (offensive spin + 19 str + dual wield) and on par with mages (roughly same spells, less spell/day, more caster levels) post HLA they start to lag behind fighters and mages but UAI/spike traps gives them extra flavour.
Overall, while they are very far from being as powerful as a multi fighter/mage (which are ridiculously powerful), they can be very fun AND useful.
What i like with them is you actually have to use all their feats to make them strong. If you just use melee, they are weak. If you just use arcane they are weak.
On the opposite as a fighter mage you basically can destroy all opponents without breaking a sweat which is rather bland.
Haer'Dalis, though, is pretty darn awesome. Part of that is personality (where does he get around referring to my character as his? Pretty brave of him.). Part of it is that the Blade is a pretty fun kit. If only he had some more hitpoints... he sort of falls over when things look at him funny. But he's a blast to play.
Yeah, Haer'Dalis' HPs... I think they could have made him just a tad stronger there. Not as big of a deal for a PC bard though.
Not really. Haer is the best tank in SOA and virtually immortal in TOB. HIs low HP is meaningless if he's not getting hit. Besides, you just give him the fort belt, contingency 50% health: Tenser, etc. Being able to cast spells/use items in defensive spin is great.
Haer'dalis is just brokenly OP in a number ways first being his Tiefling resistances and sword thaco bonus. If you wait to till lvl 15 to grab him he'll have two pips in longswords and shortswords. He levels up sooo fast so you can abuse his caster level in many ways. I also love how he makes Keldorn virtually obsolete once he gets UAI and enhanced bard song is just silly if you know how to exploit it (see: mislead).
Really recommend rogue rebalancing as it nerfs Blade's silly OP bard song exploits, but gives them more interesting HLAs and up to level 8 spells (as per PnP).
Nope, the best tank is my dwarven defender, with 90 % physical resistance with defensive stance (50% for 1 turn-20% at level 20 from kit and 20 % from defender of easthaven)
I don't think Haer'dalis is the best SoA tank, but I do think he is one of the most underestimated characters in the game. He's a very useful jack-of-all-trades: his high level will overcome his blade's lore penalty, he have very decent Pickpocket, his Enhanced Bard Song is really useful and makes your party immune to Stun, Confusion, Charm and Fear in addition to the AC, THAC0 and damage bonuses, and he can use the Aslyferund Elven Chain which improves his own AC, as well as cast up to level 6 mage spells (I find Protection from magical weapons and Mislead the most useful for Blades). The rogue skill Use Any Item will greatly improve his weapon wielding ability and versatility.
By the end of BG II, and especially in ToB, he can be an immensely kickass character. He can ease in close combat as he gets higher in level, and Blade level incredibly fast. His low constitution is irrelevant as Girdle of fortitude + stoneskin can toughen anyone up, and defensive spin is an excellent ability, allowing him to throw spells in the heat of the battle (Magic missiles, the best Melf Minute Meteor user, high Skull Trap damage) before closing in to melee with offensive spin, while being virtually immune to physical damage as he rarely get hit, even with insane ToB enemies THAC0.
Edit: Installed Rogue Rebalancing, I'm truly impressed by the new possibilities the mod offers, will roll a blade for sure.
Overall, while they are very far from being as powerful as a multi fighter/mage (which are ridiculously powerful), they can be very fun AND useful.
There's one thing they have though that fighter/mages do not have: Enhanced Bard Song. If you a couple of strong melee in addition to Haer'Dalis like I do currently in my team, that bonus is very powerful indeed.
Overall, while they are very far from being as powerful as a multi fighter/mage (which are ridiculously powerful), they can be very fun AND useful.
What i like with them is you actually have to use all their feats to make them strong. If you just use melee, they are weak. If you just use arcane they are weak.
On the opposite as a fighter mage you basically can destroy all opponents without breaking a sweat which is rather bland.
