Yeah, I think evil characters can get along just fine with good ones. But I like mixed parties, and even if I'm playing good I'll take some evil characters and if I'm playing evil I'll take a good character. It makes for a more interesting group dynamic. I think evil characters would actually like having some good characters around because they're less likely to slit your throat while you're sleeping.
Viconia is a mainstay of most of my parties. Regardless of alignment, I find a way to bring her in. If good, I think it is a chance to try and redeeme her. And if Evil, well.... And in both cases, try and get into her chainmail.
I've even completed the game with Viccy and Firecam in the party at the same time. Boy was that a challenge. They got quite explosive with each other at times (leading to several reloads at inopportune times).
Personally, I like the dynamic that was set up in the original Dragonlance novels, where the party was quite varied. It was mostly goods and neutrals, but Raistlin and Kitiara both were part of the group at points, so it was a truly varied bunch, ethically.
I think that type of thing 'Can' work. Not saying it is always the best or the most logical, but I think at the end of the day people are people and they like to socialize.
I don't need to share values or even trust people I hang out with in a pub, at least no trust that goes beyond common sense ("I trust them to not throw darts in my head when we play darts"). But charname is in permanent danger; assassins, powerful villains, random monsters. In such a situation, I would pick my company more carefully and would have to trust them with my life, which would be more than a hollow promise. There are enough situations where they really have to keep their word because my life is really in danger.
Would a good aligned character really want a stone cold killer to have his back, who may just go ahead and kill someone who insulted you? The good person would probably prefer to give the insulter the benefit of the doubt, assume it was a misunderstanding and talk things out. A bit late if all you have is the severed head.
Would an evil aligned character really want a bleeding heart to have his back, who may not strike in a crucial moment because he thinks he can talk it out with the insulter/attacker?
In life-and-death situations like charname's, I find it important to know that everyone is on the same page about such things. Why would I trust someone to defend me if they protest every single decision I made so far or object to my way to do things? Especially evil characters are prone to "my way is the only right way" thinking.
Sure, mixed parties can be interesting, but an office friendship in the real world doesn't quite compare to what's at stake for someone hunted by assassins and magic users in a fantasy world.
@KidCarnival - I am guessing that you have never been in any sort of armed forces or been in real combat. Believe me, the guys in your squad don't necessarily have anything in 'common' with you other than the fact that you all have to trust each other with your lives.
And again, the faces of alignment are many and varied. Alignment is supposed to be a facet of your personality, not the sum total of it. Admittedly the personalities that are shown in the NPCs tend to be a bit on the shallow side, but that doesn't mean that Charname needs to be.
Finally, I'd put some of my 'office friendships' up against any challenge in the world. Same with my Fraternity brothers. If you close yourself off to true friendship merely because you don't have commonality, you are missing out. all in my humble opinion.
But merely sharing an alignment with you doesn't mean someone will automatically have your back. There's more to their personality than alignment and many evil characters would happily betray other evildoers at the drop of a hat, and a competent fighter like Kivan wouldn't want some pacifist at his side either. It's too much of a generalization IMO to say that every evil or good character behaves the same way and will universally stand up for others of his own alignment while screwing over those who are not. As an adventurer friends are not easy to come by, especially competent ones, and if we work well enough as a team so what if we disagree in philosophy?
Also, as a game I find party dynamic to be important. I don't think we are aiming for strict realism here, and for the sake of a more interesting story some unlikely friends are welcome.
There are some interesting theories about group dynamics, and how being in a group with others can change how you (and they) behave and act. In some groups you're more likely to take a responsible or leadership role, but with a different group of people you might be more the group joker. It reminds me of doing group projects through University - people in one group might form very different perceptions of you from members of a different group.
Though this isn't really alignment it does illustrate that your interactions with others can be affected by those around you. Even if two people start out with similar social, political and economic views they may behave very differently as part of a larger social group.
Different people don't need to hold the same ideologies as one another to respect the other points of view, even if they are opposing points of view. And they can still be friends too boot.
As a normally Evil type, I'd much rather have Jaheira and Khalid around than Xzar and Monty. I know that the elven couple are less likely to stick a knife in my back, and they are less likely to suspect me of 'Evil doing' because they wouldn't see it coming.
I confess that I chose the name Khaleesi mosty because of the shared similarities between Daenerys (and the Targaryens) with the Dragon Disciple kit: "The Unburnt", "Mother of Dragons", etc… It was that or "Dracarys", for the fire breath
*However* I do feel like (as with all of George R. R. Martin's characters) there's a lot more complexity to Daenerys Targaryen than a do-gooder in her "Hero's Journey"… in fact, one could argue that Daenerys Targaryen is deep in the road towards Lawful Evil…
But I digress and I wouldn't want to be accused of being off-topic in my own thread!
