[Request] Option to vary raise dead

HeroicSpur

Hey everyone,

I think a big issue in the game currently is death. When your party members die, there is a very strong urge to reload. It's not that I find myself unwilling to go to temples and raise fallen allies, but rather that it is a massive chore to raise them.

After they die you have to somehow store the equipment between your remaining party members and then trek over to a temple. Then you have to go through the laborious task of replacing and re-equipping everything. Reloading sounds more and more enticing every second.

My suggestion is that a button be implemented into the inventory screen to 'save' the current loadout. Thus when the character presses 'restore loadout' it automatically equips any items in the inventory that were part of the saved loadout.

I think there are more extreme solutions to this too, but I think the one above is perhaps the most neutral insofar as intefering with game mechanics is concerned.

MERLANCE

I agree that something needs to be done, but you still have to pick up all the gear and spread it out so that no one gets encumbered. Maybe you could just keep gear equipped after you die? Its no worse than having to carry your ally back to town to get raised.

AndreaColombo

I agree that something needs to be done about this. As it is, the dead character already fails to gain any XP the party may acquire from his death to his resurrection, which can be quite a hefty penalty if they die in the middle of a big battle and the nearest temple is far away enough to trigger a random encounter on the way. Having to get all of his stuff back, pay for the temple's service and re-equip everything is appalling. I always reload instead.

However, keeping the gear equipped when you die is not a viable choice as someone may want to get the items and move on without that specific NPC (especially if they had only been recruited to serve as fodder). It's always better to be able to get gear back upon a character's demise.

Cadros

It can be a bit of a pain yes, but death should have some penalties, and I guess the balance should be between making death something you really want to avoid, and making it overly tedious to work around. It is rare to be in a situation that there is not a container you can stash things in, the painful bit is indeed finding someone to do the raising, and then retrieving the kit if you are unable to carry it. So in my opinion this is a choice between the more realistic and closer to role playing option of continuing with the current set up (at least you don't have to carry the corpse), and an ease of use option where perhaps the character is grayed out but their inventory is still accessible as normal, or as @MERLANCE suggested gear is stuck to the corpse until resurrected. This could be an option in the game settings to switch between the two, but I don't feel it is a major priority to add.

Cadros

@AndreaColombo You could have the option to retrieve the loot from the corpse at the temple via the option to bury them or something, although I think it a little rude to accept someone into your group knowing full well they are going to die horribly, and then begrudging them the kit you gave them to die in.

Sorry for the double post it wouldn't post both parts together, but separately it is fine

HeroicSpur

@Cadros, @AndreaColombo: This is the main reason why I tried to keep the request as neutral as possible, without intefering with any mechanics. Everyone has a different opinion on how exactly death should work and what the ramifications of it should be. If it was entirely up to me (and not something all players had to live with), I would probably take a more radical solution altogether.

But as it stands we need a system which doesn't offend but makes the process less laborious, and I think this is it.

*or least partway. Baby steps.

Ardanis

It would be great to see the KotOR/NWN2's approach to death implemented, when characters simply fall unconscious till the end of encounter. Above-mentioned annoyance aside, it will also solve the problem of game ending upon PC's death.

Tanthalas

Eh, I disagree that death should be removed from the game. Yeah, it sucks that the game ends if the PC dies, but, personally, it would really feel out of place if it were removed from the game.

I understand that many people just reload when someone dies, but taking out the possibility of death entirely because many people prefer to reload?

HeroicSpur

@Ardanis @Tanthalas: my point exactly!

Zakeros

It would be significant change in the gameplay, as well as in the engine, and Trent Oster said he doesn't want to interfere in the original too much. So, I bet the current system will stay, with eventual correction / corrections of it.

lordkim

I even reload when i kill a big bad guy !!! Just to kill him again !! :O)


If he dies , he dies....

Cadros

I agree with those above who feel that the removal of death from the game cheapens it, besides if you have just been butchered by a dragon it seems very silly that you would just get back up after the dragon has died. In this instance I am erring on the side of roleplay, and realism over ease of use.

