Choosing an Evil Alignment
mrdeluxe
Member Posts: 98
How do you decide which alignment to choose, when you want to do an evil playthrough? How do you differentiate between Lawful, Neutral or Chaotic Evil and how do you (if at all) reflect these decisions in gameplay?
I was considering playing with a Chaotic Evil PC, but as I read about the alignment I came to realize it would be extremely improbable that such person would travel with a party for long, seems link an alignment best suited for solos. How do you role-play the different levels of evil?
I was considering playing with a Chaotic Evil PC, but as I read about the alignment I came to realize it would be extremely improbable that such person would travel with a party for long, seems link an alignment best suited for solos. How do you role-play the different levels of evil?
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Well, I usually play neutral evil or lawful evil. The thing is, I feel that these two alignments give me room to create a complex character. Being either NE or LE doesn't restrict you to being insane evil. Instead, you can simply be a selfish and cunning character, who on the surface may seem nice, but in reality doesn't care much for people in general. This allows you to do quests which get your reputation up and doing the opposite when each option suits your needs.
Like I said, being selfish doesn't mean being a murderous savage. You can actually show empathy to the people you like. But those you don't like are not likely to be treated decently - again unless it serves your needs. Personal relationships aside, an example could be a NE character, who likes children or certain people whose appearances he/she can identify with. Maybe the character will do quests for children or said group of people he can identify with - even if it is normally considered a GOOD alignment choice - what separates him from GOOD characters is the fact that he does not have major moral conventions, which he feels he must restrict himself to. In other words, he does certain things considered GOOD because he FEELS it makes sense - not because he generally wants to be GOOD. For LE characters add here that they obey the law only as a tool to abuse other people or comfort themselves. In my opinion a LE character can break the law under certain circumstances, but only if the reward is big enough and there is no other way to get that reward. Think a corrupt businessman for example.
As you can see there are, in my opinion, many ways to roleplay these characters.
Talking about CE is something else. This character will, in my opinion, usually only be interesting if he isn't the leader or the strongest character in your party, as that will force him to look up to his superiors and act as their brutal minion.
Hope all of this made at least some sense to you
The difficulty is how to make a complex Chaotic Evil character. One who is random in her actions but not bi-dimentional… oh well. Maybe it's how @Bigfish says: it's Hooey
She is Lawful Evil, and Tord roleplayed her in a very nuanced, believable and almost sympathetic way. Here's a link if u happened to be interested.
CE - 1-4
NE - 4-8
LE - 6-9
CN - 6-14
TN - 9-11
LN - 10-14
CG - 14-16
NG - 16-18
LG - 19-20
Reputation 6 or lower is where you get branded a criminal. I'm not sure if there are variables involved, but I seem to recall people still thought I was a psychopath after falling that far and raising my rep back via donations.
Naturally, play how you want since even the reputation system is terrible and tends to push one way or the other.
Is that chart something official for D&D?
It would seem fundamentally flawed... I mean I am a Lawful inclined person, but it does not really make much sense to tie Lawful => Chaotic in with reputation.
Plenty of classical heroes beloved by the people are rebels standing up to tyranny. Robin Hood being the stereotypical Chaotic Good here. It would seem odd to limit him to 16 reputation.
Also, lawful ties in because reputation flags you as criminal or not.
Lawful Evil: clever, methodical and/or bound by spesific rules. Works the system to get what they want, pretending to be good and decent often enough. Or following the spesifics of some evil church like say Talos. Wonderful alignment for Blackguards, Mages and Fighters imo.
Neutral Evil: primarily concerned with themselves, cares little for others one way or the other. Easiest evil alignment to play and comprehend I think. Take what you want, dispatch those you dislike, team up with anyone that won't give you trouble for your actions.
Chaotic Evil: unpredictable, destructive and/or "dumb" evil. Simply bludgeons their way through the world with little regard towards anyone or anything. I'm not sure how to play that alignment tbh... assuming alignment selection had any impact on the game at all that is. Truth is there's very little and you're not penalized in any way for not playing your alignment.