You won't get accused of making Off-Topic comments in this forums For me Daenerys is Neutral Good or Lawful Neutral, I know that her goals are evil, but she is not so evil, she only kills slavers and those that she considers evil.
I don't necessarily think some characters are fully explained on the Good/Evil/Law/Chaos alignment scale. Daenerys Targaryen and Tyrion Lannister being two good examples.
Daenerys' ultimate goal is to reclaim the throne that was taken from her family. To do so using war could be seen as selfish and evil, or a lawful response to an uprising.
She is a populist ruler and takes actions to minimise suffering among her own people but has no qualms about waging aggressive wars and being ruthless (or even cruel) toward enemies. Also, while she governs fairly and tries to use changes to the laws to bring about positive effects she is personally impulsive and feels that as a Queen laws do not apply to her.
Complex characters, especially powerful ones, often fall outside the bounds we discuss as alignment.
Armed forces are not based on friendship. They aren't even based on choice. They are based on a common goal and other than that, you can't tell your superiors "umm, I don't get along with Private Ryan, can't you put me in a unit with my poker buddies instead?" School and work comes out as the same. You are thrown into a group of people you had no influence on. Naturally, you will get along with some members of this group and not with others. I doubt most people are friends with all their army or work or school buddies. You have a smallest common denomiator - you are all not opposed to armed combat; you all went for a career in the office supplies industry; you all grew up in the same area; you all went to a certain university with a certain goal. That can be enough to get along. It is statistically very possible to meet people you'd want as friends either way there. But you are also bound to meet some people you simply don't care for or don't get along with. You just can't cut ties and never see them again because it's not up to you who belongs to the group.
In BG, and group-based games in general, it is all up to charname. Charname can "fire" the "employee" he doesn't get along with, charname can take someone better suited along, charname can even create the ideal companion in multiplayer, if none of the NPCs work for him. There is way more choice than in a school, university or army because you can't create ideal people there.
Anyway, it can be interesting to play mixed groups and I have done so myself many times. I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm just saying that in this case, Hexxat and Monty make good and logical companions for this evil charname and are better suited than Imoen or Alora, for example. Sure there are evil types who do get along with them. Edwin gets along fine with Alora; my NE Jester has a habit to surround himself with people he deems influential and popular (i.e. take Keldorn and Nalia instead of Dorn and Viconia due to their social standing). In the end, it's up to OP and his charname what NPCs make good companions. Based on what he wrote, I'm voting for Hexxat being a better fit than Imoen, and just that. I'm not trying to put anyone's friendships down. I merely pick my friends differently and prefer them to share my values.
@KidCarnival - Yeah, um..... Wow. I'd suggest sometime that you go hang out with a group of off duty Marines from the same squad. You'll see the bond that grows between this bunch of guys who are thrown together through no other influence than their superiors put them there. That is EXACTLY the bond that I've been talking about.
And how exactly is that different from BG? You are on the run. You have no control over who you meet, and can not guarantee that they have anything in common with you. You MUST survive and often times must trust and rely upon these people to do it. Even if they are the types that you wouldn't normally like or want to hang out with. A bond forms. It's as simple as that.
Plus, as was pointed out before, common alignments do not in any way guarantee compatibility or any level of trust. Nor do they point to a lack of trust if they are miss-aligned. Alignment is only one aspect of a character's personality anyway.
Now I'll admit that if Xzar and Monty and Korgan were all sitting around a camp fire talking about disemboweling and other nasty stuff, Aerie (to throw a combination that could not exist) would probably be very uncomfortable with the topic. I'm not saying they would all be friends. But I am also not saying that they couldn't function well together and grow to trust and respect each other enough to live and survive and even thrive as a group (that couldn't exist).
See, I'm not American. To me, being a soldier is just a job. It's like saying "wow, you should hang out with a bunch of carpenters; now THAT is a brotherhood!" I don't get the glorification of US military like they are all Captain America and therefore better people with better ethics, morals and friendships. Just because they all signed up for the army, it doesn't make them capable of "better" or "deeper" friendships. I'm fairly certain a bunch of housewives who by random chance all live in the same street can form the same kind of bond. I know enough people who are or were in the military here and they were no different from people who work in retail, as waitress or as dog walker when it comes to their friendships.
In BG, you are hunted by assassins and fight monsters. You have to be careful who you trust - see Yoshimo, for example. If I'm a lawless villain, I don't trust a paladin to not deliver me to the authorities. It's as simple as that.
