when I bring mazzy along I also give her grand mastery in axes, kind of like the female version of korgan, and best part is, already starts with 18 dex, and with machine of lum the mad, and the axe of the unyielding, her con gets bumped up to 18, so she can be a great tank used that way ( its not uncommon for her to hit over 200 HP in my games in ToB)
I disagree. - Viconia, being a single class cleric, is not a powerful character. She has 18 wisdom but that only amounts to a few low level spells which clerics generally have an excess of. Anomen for example, despite his lower wisdom, is a more powerful character with his other stats and fighter levels. - Similarly, Hexxat is a single class thief which is not a powerful character. - Korgan is a good tank in some ways due to his immunities and saving throws, but in terms of being a 'classical' tank and absorbing melee punishment, he's nothing special.
-Viconia has Magic Resistance 65%, I think? Cannot remember. And Command Undead which makes undead into allies. Also huge Dex which makes a better archer than Anomen and better tank with STR gloves which you find many.
I don't agree with the idea that Viconia isn't powerful however Viconia's definitely not a better "tank" (in the mmo sense) than Anomen. Sure Anomen has less dexterity but he has a lot better health. The lowest level you can acquire Anomen has him start off with 86 health. Viconia's lowest level has 42 (and both Anomen and Viconia are level 8 clerics in this example).
I disagree. - Viconia, being a single class cleric, is not a powerful character. She has 18 wisdom but that only amounts to a few low level spells which clerics generally have an excess of. Anomen for example, despite his lower wisdom, is a more powerful character with his other stats and fighter levels. - Similarly, Hexxat is a single class thief which is not a powerful character. - Korgan is a good tank in some ways due to his immunities and saving throws, but in terms of being a 'classical' tank and absorbing melee punishment, he's nothing special.
I agree very much with the first two, but Korgan does have high constitution and insane shorty saves. He also starts out with high strength and doesn't necessarily require a belt to function. On top of that, he already has grandmastery in axes when you get him, and one of the best early weapons is a +3 axe (Frostreaver). His berserking makes him able to withstand some of the abilities he can't defend against with his crazy saves.
It's the combination of everything that makes him so good. The closest thing to Korgan on the good side is probably Mazzy, and honestly I think she's almost as good. It's the weapon proficiencies that make the difference for me. Short swords and bows vs axes and hammers.
@kaffekoppen I don't disagree with what you said (and you haven't really disagreed with what I said): He's good at tanking several things due to saves and immunities, but average against general melee damage in that he has good con, only a small dex bonus and no spellcasting to get the likes of Armour of Faith. His ability to get GM contributes to his offensive ability, not his tanking ability. He is a strong character, but he is not 'too overpowered' as the OP stated.
I disagree. - Viconia, being a single class cleric, is not a powerful character. She has 18 wisdom but that only amounts to a few low level spells which clerics generally have an excess of. Anomen for example, despite his lower wisdom, is a more powerful character with his other stats and fighter levels. - Similarly, Hexxat is a single class thief which is not a powerful character. - Korgan is a good tank in some ways due to his immunities and saving throws, but in terms of being a 'classical' tank and absorbing melee punishment, he's nothing special.
-Viconia has Magic Resistance 65%, I think? Cannot remember. And Command Undead which makes undead into allies. Also huge Dex which makes a better archer than Anomen and better tank with STR gloves which you find many. -Hexxat is only Thief in the game except Jan that can advance Thief skills. She levels up faster and has much better STR for backstabs. Plus other minor stuff. -Korgan only needs a DEX item to make him the best tank in the game. Then give him Crom Faeyr and see him deal as well as take tons of punishment. Plus great HP and shorty saving throws. I'm not sure if there's a better tank than him, without magical means (spells etc).
@Archaos Re Viconia: Giving a strength enhancing item doesn't make a character a better tank (except the ability to equip a full plate, which she can't actually do without a strength boost) it makes them better at dealing damage but her inability to generate extra apr will always hamper her as a damage dealer. Re Hexxat: None of that stuff makes up for the fact that single class thieves are not powerful. Her fast leveling doesn't make much difference because you end up with excesses of thief points well before the end of SoA. High str would be great if it multiplied in a backstab. Re Korgan: But many other characters do have magical means. As I said above I think he's a good character, but not 'too overpowered' as the OP stated.
