Druid kits - still 'meh'?

Alcaste

Hey all. I was thinking about playing a druid through BGEE and BG2EE as a shapeshifter, but I'm wondering if they're still poorly balanced. All I could find through my searching around was old threads with conflicting information, and I can't really find anything recent. What's the consensus now?

booinyoureyes

Shapeshifters kinda suck in the later games (the entire kit does not work as it was intended to), but Avengers are good and Totemic are very interesting with cool summons. Fighter/Druids are very good from what I hear, and Jaheira soaks up damage very nicely in one of my current playthroughs.

kaffekoppen

I'm staying far away from them. I wish they were better though. It's like they had a good idea for some of the kits but completely forgot to make them scale at high levels. At level 30, a lot of special abilities from many of the kits are utterly useless, but the disadvantages are as severe as they ever were. This doesn't just affect druids.

Actually I think generally single class clerics and druids are both kind of 'meh' at high levels. Feels like they were almost meant to be multiclassed.

Lathlaer

It would be really good if:

1. Shapeshifter got the form he really deserved (I hear the Greater Werewolf isn't as it supposed to be)
2. Avenger got also a wizard spell for the 7th level. Not that it matters THAT much since he has a lot of pure awesomness there (Nature's Beauty, Creeping Doom and then HLA summons and Implosion), but having the possibility would always be welcome. Something like Power Word: Stun for instance, though I naturally prefer Finger of Death.
Totemic: no comment, don't play him.

Dzuk5

i play shapeshifter/worrior dualclass 13/max lvl and using bug with removemagic spell he can use staf of ram +12 and head 6 atack per round without busts he was anstopoble. it was funy but spoil the balance of the game

Stasis_Sword

Druids are fine except for 3 things:
1). The xp required to get a Druid to level 15 could get a warrior to level 20. That's just silly.

2). The initial forms are good/great but don't really scale. I feel mages end up as better shapeshifters.

3). They should have a few more offensive spells (flame strike was theirs).

elminster

booinyoureyes said:

Shapeshifters kinda suck in the later games (the entire kit does not work as it was intended to)

People may not like the outcome but I don't see any evidence of the kits not working as intended. To use the claw example if they didn't want it to do 1d6 piercing damage (as a +2 weapon) they wouldn't have added in the extra effect in both of the werewolf shapechanging abilities that overrides your weapons from doing 2d8 slashing damage (as a +3 weapon).

With regard to the OP I made a post a few weeks ago here about some ideas for each of the kits/ the vanilla class. Its regarding both games but I guess whether or not they are still "meh" depends on what you plan to use it for.

http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/444223#Comment_444223

Drayen

TBH, if you go druid it's either Avenger (-2str -2con not that big of a deal..) for more spells (Chromatic orb is a good lvl1 spell, where druids usually lack... web is a decent disabler, chaos is amazing to disable groups, and chain lightning is just badass damage output. Totemic druid if you dont mind losing shapeshifting (which kinda sucks tbh) and itll give you really good summons, immune to mind flayers too as they are spirits

Fighter/Druid is a pretty good combo too. When you get earth/fire elemental transformation which makes you kick ass already, you can use fighter HLAs at the same time! Use iron skins, transform to earth elemental, then greater whirlwind away with your massive damage. However, you will lose a lot of spells per day, and if you spend all your time shapeshifted with fighter HLAs, you might as well just make a straight fighter.

booinyoureyes

@elminster I thought the Greater Werewolf form was supposed to have some immunities that were not given to the shapeshifter. Am I mistaken about that? Is it maybe that the greater werewolf shapeshifted form is just not the equivalent of a greater werewolf?
I'm actually really interested in knowing that, since I plan on recruiting Cernd in one of my games and was considering installing some mods.
Thanks for the info

elminster

Greater Werewolves and Werewolves in D&D (and in the game) do have immunity to normal weapons (and in the game regenerate at 6hp/second in the case of Greater Werewolves). Along with a lot of other fun stuff. I just think its a bit of a stretch (without an interview with say a lead developer or something of that nature) to say that the actual forms themselves are not working as what the developers intended (when they were made 13+ years ago).

Dungeonnoob

My shapeshifter was the only one that survived the last battle with Sarewok inside the temple in BG1.Its a decent magic-resistant/ac/tank buffed with haste boots,didn't use offensive spells much.Didnt use hardcore rules either since I'm still a green nubbish knight though.

FatalApocalypse

Druids and meh are synonyms.

Kastion

I like druids in general in most games. I can take or leave shapeshifting but really dig the whole nature magic gig. That being said ... nothing in the druid seems to draw me in. I tried the totemic druid a bit and that seemed like the better option if I ever try to pick it up again but really their spell selection just seems underwhelming and their shapeshifting is just ... well ... "meh". Thus why I think totemic would be best but who knows.

Probably best druid is fighter/druid.