Alignment is Hooey. Just select the dialogue options that make the most sense to your vision of the character. Reputation is more an indication of how good or evil you are anyway.
I honestly can't think of anything LESS helpful to a question about alignment than "alignments are dumb, ignore them." Nobody cares about your inane opinion regarding the alignment system's quality.
@KidCarnival - Um, I'm not saying that at all (well maybe I am, but that wasn't my point). If you are in combat with a group of guys, regardless of your nationality, you HAVE to rely upon them to cover your back. Either you rely upon them, or you go crazy and die. That trust has to exist because, with life and death everything going on around you, no human can cover all of that by themselves. So you have to trust your squad. And if that trust doesn't exist, it develops quite quickly. or it doesn't and everyone dies.
This isn't about nationality, It isn't even about being in the Army (or other armed forces). It's about the realities of combat in a group. It doesn't matter if you have stuff in common with the other guys on your squad, a bond forms. It's human nature.
It is very similar in a lot of ways to the Helsinki syndrome. When people are put together in very high stress life and death situations, they bond. It's got nothing to do with who signed up for the army or what country they are from. In fact, it happens in any life or death combat situation and is in no way limited to Marines (which was my bad for mentioning).
if anyone wants to see a good 'Party' dynamic, check out the 70's Sci Fi TV show called Blake's 7. In this show, the main character, Blake is what could arguably be considered the epitome of 'Lawful Good'. he always does the good and right thing, although they have a very serious twist on that towards the end of season 2. They also have a Smuggler, who is probably Neutral good. They have a Thief who is pretty Chaotic Neutral. And then there's Avon who is evil and selfish and megalomaniacal and ultimately ends up leading the group.
they are all thrown together because they are being hunted by this corrupt and oppressive totalitarian 'Federation'. Someone called it 'Robin Hood in space', but it is so much more and better than that.
It's a 70's BBC production so special effects are pretty non-existent, but it's still awesomness. check it out if you get the chance.
You miss my point. I keep saying that soldiers in the real world do not have a choice who they fight with. They have to trust whoever stands next to them. They do not have the liberty charname has - to create the ideal ally or to select between a pool of companions. A real life person can't say "meh, our sniper is kind of a douche and quotes Breaking Bad too much, let's ditch him and pick up that dude with the bow over there". Charname can because in most cases, there will be another NPC who can fill the same role in the party without being the douche who quotes Breaking Bad all the time. Don't like Xzar because he's insane and evil, but need someone to cast spells? Tell him to get lost and recruit Neera or Dynaheir. Think Ajantis is a pansy, but need a damage dealer? Ditch him and pick up Dorn or Shar-Teel. That's a natural progression for a party - charname takes any help he can get after losing Gorion (or becomes paranoid and suspicious of everyone), gets to know the people in his party and sorts out who can't be trusted or isn't a good fit otherwise on the way. Those who survive the weeding out process will become friends and create a bond, but not just because they are there, because they were not deemed a bad fit, too.
I didn't miss that point. But (a) who says Charname has the option to pick and choose his companions? he/she is pretty much chucked in the deep end and has to sink or swim. Right out of the gate (literally) you get Imoen (neutral good) and Xzar/Monty (Evil) and you are told where to find Jaheira and Khalid (goodish neutral and good) to round out your party. I see no choice there. And you really have to go looking to find more.
And (b) my point was that you don't need to pick and choose your companions 'Based on alignment alone' or even common backgrounds. That bonds and friendships that you have continually discounted can form between the most unlikely of people.
Charname has the option along the way. If you put "you" in the shoes of charname, and "you" are presumably a person with some common sense and danger awareness of such a situation, you'd probably keep Imoen because you know her, ask Monty and Xzar to go to FAI with you because they offer help, then take Jaheira and Khalid because Gorion told you they can be trusted. From there, you'd probably put more faith in Imoen, Jaheira and Khalid and hence side with them when the fight with Monty and Xzar comes up. As you travel, even if you'd go strictly by the story and main quests, you are bound to meet some others (Xan and Yeslick, most notably, are hard to miss) who your current companions wouldn't object to.
Charname doesn't have to go looking for more companions. All of them offer to join you; some - like Neera or Viconia - ask for your help or help you unasked (Rasaad, if not approached first, helps you against Nimbul) and draw you into their issues (I mean mechanically; they approach you and iniate the conversation, unlike Minsc or Edwin).