Let me give Edwin as an example of what *could* be argued as being overpowered relative to other classes in the game, given the fact that arcane users are already the most powerful. Edwin vs a generic mage. Cons: - No True Sight, which can be covered by other arcane and divine casters and two items. - Can't equip Amulet of Power. Pros: - *Three* bonus spell slots per level. This is huge.
@ryuken: Yes, we really do agree, just elaborating. Edwin "cheats" and is indeed overpowered, but it's not really enough to make the game much easier when you're evil.
The downside of being evil is a bit silly. Reputation is incredibly easy to manage, so the only thing left is the annoyance of having to do so because they forgot to give you evil ways to solve the quests.
I'd argue that the only real overpowered character in the game is Edwin because of his bonus spells from his amulet. Everyone else is pretty well in line for the most part.
I'd argue that the only real overpowered character in the game is Edwin because of his bonus spells from his amulet. Everyone else is pretty well in line for the most part.
Until you get Improved Alacrity (late SoA) you can only cast 1 spell/round, which limits how much more Edwin can really do compared to the other mages in the game. However, his party conflicts make it so that he can't be used with some of the better characters (Keldorn, Valygar, Neera, and Minsc all have some form of a party conflict with him) and his dexterity is pretty low compared to the other mages. So I'd say he's pretty balanced.
Two extra level eight and nine spells still sounds pretty powerful. You can make the same argument about conflicts against Keldorn, since you cannot get the best mage, the best cleric and now the best (if you like them pure) thief in the game if you recruit him.
It is a lot. He's overpowered when you first get a new tier of spells, but it evens out a bit eventually because you really only need so many spell slots for any given fight. At least without SCS or Ascension, but I don't think those are balanced anyway.
when I bring mazzy along I also give her grand mastery in axes
As in you cheat it, or you spend the time getting it up? I'm unsure she even gets enough proficencies for the latter!
Because my main character in this game is an archer I found her proficency in short bow useless, making Mazzy useless too. I guess I found Sarevok useless also - since he has two handed swords and I have Keldorn with me.
In fact it's pretty perculiar that all the best swords are longswords (aside from Carsomyr) but none of the NPCs are particularly proficent in them.
Mazzy also has a better alignment than Korgan... words cannot express how disappointed I was when I found out he couldn't use Azuredge. And he gets blasted by Aerie's Smite Evil a lot but that does explain why he hates her.
when I bring mazzy along I also give her grand mastery in axes
As in you cheat it, or you spend the time getting it up? I'm unsure she even gets enough proficencies for the latter!
In my experience she gets enough over the course of the game for like... one and a half grand masteries and two weapon fighting on top of her Short Bow skill.
Assuming a party run Mazzy will reach level 20 in SoA and 32 in ToB giving her 6 or 7 pips. 7 only if you pick her up first thing - so only then do you have a chance for another GM plus 2 weapon fighting and you'll get your GM only at 5.5 mio XP so really really late in ToB.
Hexxat's backstabs surpasses everything, her minimum roll with Arebane's Short Sword is 11, so 11x5=55, lots pf damage.
@Taear ToB Keldorn has Long Sword proficiency, and changing NPC's proficiencies a little don't seems like cheating to me, I prefer Neera to use Darts, Dorn Haldberds instead of Bastard Swords and Hexxat short swords, I am not breaking the character's story by making Dorn unproficient with THS (for example) or Neera with staffs.
Hexxat is DAMN TOO OP (and I am a power gamer!), 20/20/14/12/14/18 (whatever!), she has a HP minimum of 1, so if you make the talk action and cancel every round, she can be hit again and again without loosing much. She regenerates, she has poison immunity, not to mention an extra Bag of Holding that you can get in Chapter Two, if ANYTHING I can say that breaks the game, it is Hexxat. And not being able to stand in the sun? REST!! She has no cons! (Unless you count good NPCs attacking her a con).
Hexxat's backstabs surpasses everything, her minimum roll with Arebane's Short Sword is 11, so 11x5=55, lots pf damage.
@Taear ToB Keldorn has Long Sword proficiency, and changing NPC's proficiencies a little don't seems like cheating to me, I prefer Neera to use Darts, Dorn Haldberds instead of Bastard Swords and Hexxat short swords, I am not breaking the character's story by making Dorn unproficient with THS (for example) or Neera with staffs.