That's my understanding of the alignment more or less so the rare few times I play evil, it's mostly Neutral or Lawful.
Alignment shouldn't so much make the personality as it should add to it. So instead of saying "Pick my alignment so I know what type of character he is", you want to decide what type of person he is and THEN figure out how alignment plays a part in that.
Also, 'Chaotic evil' is not 'Necessarily' a loner type and there is nothing that says they can't have a full and robust party. Take a look at how many people Saravok has around him at any one time. The point is, the more (usually) selfish aims of the CE character can quite easily be suited to hiring and even working with someone that can be a means to an end. If your goal is power and money, you need people around you to achieve that. You just are unlikely to be doing to many of the 'Help the helpless orphan children' type quests (unless there are tangible gains into the bargain).
But again, alignment doesn't (Normally) define who the character is. It is a part of the underlying personality of that character but it is so very subjective on so many fronts that any number of an almost infinite potential actions and motivations can be ascribed to any given alignment.
Now, if you want to play a Cleric or an Anti-Paladin, these tend more towards being alignment driven, but even that isn't always the case and they are more driven by their patron's beliefs than alignment. Most Deities alignments are products of their actions, not the other way around.
Finally, be aware that a character's alignment is a range of behavior. A CE character can 'sometimes' do neutral or even (on rare occasions) good things. They can also be lawful in behavior at times if it suits their ultimate goals and needs. You want to play your alignment as true as you can, but it isn't an iron clad box that you are railroaded into. And again, it shouldn't define you so much as your personality should define what alignment you play.
Also, Lawful alignment does not correlate to legal.
Lawful Evil (Assassin) - does not judge. If someone wants a person dead and is willing to pay for it, he'll do it without question. This goes both ways - if someone pays for protection, he will kill to protect the employer. He doesn't kill if there is no gain. He doesn't switch sides. Once he gave his word, he is bound by it, regardless if the victim offers more. Some crucial rp quests/choices are: the hunters and the druids (gives word to hunters, kills druids; hunters prove to be valuable employers, so he helps them again in the city). Cloakwood Mines (and BG2 slavers): doesn't give the freed slaves gold, but also doesn't go out of his way to kill them (no-one pays him for it). Blackmailed noblewoman: kills the guy for her, takes money, done with it.
The backstory to "justify" the specialization is that charname used to be a reckless bully in Candlekeep who once tried to kill a visitor for a minor offense in Winthrop's. This plan, due to charname being drunk and nothing more than a bigmouthed bully, failed and the intended victim turned out to be a Zhent agent. He saw potential and recruited charname, and sent instructions for his training via other agents and messengers (mentoring an assassin under Gorion's harper nose was obviously a big motivation, too). With this guidance, charname found direction and follows the code of other Zhent assassins. He teams up with Monty and Xzar, who he suspects to be sent by his secret mentor and values their advise over all other party members.
Originally, I made this charname in BG2 first. In this version, lacking of Zhentarim NPCs, the backstory was that Edwin had worded his oath differently, effectively binding charname to him as well, with Edwin coming out as the "employer" in the deal. Charname realized he was tricked too late - being a low level/unexperienced assassin who tried way too hard to live up to what he read in books about the code of honor - but grudgingly stands by his word.
Summary: My lawful evil charname is rarely the driving force; he is or was manipulated or guided by an NPC with higher intelligence (charname's is 14, so both mages are smarter and Xzar is also wiser - Edwin mainly got lucky to find an even less experienced lawful evil person than himself when he struck the deal). Charname "just follows orders" and these happen to come from evil NPCs. (BG2 - obviously sides with thieves due to class.)