So if you don't bother with sidequests and roleplay the encounters during the main story, you'll have:
- Imoen, auto-joins - possibly Monty & Xzar, by the logic of common sense to take any help you can get - Jaheira/Khalid, by roleplaying story and following plot - likely Neera, by being approached by her - Dorn, by exploring FAI/main story - Xan, by exploring main quest area - Rasaad, by approaching/helping during Nimbul encounter - possibly Baeloth, by approaching you while searching bandit camp (depending on your choices how to get there) - Viconia, by approaching you while searching bandit camp (she's quite close to the edge of the map leading there) - likely Faldorn, by being pointed to her during main quest in Cloakwood - likely Yeslick, by exploring main story area
That's more than your party can hold. Charname can't know there are only 5 slots, sure, so the element of conciously "trading A for B" isn't there. But with the Harpers and Zhents, charname makes a choice (or has it made by them) and learns that not all people who want to help him get along with each other.
Comments
I've even completed the game with Viccy and Firecam in the party at the same time. Boy was that a challenge. They got quite explosive with each other at times (leading to several reloads at inopportune times).
Personally, I like the dynamic that was set up in the original Dragonlance novels, where the party was quite varied. It was mostly goods and neutrals, but Raistlin and Kitiara both were part of the group at points, so it was a truly varied bunch, ethically.
I think that type of thing 'Can' work. Not saying it is always the best or the most logical, but I think at the end of the day people are people and they like to socialize.
Would a good aligned character really want a stone cold killer to have his back, who may just go ahead and kill someone who insulted you? The good person would probably prefer to give the insulter the benefit of the doubt, assume it was a misunderstanding and talk things out. A bit late if all you have is the severed head.
Would an evil aligned character really want a bleeding heart to have his back, who may not strike in a crucial moment because he thinks he can talk it out with the insulter/attacker?
In life-and-death situations like charname's, I find it important to know that everyone is on the same page about such things. Why would I trust someone to defend me if they protest every single decision I made so far or object to my way to do things? Especially evil characters are prone to "my way is the only right way" thinking.
Sure, mixed parties can be interesting, but an office friendship in the real world doesn't quite compare to what's at stake for someone hunted by assassins and magic users in a fantasy world.
And again, the faces of alignment are many and varied. Alignment is supposed to be a facet of your personality, not the sum total of it. Admittedly the personalities that are shown in the NPCs tend to be a bit on the shallow side, but that doesn't mean that Charname needs to be.
Finally, I'd put some of my 'office friendships' up against any challenge in the world. Same with my Fraternity brothers. If you close yourself off to true friendship merely because you don't have commonality, you are missing out. all in my humble opinion.
Also, as a game I find party dynamic to be important. I don't think we are aiming for strict realism here, and for the sake of a more interesting story some unlikely friends are welcome.
Though this isn't really alignment it does illustrate that your interactions with others can be affected by those around you. Even if two people start out with similar social, political and economic views they may behave very differently as part of a larger social group.
Different people don't need to hold the same ideologies as one another to respect the other points of view, even if they are opposing points of view. And they can still be friends too boot.
As a normally Evil type, I'd much rather have Jaheira and Khalid around than Xzar and Monty. I know that the elven couple are less likely to stick a knife in my back, and they are less likely to suspect me of 'Evil doing' because they wouldn't see it coming.
Too chaotic!
I kill lots of random people when I play CE, so, my rep ends VERY low. You won't get accused of making Off-Topic comments in this forums
For me Daenerys is Neutral Good or Lawful Neutral, I know that her goals are evil, but she is not so evil, she only kills slavers and those that she considers evil.
Daenerys' ultimate goal is to reclaim the throne that was taken from her family. To do so using war could be seen as selfish and evil, or a lawful response to an uprising.
She is a populist ruler and takes actions to minimise suffering among her own people but has no qualms about waging aggressive wars and being ruthless (or even cruel) toward enemies. Also, while she governs fairly and tries to use changes to the laws to bring about positive effects she is personally impulsive and feels that as a Queen laws do not apply to her.
Complex characters, especially powerful ones, often fall outside the bounds we discuss as alignment.
You have a smallest common denomiator - you are all not opposed to armed combat; you all went for a career in the office supplies industry; you all grew up in the same area; you all went to a certain university with a certain goal. That can be enough to get along. It is statistically very possible to meet people you'd want as friends either way there. But you are also bound to meet some people you simply don't care for or don't get along with. You just can't cut ties and never see them again because it's not up to you who belongs to the group.
In BG, and group-based games in general, it is all up to charname. Charname can "fire" the "employee" he doesn't get along with, charname can take someone better suited along, charname can even create the ideal companion in multiplayer, if none of the NPCs work for him. There is way more choice than in a school, university or army because you can't create ideal people there.
Anyway, it can be interesting to play mixed groups and I have done so myself many times. I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm just saying that in this case, Hexxat and Monty make good and logical companions for this evil charname and are better suited than Imoen or Alora, for example.