@CrevsDaak are you sure on that backstab damage? I though strength was applied after multiplier?
The main problem i have for good character is the lack of single class characters.
Multi and Dual are too powerful so i try to avoid them. For fighter classes it's OK (keldorn, mazzy, minsc,...) For mages, neera only (but wildmage + no-reload = not so good) For cleric, cernd (bah) For thief : no one
As for Anomen versus viconia, my preference definitely goes to Viconia.
Sure Anomen is a better fighter but quite frankly, when you other fighters have 10 attack/round, the 2 attacks of anomen is completely neglectable.
What makes viconia truly better is her magic resistance. You can get close or even reach permanent 100% MR. This, especially in a no or minimal reload, is unvaluable.
Hexxat's backstabs surpasses everything, her minimum roll with Arebane's Short Sword is 11, so 11x5=55, lots pf damage.
@Taear ToB Keldorn has Long Sword proficiency, and changing NPC's proficiencies a little don't seems like cheating to me, I prefer Neera to use Darts, Dorn Haldberds instead of Bastard Swords and Hexxat short swords, I am not breaking the character's story by making Dorn unproficient with THS (for example) or Neera with staffs.
@CrevsDaak are you sure on that backstab damage? I though strength was applied after multiplier?
Yea strength damage bonuses are applied after the multiplier.
Hexxat is DAMN TOO OP (and I am a power gamer!), 20/20/14/12/14/18 (whatever!), she has a HP minimum of 1, so if you make the talk action and cancel every round, she can be hit again and again without loosing much. She regenerates, she has poison immunity, not to mention an extra Bag of Holding that you can get in Chapter Two, if ANYTHING I can say that breaks the game, it is Hexxat. And not being able to stand in the sun? REST!! She has no cons! (Unless you count good NPCs attacking her a con).
Not really. She is the most powerful single classed thief. But she is just that, a single classed thief, and all single classed thieves are weaker than multi or duel classed thieves. So Jan is the more powerful CHARACTER. And if you are going to use exploits, give him the staff of cheesy perma-invisibility.
Pretty much... Dorn has rivals in BG2 but I found him to be completely unstoppable in BG1. With Viccy, Hexxat and Edwin all great within their class, I'd say that evil parties get the best pure-class characters but lose something in terms of versatility, as none of these characters are multi-class and the humans (and technically human vampire) have the wrong stats for dualling.
I've been playing through BG2 with Korgan and Dorn in the same party, and Korgan simply mops the floor with Dorn (four or five times as many kills). Str 19 is a significant boon in BG1, but with all the gear in BG2, it's a case of 19? Is that all!? Added to that, a maximum of 2* in weapons really starts to hurt, and the slower leveling makes him at least a full level behind. And being immune to negative levels isn't as good as being immune to almost everything. Dorn is relegated to anti-mage archer.
Oh yes, and doing his quests pretty much wrecks an evil-with-good-PR playthrough.
@elminster@Stasis_Sword I didn't know that, was that changed, right? I have different remembers of vanilla..... (200+ damage with an Assassin->Fighter with 20 STR, 1d6+12 we have a min of 13, plus STR 21, with 4 points from Specialization and Gauntlets of Specialization 25 dmg minimum, 25x7=175, with a max of 30x7 we are capped at 210).
@Fardragon I never heard of Jan having min HP. I really know Jan Jansen is the most cheesiest NPC in SoA and ToB, but he is not OP, he can be used in a OP way, his stats are just OK for him, he might have lots of OP stuff, but, Hexxat has a min HP effect on, she is immortal, being a thief makes her to be an ultra-exploiter, she can use the Staff of The Ram for a ultra Backstab, her STR bonus to THAC0 makes her a little bit more worth while in the front line, she also gets a +3 to ranged THAC0, and she has no real penalties, Jan is unable to cast necromancy spells (unless from a scroll with UAI), he has a low STR (9/16/15/16/10 I think, not quite sure) and not the best DEX, his CON. Gives him nice save bonuses, but, have I mentioned that Hexxat is immune to poison? And I haven't started to use Hexxat with eploits.