Neutral Evil (Jester) - a gambler and a thief who is driven by his envy. He especially envies arcane casters who are better casters than he is, and wants them to fail, so he can laugh at them. Physically inferior, charname also envies fighters and their strength and weapon expertise. Mainly, he wants everything to go his way and since most adventurers he encounters excel in something he is only medicore in, charname fights dirty and then brags about it, thinking himself smarter than everyone else. He will backstab, betray and lie at any given chance, just to say he outsmarted people. He's the kind of character who turns in a quest for a reward and then kills the quest giver to get the turned in item back. He is desperate to be seen as smart and influential, and if someone appears to be a step up on the political ladder, charname will try to use that person for his own advancement. He happily agrees to investigate the mines and hunt the bandits, but he also drowns the slaves in Cloakwood, so there are no witnesses to his less than heroic way of clearing the mines in the first place. He then makes up a story how he singlehandedly defeated the villain, who drowned the slaves in his dying breathe. He courts Nalia to gain her title, but ditches her when she doesn't want an arranged marriage. He blackmails the noblewoman.
Summary: Neutral evil charname wants to be a hero, but not work for it. He'll use any shortcut to fame and influence he sees. He uses people and thinks he is the smartest person alive. If the only way to become a hero is to make other heroes fail or discredit them, so be it. He obviously also uses NPCs, if they are not in his way (or notably better than him).
BG2: sides with thieves because they have more influence in a city than the "newcomer" guild.
Chaotic Evil (Priest of Talos) - a madman who became fascinated with death early in his life. After Gorion's death, he considers it his fate to learn all there is to learn about death, dying and the afterlife. He thinks of himself as a noble seeker of wisdom. He also thinks Xzar is the most insightful person he ever met, and meeting him right after Gorion's death must be a sign that he is on the right path. Xzar becomes his new mentor and they feed off each other's madness. They conduct experiments - killing animals or people, in secret, so no-one will steal their research results. Obviously, they often fail to revive the test subjects, but that only means they have to try a different approach. Every "mad" thing they do and that goes wrong just confirms their belief that they are doing the right thing. It's cleric-specific, but charname has a certain respect for religious people, so they are less likely to become unwilling test subjects.
Charname is most definitely insane, but he's not an axe crazy spree killer. To him, his actions make perfect sense. He also sees value in travelling with companions, if they don't object to his "research" or at least don't try to stop him. If anything, NPCs fade into background noise to charname. They are somehow around, may be useful at times (i.e. Montaron finding him a "secret laboratory" or stealing "neccessary equipment"), but other than that, charname would probably not notice if one companion left or was replaced by someone with the same skills.
Roleplay encounters of importance: Bassilus, who apparently knows a lot about necromancy, but refuses to share his wisdom. He's competition in the very real race for the ultimate knowledge of life and death and therefore must be eliminated. The girl and cat in the waterfall - he'll return the cat because he likes picking up dead things and upon learning that the cat has died before, he will kill the girl to regain this precious study object. Ulcaster Ghost/Ghost Knights - treats them with great respect, in hope to learn how to become incorporal. Fishermen and Priestess - side with priestess because Umberlee is a force that causes much death; her favor is valuable.
Summary: Chaotic evil charname sees himself as "good" because the search for knowledge is "good" by default in his mind. He thinks he is very honorable - and that is, to some degree, even true. He sacrifices to his deity, he respects temples and holy places (though there is the element of arrogance; he leaves other worshippers be because in the end, he'll triumph because his faith is stronger and worthier, and they will admire his foresight once that becomes clear). In other words: chaotic evil doesn't have to mean bloodthirsty, slaughter-happy psychopath. It can mean a delusion that makes perfect sense to charname (and possibly someone equally insane/with a similar delusion), but no-one else. Madness doesn't have to be apparent at first sight. Unless you'd talk about religion or death, you could probably have an ale with charname in a tavern, chatting about your day, and not know how "off" he really is.
BG2: sides with vampires because woohoo, learning about undead.
The "faction" system for reputation that some other games have is probably a better way to handle this, so you can have a high reputation among thieves with great street cred but a low reputation among the nobility, or the other way around.