Sure there are evil types who do get along with them. Edwin gets along fine with Alora; my NE Jester has a habit to surround himself with people he deems influential and popular (i.e. take Keldorn and Nalia instead of Dorn and Viconia due to their social standing). In the end, it's up to OP and his charname what NPCs make good companions. Based on what he wrote, I'm voting for Hexxat being a better fit than Imoen, and just that. I'm not trying to put anyone's friendships down. I merely pick my friends differently and prefer them to share my values.
And how exactly is that different from BG? You are on the run. You have no control over who you meet, and can not guarantee that they have anything in common with you. You MUST survive and often times must trust and rely upon these people to do it. Even if they are the types that you wouldn't normally like or want to hang out with. A bond forms. It's as simple as that.
Plus, as was pointed out before, common alignments do not in any way guarantee compatibility or any level of trust. Nor do they point to a lack of trust if they are miss-aligned. Alignment is only one aspect of a character's personality anyway.
Now I'll admit that if Xzar and Monty and Korgan were all sitting around a camp fire talking about disemboweling and other nasty stuff, Aerie (to throw a combination that could not exist) would probably be very uncomfortable with the topic. I'm not saying they would all be friends. But I am also not saying that they couldn't function well together and grow to trust and respect each other enough to live and survive and even thrive as a group (that couldn't exist).
In BG, you are hunted by assassins and fight monsters. You have to be careful who you trust - see Yoshimo, for example. If I'm a lawless villain, I don't trust a paladin to not deliver me to the authorities. It's as simple as that.
This isn't about nationality, It isn't even about being in the Army (or other armed forces). It's about the realities of combat in a group. It doesn't matter if you have stuff in common with the other guys on your squad, a bond forms. It's human nature.
It is very similar in a lot of ways to the Helsinki syndrome. When people are put together in very high stress life and death situations, they bond. It's got nothing to do with who signed up for the army or what country they are from. In fact, it happens in any life or death combat situation and is in no way limited to Marines (which was my bad for mentioning).
Play with korgan and you will see it in a new light.
he gets along fine with keldorn the paladin. He hates people who hurt children.
On the other hand a simple insult can make him kill his party. He loves gold. But much more than gold he loves fighting and killing.
He wants to keep his word to the cowled wizards when the bounty upon valygar is given but does not object to much
they are all thrown together because they are being hunted by this corrupt and oppressive totalitarian 'Federation'. Someone called it 'Robin Hood in space', but it is so much more and better than that.
It's a 70's BBC production so special effects are pretty non-existent, but it's still awesomness. check it out if you get the chance.
Don't like Xzar because he's insane and evil, but need someone to cast spells? Tell him to get lost and recruit Neera or Dynaheir. Think Ajantis is a pansy, but need a damage dealer? Ditch him and pick up Dorn or Shar-Teel. That's a natural progression for a party - charname takes any help he can get after losing Gorion (or becomes paranoid and suspicious of everyone), gets to know the people in his party and sorts out who can't be trusted or isn't a good fit otherwise on the way. Those who survive the weeding out process will become friends and create a bond, but not just because they are there, because they were not deemed a bad fit, too.
And (b) my point was that you don't need to pick and choose your companions 'Based on alignment alone' or even common backgrounds. That bonds and friendships that you have continually discounted can form between the most unlikely of people.
Charname doesn't have to go looking for more companions. All of them offer to join you; some - like Neera or Viconia - ask for your help or help you unasked (Rasaad, if not approached first, helps you against Nimbul) and draw you into their issues (I mean mechanically; they approach you and iniate the conversation, unlike Minsc or Edwin).
So if you don't bother with sidequests and roleplay the encounters during the main story, you'll have:
- Imoen, auto-joins
- possibly Monty & Xzar, by the logic of common sense to take any help you can get
- Jaheira/Khalid, by roleplaying story and following plot
- likely Neera, by being approached by her
- Dorn, by exploring FAI/main story
- Xan, by exploring main quest area
- Rasaad, by approaching/helping during Nimbul encounter
- possibly Baeloth, by approaching you while searching bandit camp (depending on your choices how to get there)
- Viconia, by approaching you while searching bandit camp (she's quite close to the edge of the map leading there)
- likely Faldorn, by being pointed to her during main quest in Cloakwood
- likely Yeslick, by exploring main story area
That's more than your party can hold. Charname can't know there are only 5 slots, sure, so the element of conciously "trading A for B" isn't there. But with the Harpers and Zhents, charname makes a choice (or has it made by them) and learns that not all people who want to help him get along with each other.