I dunno, I found Hexxat to be pretty, well… weak. Her stats don't really grant her that much of a bonus. Her Strength is goo for backstabs and carrying stuff, to be sure, but she's really not that powerful. I think people look at 20 Str/Dex and go 'OMG' but because of the way the stats taper off after 19 they aren't especially good. If she could dual-class into Fighter, that would be one thing, but as a single-class Thief without any kit abilities or anything, she's really not that OP. Her immunities are nice but she's so insanely squishy anyway it doesn't much matter.
Also any character is OP with exploits, so they aren't really worth talking about.
@elminster@Stasis_Sword I didn't know that, was that changed, right? I have different remembers of vanilla..... (200+ damage with an Assassin->Fighter with 20 STR, 1d6+12 we have a min of 13, plus STR 21, with 4 points from Specialization and Gauntlets of Specialization 25 dmg minimum, 25x7=175, with a max of 30x7 we are capped at 210).
Comments
Re Viconia: Giving a strength enhancing item doesn't make a character a better tank (except the ability to equip a full plate, which she can't actually do without a strength boost) it makes them better at dealing damage but her inability to generate extra apr will always hamper her as a damage dealer.
Re Hexxat: None of that stuff makes up for the fact that single class thieves are not powerful. Her fast leveling doesn't make much difference because you end up with excesses of thief points well before the end of SoA. High str would be great if it multiplied in a backstab.
Re Korgan: But many other characters do have magical means. As I said above I think he's a good character, but not 'too overpowered' as the OP stated.
Let me give Edwin as an example of what *could* be argued as being overpowered relative to other classes in the game, given the fact that arcane users are already the most powerful. Edwin vs a generic mage.
Cons:
- No True Sight, which can be covered by other arcane and divine casters and two items.
- Can't equip Amulet of Power.
Pros:
- *Three* bonus spell slots per level. This is huge.
The downside of being evil is a bit silly. Reputation is incredibly easy to manage, so the only thing left is the annoyance of having to do so because they forgot to give you evil ways to solve the quests.
Because my main character in this game is an archer I found her proficency in short bow useless, making Mazzy useless too. I guess I found Sarevok useless also - since he has two handed swords and I have Keldorn with me.
In fact it's pretty perculiar that all the best swords are longswords (aside from Carsomyr) but none of the NPCs are particularly proficent in them.
Korgan is great but he works with almost all good parties so is not an evil exclusive.
I am one of the few hexxat supporters because her backstabs are about as good as possible and I like how many hla traps she gets in minimal resting.
Mazzy if you go straight for her out of chateau irenicus you get her before the points in short sword so she can use foebane or FOA and be awesome.
All in all evil and good is pretty balanced.
@Taear ToB Keldorn has Long Sword proficiency, and changing NPC's proficiencies a little don't seems like cheating to me, I prefer Neera to use Darts, Dorn Haldberds instead of Bastard Swords and Hexxat short swords, I am not breaking the character's story by making Dorn unproficient with THS (for example) or Neera with staffs.
And not being able to stand in the sun? REST!! She has no cons! (Unless you count good NPCs attacking her a con).
derp... misread
You've must have misunderstood my ultra-custom-word "Unproficient" :P
Multi and Dual are too powerful so i try to avoid them.
For fighter classes it's OK (keldorn, mazzy, minsc,...)
For mages, neera only (but wildmage + no-reload = not so good)
For cleric, cernd (bah)
For thief : no one
As for Anomen versus viconia, my preference definitely goes to Viconia.
Sure Anomen is a better fighter but quite frankly, when you other fighters have 10 attack/round, the 2 attacks of anomen is completely neglectable.
What makes viconia truly better is her magic resistance. You can get close or even reach permanent 100% MR. This, especially in a no or minimal reload, is unvaluable.
Oh yes, and doing his quests pretty much wrecks an evil-with-good-PR playthrough.
Also any character is OP with exploits, so they aren't really worth talking about.
Staff of the Ram +6 does 13-18 damage.
**** in quarterstaffs adds 4 damage
Gauntlets of Specialization adds 2 damage.
Assassin bonus adds 1 damage
* Two-handed style adds 1 damage
So thats 21-26 damage.
x7 thats 147-182.
+8 damage (20 strength bonus)
means 155-190