Yeah, I like bards a lot mechanically. RP wise being a performer/entertainer just never does it for me as my main. (There is the 2e Riddlemaster kit, which is an awesome variant of Bard (basically you play a super-intelligent "Riddler" style character who gets a bonus to everything because he's so smart, but don't sing or have legend lore. [actually Bards had ALL the interesting/well-designed kits in 2e]) Still... not getting higher levels spells... I mean from a RP perspective how can one pass up on understanding how to control the elements of the universe. I always have to end up a mage with some dual for flare.
Edit: Installed Rogue Rebalancing, I'm truly impressed by the new possibilities the mod offers, will roll a blade for sure.
Tip: Spell Trigger —> Improved Haste + Stoneskin/PfMW/Mirror Image —> Tenser's Transformation. Make it in exactly this order, because if you do it with Tenser's first, you won't be able to get other benefits (apparently they don't go simultaneously).
Overall, while they are very far from being as powerful as a multi fighter/mage (which are ridiculously powerful), they can be very fun AND useful.
What i like with them is you actually have to use all their feats to make them strong. If you just use melee, they are weak. If you just use arcane they are weak.
On the opposite as a fighter mage you basically can destroy all opponents without breaking a sweat which is rather bland.
Still... not getting higher levels spells... I mean from a RP perspective how can one pass up on understanding how to control the elements of the universe. I always have to end up a mage with some dual for flare.
What is so good about Bards? They level fast, like Thieves, and so does their spell level! I would never trade a Blade for a Fighter/Mage especially since their Offensive Spin was nerfed/fixed. But I would definitely include one in a balanced party. Mislead Bards singing Enhanced Bard Song does wonders!
This isn't as applicable to Haer'Dalis, but I've found myself needing to be extremely careful with defensive spin in BG1 blade playing. At least half a dozen times over various levels (at least twice I can remember 8+) I tried activating defensive spin to tank up and ended up dying because I couldn't run away when the baddies started hurting me anyway. Basically the AC is nice, but the rooting in place can be lethal.
Ah yes, the bird stuff. And the whistling! The infernal whistling!
That said, I just got Enhanced Bard Song on him. It's... overpowered. Korgan's AC reaches -20 with it. I'm still in SoA so he doesn't exactly get hit much.
Haer'Dalis is a great character for many reasons, not the least of which is because that his class has a lot of fun options. With all of his arcane spells, he can outperform most fighters, although he requires a bit more micromanagement than someone like Valygar who ultimately serves the same purpose of hit-and-run doom. Of course Haer'Dalis has the edge of being able to cast some offensive spells for when his weapons won't do the job, but nothing much to eclipse the likes of Edwin. Fun though, I agree. Glad to see he is getting used rather than listening to these obsolete expostulations about the non-issue of having a single-digit constitution score. :P
Nope, the best tank is my dwarven defender, with 90 % physical resistance with defensive stance (50% for 1 turn-20% at level 20 from kit and 20 % from defender of easthaven)
Not taking any damage is better than taking some. With spells like Protection from Magic Weapons, Stoneskin, Mirror Images, Blur, and Improved Invisibility (as well as his Defensive Stance) Haer'Dalis is going to be difficult to hit much less hurt.
It's high-maintenance tanking that can't be sustained for very long though, much unlike the Dwarven Defender (who has 3-4 times as many HP as well), but it's really only fair that the DD has better tanking ability since that's all the class really does.
I love having my blade as much for his spellcasting. Even though he can't get past level 6, those spells never become obsolete. Improved Haste? Pierce Magic? Breach? Skull Trap? Remove Magic? There are lots of goodies that I don't mind having on more than one character.
obsolete expostulations about the non-issue of having a single-digit constitution score. :P
It's not exactly unnoticable that he has low HP, but no it's not a disaster. It's just that he absolutely must be protected all the time or stay out of melee range.
I find the concept of "tanking" in the IE games a bit mind-boggling. Apart from Morte's "taunt" (Cacophony of Insults I think?) in Torment, there really is no such thing; the enemies will chase after whatever target they set their mind to. What's the secret trick? Initiate combat with only the "tank" visible to the enemy? Casting of Invisibility and the like to force target switching? I'm genuinely curious.