Zakeros

Can someone specify how does it look at D&D rules? When the NPC is shred to pieces there is absolutely NO way to bring him back? What about divine intervention? I am pretty sure NPC's that have died during SoA can be summoned in ToB with Spirit of Fate...

Edit: Except for Yoshimo, it is

aXidal

I like the current death system. In many modern games, dying is not a very big deal. In Baldur's Gate, and especially in the first one it is. If i was to change anything, I would actually take it in the opposite direction: if someone dies, you would have to carry their corpse to a priest to raise him/her (unless you have your own raise dead spell that is). Then you could choose to leave their equipment on, but that would make them heavier.

HeroicSpur

@axidal: I'm not sure if this is the case or not, but it seems this request is starting to get confused for a request to change or alter the entire death mechanic, judging by the civil war beginning to take place above.

I also wish the disagreers would explain why they disagree, so the request could be amended accordingly if possible.

It's only for the option to have a 'save loadout' and 'restore loadout' button on the inventory screen so you can re-equip party members faster after they die, or after they lose their equipment.

In principle it's not different to 'cast healing spells on rest', it's sole purpose is to reduce inconvenience and the number of mouse-clicks required, not to change how death works.

I personally agree with @Tanthalas, that the death mechanic should not be removed in its entirety, or changed to an unconciousness mechanic. However, what might be an idea, is to convert this into an advanced options difficulty option. In particular, players who are particularly opposed to the drudgery of reloading, or multiplayers who are especially inconvenienced by death might prefer a lower setting.

AndreaColombo

I'm all for the button thing. In fact, I have clicked the "Insightful" button on the first post.

HeroicSpur

@AndreaColombo: Hehe, thanks. I think this is a UI request as much as a new feature request.

aXidal

@HeroicSpur: I am sorry if i went a bit of topic. So to stick to it, I do not have anything against being able to quickly re-equip, as long as you still have to carry the stuff. However, for me this would not be a prioritized feature regarding how seldom one die, and how relativly quick re-equiping is.

smeagolheart

I think the main issue is the annoyance of picking up all the dead guys kit (equipment).

How about this, make the dead NPC's body a container (think bag of holding) containing all the stuff he/she had in their inventory. All the weapons and armor would have to be dropped next to the "body bag" in case their inventory was full at the time of death. One more variable could be you could remove stuff from the "body bag" but not add in case there is something super great in there you really need.

Anyway,
You grab the body and equipment they were holding (everything not in their pack) and trot to the nearest temple. They get raised, all the stuff that was in their inventory that gets put back in their inventory and you hand over their moonblade or whatever equipment they were holding before their temporary death.

This method would not make it as cheap and easy as other games that just unconscious the guy and let you "revive if you survive". This would make it slighty less inventory juggling upon death and a good compromise.

nulspace

As it is, the dead character already fails to gain any XP the party may acquire from his death to his resurrection, which can be quite a hefty penalty if they die in the middle of a big battle and the nearest temple is far away enough to trigger a random encounter on the way.

In my opinion, this is actually to the benefit of the game. It makes the player actually weigh his options when an NPC dies - reload and try to kill the monster without dying, so as to preserve the XP, or take the XP hit on the off-chance that I won't be able to defeat the monster a second time? This gives the player more food for thought in a "metagamey" way. I much prefer it over systems like NWN/NWN2 where anyone brought to 0 hitpoits becomes unconscious. When there are more absolute penalties for poor strategy/gameplay, the intensity, and therefore excitement, of the game on the whole increases.

My personal gripe with the death system is that CHARNAME is, for some reason, exempt from the rules; if CHARNAME dies, game over. Why is this the case, if revival is an option? I suppose there has to be a framework in place for a "game over" scenario, but the justification for a "game over @ CHARNAME death" always seemed shaky to me (and maybe it's because my CHARNAME is often pretty squishy!)