So what makes him CE instead of NE? I think part of it is the goal. NE tends to be 'selfish evil'. Look at Viconia or Eldoth- both are very good examples of NE. Almost all their evil acts are entirely for their own benefit, and both can even pass as neutral at times because of that: if there's no benefit to them, they don't really feel a need to 'act' evil. Sarevok is different from that, because he has this huge goal in front of him that he acts evil for the sake of. Everything seems to revolve around this goal/obsession, save for some personal faults.
This isn't to say that a NE person might not have a huge goal. But NE can very easily lean towards LE or CE.
Cyric is probably another good example of a CE force.
My comment though was relating to @BigFish saying that having a less than perfect reputation is reasonable (essentially) because Robin Hood wasn't Lawful good. And that he wasn't liked by the people he robbed (less than 10% of the population) therefore his 'overall' reputation should be less.
Based on that context, the actual number of people being robbed, and therefore not liking him, was relatively small in relation to the whole. The vast majority of the people would have given him a reputation of 20 (or higher if such existed).
And the reputation system isn't 'The legal system', so no. it isn't 'The rich people's opinion is the only one that counts 'because they are the ones arresting him'. Reputation impacts how merchants deal with you. It effects how wandering strangers deal with you irrespective of the guards being present or how they are disposed towards the legal system. It effects how your party members deal with you, and some of them would have NOTHING to do with the legal system of Baldur's Gate or the region.
It is the 'General' opinion of a given Charname and his/her party. General being the operative word and encompassing everyone; not just the elite. Sure, if the party has a really poor reputation, the guards are going to get involved, but that in no way says that a low reputation is exclusively because the Barons of Baldur's Gate have issued warrants for your arrest.
I'm sure that Daeveron and Tazok and Saravok and the rest thought REALLY poorly of my Paladin during his run through. Yet despite these being rich and powerful people, my Paladin had a rep of 20, and not because he was Lawful good either.
One last question, especially to those that choose the Evil path: How do you justify Imoen? Do you usually keep her in your party in BG1, and after Spellhold in BG2?
Roleplaying-wise, I would feel that my character would find Imoen weak and a liability, regardless of their shared childhood… In fact, that same shared childhood would be a constant reminder of the time where my character had to hide her true self, under the vigilance and control of Gorion and the Candlekeep monks. She doesn't need the constant judgment of Imoen. Perhaps she would even abandon Imoen in Spellhold: the final step into absolute evil.
…on the other hand, Imoen is absolutely vital to the plot, makes it much richer and adds depth to it all. I never went very far in ToB, but I imagine that Imoen is more present in terms of banter than, say, Jan or Edwin?
I still have to develop my character relationship with other NPCs, particularly Imoen. Right now, she is her childhood friend and even a psychotic, pathological murdered needs friends, right? Other NPCs might be mostly tools, but Imoen, for now, will remain a friend… at least until the time where "friends" no longer mean anything to the character. We'll see.
Here is the bio. Please be kind!
Khaleesi
Elf, Chaotic Evil Dragon Disciple
The first time that magic surged through Khaleesi's fingers, it set fire to a bookshelf in Gorion's study. It was during one of their long, boring classes on the subtleties of the arcane arts, when suddenly and uncontrollably, it happened, setting fire to all around her. Gorion quickly doused the flames and reassured her that she shouldn't be scared or frightened, that it was just an accident.
But she wasn't scared or frightened, she was enthralled. It was power like she never experienced before.
After that, Khaleesi spent her free time trying to replicate it, to produce the flames with her intent and not through the incantations that Gorion fruitlessly tried to teach her, finding that it was easy, almost natural to her… magic, it seemed, was hers to manipulate. Effortlessly, naturally.
Curiously enough, Gorion didn't seem all too pleased about this turn of events, even though he had tried for years, ever since Khaleesi was old enough, to teach her magic. But now that Khaleesi showed a natural talent to manipulate magical energy without the need for books or lessons, Gorion didn't seem very eager to teach her any more spells, only a few dull ones such as identifying unknown objects or protecting herself from evil. She was never allowed to reproduce the flames she had created in their first lessons, and he constantly warned her on the dangers of uncontrolled and unchecked magic. That power without wisdom was an evil thing.