Rhyme

I really enjoyed doing a BG2 playthrough (pre-ToB) as an Avenger dualed to Fighter. Quick druid levels to 12 or 13 (don't remember which, not sure it makes much difference), and then you dual over to fighter before those gigantic xp requirements set in.

This gives you just enough druid levels to let you experience the full Avenger kit, and the (somewhat limited) spell selections you do have add quite a bit of flavor while still feeling like a fighter. It's strong without being, "I don't know why I bother having a party with me" strong. Finally, the equipment restrictions often lead you towards some interesting lesser-used weapon types, which can be refreshing.

Thrasymachus

I quite like the Avenger. Mainly because it plays (somewhat) like a druid/mage, which is my favourite multi- class option from AD&D.

Pity the EE version didn't import some of the druid spells from IWD. IWD druids were great!

Corvino

While fighter/druid multis have been mentioned as a good option, I prefer the dual. Getting a druid from level 13 to 15 takes a huge amount of XP. The multiclass option makes this far worse, while a fighter->druid dual barely takes longer than the base class.

As a single class though, Avengers are an interesting option. They're a far more back-row class than any other kit. @Thrasymachus is quite accurate to compare them to a druid/mage.

kaffekoppen

Unfortunately, their bonus spell selection isn't that impressive late in the game. I think they have the same scaling problem that clerics have. A shame because it could have been very fun to play them otherwise.

Tresset

elminster said:

booinyoureyes said:

Shapeshifters kinda suck in the later games (the entire kit does not work as it was intended to)

People may not like the outcome but I don't see any evidence of the kits not working as intended. To use the claw example if they didn't want it to do 1d6 piercing damage (as a +2 weapon) they wouldn't have added in the extra effect in both of the werewolf shapechanging abilities that overrides your weapons from doing 2d8 slashing damage (as a +3 weapon).

With regard to the OP I made a post a few weeks ago here about some ideas for each of the kits/ the vanilla class. Its regarding both games but I guess whether or not they are still "meh" depends on what you plan to use it for.

http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/444223#Comment_444223

@elminster I am pretty sure the werewolf claws are wrong, either by accident or mistake (both of which happen sometimes). There is no logical reason in my eyes for:

1. Them to share their weapon with the brown bear form.
2. Both the greater and ordinary werewolf forms to have the exact same weapon.
3. The werewolf forms not having their own unique weapons when ALL other shapeshifts in the game use weapons that are custom made for and unique to their form.
4. The +3 2d8 claw you mentioned to exist unless it was made specifically for the greater werewolf (seeing as it is currently a completely unused resource otherwise...)
5. The werewolves to be the only forms of the Shapeshifter and yet have very lackluster weapons (You would think they would get something at least little more distinctive considering that these forms are the ONLY reason one would choose to be a shapeshifter...)

While you are right that none of this is definitive proof that the claws are wrong or that the forms are not working as intended, it doesn't take a very large leap of logic to realize that this doesn't seem quite right. Not to mention that much of the community seems to have the wide spread belief that, at least in some aspect, the werewolf forms were incorrectly implemented. That belief had to start somewhere... Also, your statement is IMHO far from definitive proof that that the werewolf forms were actually working as intended. No offense of course.

elminster

Admittedly my initial statement could have been better worded and may have come across as being dismissive of the possibility of the current status of these forms being not intended, however the main point of that particular post was questioning the statement "the entire kit is not working as it was intended to" because I don't think there is enough evidence to say that either way (without as I wrote later a lead developer or someone in charge of designing the kit stepping forward).

I would also say its curious that not one but both of the forms use the same weapon, but the 1d12/2d8 weapons could for instance be examples of something that were considered during development but that the developers didn't fully eliminate when they decided against them (sort of like the various elements that make up the Unfinished Business mods and the random bits of script that were left around in BG1 for Ajantis's mission with the missing monks in the keep). There are other examples of the game developers re-using old resources so while its unique for shapeshifting forms in the game reusing resources is not unheard of overall. So I guess we don't really know either way.

Its not as if theres even consistency with how the forms could theoretically work. The werewolf form looks like they could have intended it to have immunity to normal weapons (due to a ring that grants it), but from what I can see that effect is nowhere to be found in the greater werewolf form. Since that aspect of the werewolf form has never worked I think its hard to say which direction they intended with that particular effect.

Additionally beyond any regeneration rate it gained from originally giving 25 constitution the Greater Werewolf form has two other different potential rates of regeneration (3hp/second and 6hp/second). Yet as far as I'm aware neither of them have ever worked. Is the fact that neither of them work an oversight or intentional? I can't say I know either way.

Anyways, with regard to the the topic of the thread I would still say the druid kits are worth checking out. Especially now that more items (like rings of protection) are compatible with the shapeshifter forms. Of the kits though Avenger is still probably going to be the most interesting. You get a few handy spells and that spider form should now work with your Web spell, so that should make taking out enemies a lot easier.