Dwarves Versus Halflings, or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Bilbo
Pokota
Member Posts: 858
Okay, before I go any further: Halflings are better at thievery altogether, hands-down, no questions asked.
With that said... I saw a kitpack in development a while back where one of the new thief kits was Technician, where the bonus was extra thieving points and the penalty was no backstab. Which is perfect for me as I never actually use stealth (and by extension, backstab) because there are better, more reliable ways of pulling it off for when I do actually need to be sneaky in a low level game like BG. Plus, I fell in love with traps during my F>C game (Imoen never needed spells, her traps were that useful) and decided that I wanted to play around with traps some more.
Ignoring the obvious "Why don't you play a Bounty Hunter then?" question (I will be doing a Bounty Hunter later on in the year), I'm actually going to address the real point of this thread: Halfling Thieves versus Dwarven Thieves. Does the 2 point difference in Dexterity make enough of a difference to negate the dwarf's innate bonus to basically all of the thief skills I actually use?
Again, I'm ignoring the stealth skills - the halfling wins hands down when they're considered. Even though a Dwarf would arguably have better backstab potential since you can reach 19 strength with a dwarf, a halfling can stealth more reliably and really, if you're not backstabbing (Assassin, and arguably Shadowdancer) and you're not teching (Basically every other thief ever), what are you using a thief for?
(The following all reference Play It Hardcore: the Thief entry under Classes and Kits and the Dexterity entry under Races and Stats, and all assume a trueclass thief)
Halflings get an innate +5 pickpocket, +5 open locks, +5 find traps, +10 move silently, and +15 hide in shadows, with no racial bonuses to detect illusion or set traps. +40 in racial bonuses, though only +15 if you don't use stealth.
Dwarves get an innate +10 open locks, +15 find traps, +5 detect illusion, and +10 set traps, with no racial bonuses to pick pockets, hide in shadows, and move silently. Since the dwarf has no innate bonuses to the stealth skills, the dwarf is +40 in racial bonuses regardless of whether you play stealthily or not.
Just by racial bonuses alone, the Halfling favors stealthy play while the Dwarf favors technical play. But the Dwarf's dexterity generates at 17 due to a racial penalty, while the Halfling generates at 19 due to a racial bonus (we can safely ignore the strength part of the equation - the reduction of stealth skill in a dwarf, just from the racial bonus spread, means that the Halfling will always have the higher potential damage in BG1 due to more reliable stealth (and therefore backstabbery) regardless of the 1 point strength difference.
So how much of a difference does dexterity make?
A Dwarf with 17 Dexterity has +20 open locks, +15 find traps, +5 pickpocket, +5 move silently, +5 hide in shadows, +5 detect illusion, and +10 set traps. A starting total bonus of +65, +55 discounting stealth, plus -3 AC and +2 to ranged THAC0.
A Halfling with 17 Dexterity (19 Dexterity values will be in parentheses so that I don't have to write this a third time) has +15(+25) open locks, +5(+15) find traps, +10(+25) pickpocket, +15(+25) move silently, +20(+30) hide in shadows, (and +10 find traps), with no bonus to detect illusion. A starting total bonus of +65(+120), +30(+65) discounting stealth, plus -3(-4) AC and +2(+3) ranged THAC0... unless it's a sling in which case it's +3(+4).
So while the Halfling is still numerically superior once Dexterity comes into play, which one you should use really depends on how you want to use your thief. They're equal in trap finding and trap setting and the dwarf actually has a slight advantage against mages due to 5% in detect illusion that a halfling will always have to spend 5 to match... though the Halfling is superior in basically everything else, (only by 5 in open locks, but significantly in PP and the stealths). Where a dwarf thief would shine (so to speak) is less time wasted between rests as anything with 19 con is healing fully in 8 hours anyway, and 20 con is just overkill even with a warrior class.
And with all that said, I still fully intend to play a dwarf swashbuckler as my next serious BG1 character (since I can't play a technician yet and the potential to get 5/2 APR in shortbows without sacrificing dwarven thievery shenanigans is very appealing)
(If my math or information is wrong, please correct me as I'm slightly tired and slightly braindead as I type this.)