Nonetheless, Khaleesi would try her powers when she knew she was alone, trying them out on the rats that dwelled in Reevor's storehouse (sometimes burning a cat or two in the process). During these experiments she found another curious thing: fire didn't seemed to make that much of an effect in her. Sure, she would get burned, but not as easily as everyone else, it seemed. She could stay extremely close to the flames, endure scorching hot water in her baths, touch hot pans without mitts. And when she did, in fact, get burned, she would heal extremely quickly.
She kept all of this from Gorion, of course. She kept most things from him these days, in fact. He was always strict but ever since that event at his study, he got even stricter, controlling, ever-present. Only with Imoen was she able to talk freely, almost at least, having one day cached a strange look on her face after she had describe in particular detail the joys of setting fire to a stray cat…
Then came the day of her departure from Candlekeep. She was gathering the things she needed for this unsuspected (and ill-fated) trip when she found herself attacked by a lowly thug by the name of Shank. She had to act quickly, thinking only on driving her attacker away, she produced a spell. It worked. The thug panicked, running away in fright. Khaleesi used the opportunity to draw her knife (she always liked knives, though them pretty), and hurled it at the assassin, striking him in the throat. She watched him with curiosity while he gagged in his own blood, feeling… calm. No, not calm, peaceful. Natural. She was excited by what she had done, she was exhilarated by her power to turn this lousy gutter-rat in a simpering mess, but watching him die produced a calmness, a content, that she had never experienced.
She ran away quickly from the house and the dead body. Only when one of the monks asked, with an alarmed look on his face, what happened, she realized that the assassin had cut her face right before she cast her spell: "just a scratch from a cat", she lied, without much thought.
But soon after another assassin made an attempt on her life. This one she never even bothered to learn the name. Faced with the same situation as before, all the fright, all the uncertainty faded away and this time, she was ready and she had a purposed. She tried the same spell, it worked once again but this time she approached the magically-scared thief, now huddled in a corner, grabbed his hair and cut his throat.
She stared at the blood, dripping down from his neck, and at that moment she knew, instinctively, what she was meant to do, what se was destined to do: murder.
By the end of that day, with Gorion lying dead in the ground, victim of an unknown armored figure, Khaleesi understood that he had died because he was weak… and he had tried to maker her weak, like him, by constantly holding her back.
That would never happen again.
———
Other character traits:
Dangerous, unpredictable, she uses her beauty and charisma to lead and persuade people to follow her.
Imoen is her only childhood friend, and her remaining connection to her innocence. Having her taken away would drive her further into madness.
She is attracted to women, however this is probably a form of narcissism, as she only truly loves herself. She will, however, and without remorse, play with men's hearts and make them do her bidding.
If I play an assassin, it's because he doesn't want her to find out about his secret Zhent mentor. She's inferior because she is only a thief with no honor - a troublemaker. Mechanically, that's no issue either; my typical assassin party has a second thief to handle traps and locks and Monty as multiclass halfling works well for that. (The other option is dualed Shar-Teel, who can also function as backup fighter.)
If jester, he never liked her to begin with - she's a better thief (he can barely pick a pocket). He'll send her to scout ahead and abandons her once she's attacked by the wolf, with a final "I told you you aren't suited for adventuring life, bitch!"
If cleric, she irritates charname because she's happy and cheerful and shows zero respect for death. Gorion's death is a spiritual revelation for charname and Imoen goes all "heya, it's me, Imoen!" To charname, that is like a clown jumping out of a casket on his father's funeral, so he'll dismiss her and never look back. He's way too distracted by Xzar's insights anyway.
In BG2, and having experienced a fair share of doppelgangers during BG1, assassin charname is too suspicious to keep Imoen around. She was free and had a key to the cell, despite being an inferior, lowly thief without honor or foresight. Hence something must be off, especially because she pretends to be his friend after not having seen him for such a long time. Same with Jaheira and the stranger rambling about hamsters.