That's pretty much all it is. That's why you don't shove your mage through the door first. Mostly you can get them to attack whoever you want.
It's particularly frustrating though when you are attacked the second you enter an area because then it's hard to tank. For example, enter the graveyard and get attacked by vampires. Can you get them to attack the ones with Negative Plane Protection? Of course not!
Oh, and I just have to say this: Level drain is one of the most annoying game mechanics I have ever seen. I think for a certain fight someone just sat down and thought "how can I make the player throw the keyboard out of the window? Oh, I know, let's take away their only cleric and level drain everyone!"
It's particularly frustrating though when you are attacked the second you enter an area because then it's hard to tank. For example, enter the graveyard and get attacked by vampires. Can you get them to attack the ones with Negative Plane Protection? Of course not!
This was truly awful in the ship of Balduran in the TotSC content. Go up a staircase and your party members are thrown every which way, usually putting your 5/6 slot Mages in the middle of packs of Wolfweres. Thankfully you can pull the monsters into ambushes now that they can go between area transitions, but that didn't work in the vanilla game.
That's the improved AI at work, I think... At least in SCS, vampires never go for NPP'd targets if they can help it, and enemies tend to prioritize low health targets, namely mages. I think the vanilla AI likes mages too, but it's bad at spotting when PfMW is up and will beat on it all day. I actually like the smart AI, I want it to play as well as it can and make good moves.
Even though the game lacks a taunt skill you can use the AI to hold aggro. As you know it prioritizes low HP and also characters in melee over ranged, so someone like Nalia in melee range can hold the attention of enemies all day. Just don't use PfMW or she will lose aggro (can be useful if you need to switch though).
IIRC you don't have to send in your entire party for the ship of Balduran. I usually send in the fighters alone and when they need a spell cast they yell down the stairs for a mage.
I suppose it improves the realism but what's the point in a high HP, low AC tank if enemies invariably attack everyone else first? I know that most people love all the defensive buffs but I personally find it excrutiatingly boring to keep them up all the time. I'd much rather have a tank character like Korgan.
Luckily it's mostly easy to manage so I won't say this is a real issue for me. I just sometimes have these bizarre moments where for example a brain golem will *not* attack anyone but charname but rather spend its last few seconds on a merry chase, not making a single attack.
I suppose it improves the realism but what's the point in a high HP, low AC tank if enemies invariably attack everyone else first? I know that most people love all the defensive buffs but I personally find it excrutiatingly boring to keep them up all the time. I'd much rather have a tank character like Korgan.
Well, note that they also prioritize melee characters and most of them will happily engage a fighter rather than run past. I've cerainly found Korgan to be useful. You also don't need to keep defensive buffs up at all times. They are mostly situational things. If you notice that they're running past Korgan and going for an unbuffed Nalia then poof! Mirror image. Or gulp! Invisibility. It's also worth keeping squishier characters out of combat altogether unless they're actively doing something like casting, to avoid presenting them as a target.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that though the targeting can be annoying, it's also predictable and isn't based on dps like some MMOs. So given a certain configuration you can predict exactly who will be prioritized and all you have to do is find a configuration that will ensure the character you want will be targeted first. I know I'm making it sound more complicated than it needs to be but it's a lot simpler in game, I promise It's mostly a matter of shuffling characters into melee range and use of invisibility and healing potions.
Comments
and who could forget Viconia's favorite:
Spell Trigger: hold person, domination, Khelben "Blackstaff"'s Warding Whip
okay, okay, I'll stop
Main features about bards :
- BG1 :
very fragile at the beginning (low HP, no helmet = instant death in case of critical), a lot less at the end (stoneskin, mirror image).
Useless in melee at the beginning (too risky, low thaco, not able to dual wield, no excpetional strength), very strong at the end (dual wielding, 19 str, offensive spin)
Also, the ability to use wands is godly in BG1 and pickpocket is very powerful (having access early to the free action ring and 2 +3 scimitar just breaks the game)
- BG2 :
pre HLA they are very good : They are not very far behing fighters (offensive spin + 19 str + dual wield) and on par with mages (roughly same spells, less spell/day, more caster levels)
post HLA they start to lag behind fighters and mages but UAI/spike traps gives them extra flavour.