HeroicSpur

@nulspace: It's a plot reason, although obviously that doesn't become apparent until much later. When you die your essence is released back into the pool. Resurrecting you may bring you back, but you lose the essence (I think). That's the only reason I can think for ending the game when the PC dies.

Edit: And also the possibility of you carrying on with the story/plot with your party leader dead may create inconsistencies.

nulspace

@HeroicSpur - that's actually very insightful, and something I hadn't thought of before!

HeroicSpur

@nulspace: it was really annoying me, so I gave it a bit more thought.

caruga

The only way you could get me to not reload on death is if
1. You made the reload take 10 minutes.
2. You gave me an option for maintaining a single save-file, no quicksave, that overwrites on every little event.

That last one is just a crutch to compensate for my lack of willpower. If you're not like that, great, but there are people like me as well. I'd definitely play through with such a toggle switched on on my 1st EE playthrough, if it were there.

This will be something I'd like to see in an advanced difficulty options submenu (i've yet to submit that idea as a thread): a tickbox for "single savefile for character" (perhaps invisibly backed up in case it gets corrupted) and as an extension of that, also "single savefile for character + delete savefile on character death".

HeroicSpur

@caruga: the advanced difficulty submenu has already been requested I think. I agree that reloading is just a bit too convenient for players not to do it.

Winthal

I think the problem lies with the Quick Save / Reload feature itself (or simply being able to save anywhere outside of combat, and then reloading). If you think about it, this feature encourages lazy and unimaginative gameplay on multiple fronts. If the save feature was limited to specific save points (Example: one save point at the entrance to the Naskhel mines, and one save point right outside the exit), people would once more be encouraged to play more tactical, more cautious, play less on 'auto pilot', resurrect fallen party members rather than reloading the second someone bites the dust, people wouldn't be able to reload gambling events because they lost their money, no reload when speaking to your party members - which means you have to live with what you say to them and the ensuing consequences/fallout that follows - this is especially true for romances, the list goes on...

Lunever

@smeagolheart: Lol, I just thought I had a bloody good idea and wanted to suggest to make the NPC be a container item. Way to late. But of course I agreee.

kamuizin

Lets go back to the classic so, as chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy save systems.

Put save points on the game. Inside dungeons you only save in a save point, outside dungeons only certain places would accept to save, my shot? Taverns and special places like temples for example.

Make the game only accept save in taverns and special places (therefore fulfilling the request of "make taverns more worthwhile").

Sometimes the simpler is better, and today the simpler is the older !

Drugar

Sweet merciful gods of gaming, I hate save points. Dungeons can take hours to clear, time which I don't always have and it sucks to have to spend several minutes tracking back to the inn just so I can save my game when I need to leave, not to mention having to do half the dungeon over when I die. Nothing wrong with the savegame system the way it is.

Now, on topic;
I agree with the 'make the body a container for its items' part. It feels kind of wrong to completely undress Viconia whenever she dies.
By making the body a container, you can remove certain items so the body becomes light enough to carry. I don't mind the extra realism of an actual body in the inventory which weighs a lot rather than the invisible naked body floating along with me, like it is now.

kamuizin

@Drugar, you could always have a save exit when use quit game, it's a parcial save, if you leave the game it will be saved where you are, and when you load the game that save is errased.

The point of do half of the dungeon when you die IS the point that many persons want, many ppl want more difficult, and it's too lame to be able to save at each 5 seconds. What's been raised here is a way to make ppl truly use the ressurection rods, scrolls, spells, flesh to stone, freedom...etc... so your problem is not with save points, but with a harder difficult.

As to your 2° comment, i too agree in leaving the items on the body, but the true weight of the body+items should continue, how you gonna carry the body is part of the challenge (of course you can always take part of the items from the body to let it more light).

Xasil

Just freeze the stuff on the dead character unless you raise him? That way you won't have to loot him and people won't use their dead team as a big countainer. That's the main reason why I would always end up soloing the game... You do a fight, 3 members dies and you have to full loot them with the 3 remaining members to go on