NE Jester charname will team up with Imoen, Jaheira, Minsc and Yoshimo because he is a coward and needs cannon fodder to send into potentially dangerous rooms. Since they are all tools who blindly follow his orders, this works quite well. As soon as he finds the exit, he sneaks away alone to claim he made it out of the dungeon on his own.
CE Priest of Talos lets Imoen and Jaheira join because they both babble a lot about death. Usually, Jaheira will leave when finding Khalid's body because for some reason, she takes offense from charname asking more and more about Khalid's death. (Maybe that is because charname's inqueries are about as creepy as discussing your parents' sex life with your sibling. Maybe she's just overly sensitive.) It also becomes clear that Imoen is not interested in experiencing more death and would likely refuse to be killed and revived in the future. Charname will be indifferent to her capture, but very motivated to meet this Irenicus guy - he sounds like a wise, insightful person and charname would simply like to volunteer for said experiments.
After Spellhold:
LE Assassin: Still highly suspicious; thinks she will betray him and was controlled by Irenicus all along, if she isn't a doppelganger to begin with.
NE Jester: Kills her or sends her to the dungeon alone, expecting she will be killed, so she can't pester him about letting Irenicus get away. Charname totally defeated him, alone, while also saving his helpless companions. Blindfolded. With both hands tied to his back. And armed with nothing but a herring. Such a hero.
CE Priest of Talos: Still intrigued by Irenicus' experiments, he will either take Irenicus' word that Imoen's potential is exhausted - or try to do the same experiments, to gain the same insights and come closer to his ultimate goal (knowing everything there is to know about death). If option 1 - tell her to get lost; she's worthless and holds no more insights. If option 2 - torture/kill her and fail to revive her. Oops. Gotta try a different approach next time.
I usually take her along, not because she is integral to the plot, but because she is one of the most competent thieves in the game. Plus you get her early so you can mold her. And you can turn her to Wizard if you need one. There's lots to like and utilize (or manipulate if you so have a mind).
As for rescuing Imoen in BG2, it doesn't have to be sentimental. You could be a pure egotist. How *dare* Irenicus take Imoen from you? She *belongs* to your character! Regardless of how you feel about her, losing her is a symbolic slight to your repuation, and you must reclaim her to fix it.
The game gives you a number of other justifications. Irenicus claims to be unlocking your power, and you persue him to gain your birthright. Imoen would be a secondary concern here.
In BG1, Montaron is the best fit for an evil charname - he has all the qualities an evil person would look for in a thief. My jester sometimes takes Safana instead because she's charming, but no threat to his own charms. She's neutral, but she ran with pirates and therefore, she is probably not weak or hestitant when it comes to shadier approaches.
In BG2, there's Hexxat now - and she fits OP's charname perfectly, including being a love interest and capable thief you get early on. She won't hang behind in levels or be force-dualed either. With OP's charname being an arcane caster, a real thief is likely more important than an additional mage. And really, what's not to love about having an all evil party?
And as far as Love is concerned, "The heart wants what the heart wants."
and then there's Family.... Don't get me started.
But then again I also like having Xzar and Monty around, for the giggles. I never quite trust either one of them 'Because' they are evil and therefore always have to keep an eye on them at all times. That can sometimes be more tedious than the simple charms of a 'Sister'. But other times, I like the fact that they won't complain if we have to do a bit of wet work. So it's a draw in my mind.
I confess that I chose the name Khaleesi mosty because of the shared similarities between Daenerys (and the Targaryens) with the Dragon Disciple kit: "The Unburnt", "Mother of Dragons", etc… It was that or "Dracarys", for the fire breath
*However* I do feel like (as with all of George R. R. Martin's characters) there's a lot more complexity to Daenerys Targaryen than a do-gooder in her "Hero's Journey"… in fact, one could argue that Daenerys Targaryen is deep in the road towards Lawful Evil…
But I digress and I wouldn't want to be accused of being off-topic in my own thread!