Overall, while they are very far from being as powerful as a multi fighter/mage (which are ridiculously powerful), they can be very fun AND useful.
What i like with them is you actually have to use all their feats to make them strong.
If you just use melee, they are weak. If you just use arcane they are weak.
On the opposite as a fighter mage you basically can destroy all opponents without breaking a sweat which is rather bland.
Haer'dalis is just brokenly OP in a number ways first being his Tiefling resistances and sword thaco bonus. If you wait to till lvl 15 to grab him he'll have two pips in longswords and shortswords. He levels up sooo fast so you can abuse his caster level in many ways. I also love how he makes Keldorn virtually obsolete once he gets UAI and enhanced bard song is just silly if you know how to exploit it (see: mislead).
Really recommend rogue rebalancing as it nerfs Blade's silly OP bard song exploits, but gives them more interesting HLAs and up to level 8 spells (as per PnP).
By the end of BG II, and especially in ToB, he can be an immensely kickass character. He can ease in close combat as he gets higher in level, and Blade level incredibly fast. His low constitution is irrelevant as Girdle of fortitude + stoneskin can toughen anyone up, and defensive spin is an excellent ability, allowing him to throw spells in the heat of the battle (Magic missiles, the best Melf Minute Meteor user, high Skull Trap damage) before closing in to melee with offensive spin, while being virtually immune to physical damage as he rarely get hit, even with insane ToB enemies THAC0.
Edit: Installed Rogue Rebalancing, I'm truly impressed by the new possibilities the mod offers, will roll a blade for sure.
RP wise being a performer/entertainer just never does it for me as my main.
(There is the 2e Riddlemaster kit, which is an awesome variant of Bard (basically you play a super-intelligent "Riddler" style character who gets a bonus to everything because he's so smart, but don't sing or have legend lore. [actually Bards had ALL the interesting/well-designed kits in 2e])
Still... not getting higher levels spells... I mean from a RP perspective how can one pass up on understanding how to control the elements of the universe. I always have to end up a mage with some dual for flare.
I would never trade a Blade for a Fighter/Mage especially since their Offensive Spin was nerfed/fixed. But I would definitely include one in a balanced party. Mislead Bards singing Enhanced Bard Song does wonders!
That said, I just got Enhanced Bard Song on him. It's... overpowered. Korgan's AC reaches -20 with it. I'm still in SoA so he doesn't exactly get hit much.
I love having my blade as much for his spellcasting. Even though he can't get past level 6, those spells never become obsolete. Improved Haste? Pierce Magic? Breach? Skull Trap? Remove Magic? There are lots of goodies that I don't mind having on more than one character. It's not exactly unnoticable that he has low HP, but no it's not a disaster. It's just that he absolutely must be protected all the time or stay out of melee range.
It's particularly frustrating though when you are attacked the second you enter an area because then it's hard to tank. For example, enter the graveyard and get attacked by vampires. Can you get them to attack the ones with Negative Plane Protection? Of course not!
Oh, and I just have to say this: Level drain is one of the most annoying game mechanics I have ever seen. I think for a certain fight someone just sat down and thought "how can I make the player throw the keyboard out of the window? Oh, I know, let's take away their only cleric and level drain everyone!"
Even though the game lacks a taunt skill you can use the AI to hold aggro. As you know it prioritizes low HP and also characters in melee over ranged, so someone like Nalia in melee range can hold the attention of enemies all day. Just don't use PfMW or she will lose aggro (can be useful if you need to switch though).
IIRC you don't have to send in your entire party for the ship of Balduran. I usually send in the fighters alone and when they need a spell cast they yell down the stairs for a mage.
Luckily it's mostly easy to manage so I won't say this is a real issue for me. I just sometimes have these bizarre moments where for example a brain golem will *not* attack anyone but charname but rather spend its last few seconds on a merry chase, not making a single attack.