With that said... I saw a kitpack in development a while back where one of the new thief kits was Technician, where the bonus was extra thieving points and the penalty was no backstab. Which is perfect for me as I never actually use stealth (and by extension, backstab) because there are better, more reliable ways of pulling it off for when I do actually need to be sneaky in a low level game like BG. Plus, I fell in love with traps during my F>C game (Imoen never needed spells, her traps were that useful) and decided that I wanted to play around with traps some more.
Ignoring the obvious "Why don't you play a Bounty Hunter then?" question (I will be doing a Bounty Hunter later on in the year), I'm actually going to address the real point of this thread: Halfling Thieves versus Dwarven Thieves. Does the 2 point difference in Dexterity make enough of a difference to negate the dwarf's innate bonus to basically all of the thief skills I actually use?
Again, I'm ignoring the stealth skills - the halfling wins hands down when they're considered. Even though a Dwarf would arguably have better backstab potential since you can reach 19 strength with a dwarf, a halfling can stealth more reliably and really, if you're not backstabbing (Assassin, and arguably Shadowdancer) and you're not teching (Basically every other thief ever), what are you using a thief for?
(The following all reference Play It Hardcore: the Thief entry under Classes and Kits and the Dexterity entry under Races and Stats, and all assume a trueclass thief)
Halflings get an innate +5 pickpocket, +5 open locks, +5 find traps, +10 move silently, and +15 hide in shadows, with no racial bonuses to detect illusion or set traps. +40 in racial bonuses, though only +15 if you don't use stealth.
Dwarves get an innate +10 open locks, +15 find traps, +5 detect illusion, and +10 set traps, with no racial bonuses to pick pockets, hide in shadows, and move silently. Since the dwarf has no innate bonuses to the stealth skills, the dwarf is +40 in racial bonuses regardless of whether you play stealthily or not.
Just by racial bonuses alone, the Halfling favors stealthy play while the Dwarf favors technical play. But the Dwarf's dexterity generates at 17 due to a racial penalty, while the Halfling generates at 19 due to a racial bonus (we can safely ignore the strength part of the equation - the reduction of stealth skill in a dwarf, just from the racial bonus spread, means that the Halfling will always have the higher potential damage in BG1 due to more reliable stealth (and therefore backstabbery) regardless of the 1 point strength difference.
So how much of a difference does dexterity make?
A Dwarf with 17 Dexterity has +20 open locks, +15 find traps, +5 pickpocket, +5 move silently, +5 hide in shadows, +5 detect illusion, and +10 set traps. A starting total bonus of +65, +55 discounting stealth, plus -3 AC and +2 to ranged THAC0.
A Halfling with 17 Dexterity (19 Dexterity values will be in parentheses so that I don't have to write this a third time) has +15(+25) open locks, +5(+15) find traps, +10(+25) pickpocket, +15(+25) move silently, +20(+30) hide in shadows, (and +10 find traps), with no bonus to detect illusion. A starting total bonus of +65(+120), +30(+65) discounting stealth, plus -3(-4) AC and +2(+3) ranged THAC0... unless it's a sling in which case it's +3(+4).
So while the Halfling is still numerically superior once Dexterity comes into play, which one you should use really depends on how you want to use your thief. They're equal in trap finding and trap setting and the dwarf actually has a slight advantage against mages due to 5% in detect illusion that a halfling will always have to spend 5 to match... though the Halfling is superior in basically everything else, (only by 5 in open locks, but significantly in PP and the stealths). Where a dwarf thief would shine (so to speak) is less time wasted between rests as anything with 19 con is healing fully in 8 hours anyway, and 20 con is just overkill even with a warrior class.
And with all that said, I still fully intend to play a dwarf swashbuckler as my next serious BG1 character (since I can't play a technician yet and the potential to get 5/2 APR in shortbows without sacrificing dwarven thievery shenanigans is very appealing)
(If my math or information is wrong, please correct me as I'm slightly tired and slightly braindead as I type this.)
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Comments
That said, Swashbuckler THAC0 and damage bonuses do apply to ranged weapons, which is a nice little boost.
"Dwarves Versus Halflings, or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love The Bilbo"
Always assuming that the OP was parodying Dr Strangelove.
"Not to nit-pick or anything,"
*Nit-picks*
;D
Gnomes rule.
Nuff said.
Tiax Rules!!
Tiax Rules ALL!!! One day He will point and click.
@Flashburn Dwarves are way past cool... They are generally frigid and cold.