Powergamer best Party (and how to use them)

Derilore

So I've always been a bit of a powergamer but i like to do things the legit way. No EE keeper for combos that arent allowed in game etc. So I've been trying to decide what class I'd like to start BG2EE with and the gears have been turning. So here's looking at NPC's and a PC that will be the best power house.

Keldorn
Best 2h weapon, and Free Action armor. Basically the best tank since he can be sent into a web and tank/kill all while having his super dispel and true sight. Which frees up spell slots for my other characters.

Edwin
The best mage in the game, hands down. More spells and his lack of divination is offset by Keldorn.

Imoen
Well you save her, she has decent thieving skills (nothing special) still hits max mage level. And she can use a bow. All in all pretty solid.

So that's core.

Now FoA+5 also adds Free Action as does a Ring, which protect against Web. Which is critical as it allows me to toss out a web and then literally walk in and destroy everything in sight.

This means I can load up a few more melee fighters. Saervok, Minsc, Korgan, Jahera, Anomen, Valgyr and even Mazzy can all fit the bill here. There is also Dorn, Hexxat and Rasaad for BG2EE fighters.

Meaning for FoA use it's pretty much Dorn, Korgan, Anomen, Minsc.
Ring use use would be saervok, valgyr (he cant use flairs iirc), rasaad or hexxat.

I would like to use Viconia but sadly she and Keldon don't get along. And loosing keldorns armor just isn't worth it. (it cant be used by other characters as of EE)


Now PC selection is whats throwing me off.
Seeing as I'm importing from bg1, I'll have all the tomes which means +1 all stats and +3 wisdom. So a divine caster would get the most benefit.

I'll need a thief so perhaps a cleric/thief multi this would allow me to make some very large backstabs with Ram & Magi. Not to mention sanctuary + thief skills allows me to scout and unlock/open everything while being undetected.

Druid, an avenger would also work well and fit the web and attack theme.

Fighter/Mage dual or multi's are always very powerful. But with the Free action, improved haste isn't used much. But having a 300+ HP Tank with Tensers is pretty sweet.

Figher/Cleric dual (evil) another interesting option. Summon skeletons (which are hard to web since they get 90% MR) not to mention turning undead to my side.

Mage/Cleric Multi honestly I love this class but it just scales soo slowly. Loading implosion into sequencers is awesome but by the time you get it the game is pretty much over. It also really lags behind with level based abilities.

Mage/Sorc faster leveling but really Edwin makes them look gimp. And seeing as there is only 1 robe of vecna. It should go to the guy with the most spells.


Anyways he is the best likely run down I can find

PC = Thief/Cleric probably Half-Orc
Keldorn
Edwin
Imoen (nalia until i get her back)
Anomen
Saervok (korgan until tob)

Heindrich

I am not a Powergamer, but a few points to make:

1) This game has so much complexity and options that I really don't think there is a 'best' setup. Your strategy relies heavily on melee fighters and Web, which is fine, there is a nice synergy there. But:

a. Free Action also means no haste boosts, which is a big penalty, and why I've seen people who say FoA +4 is better than FoA +5.

b. Keldorn and Anomen together means 2 characters with woeful Dex, and u can only fix it for one of them.

2) You don't need 2 thieves in the party. Imoen is enough by herself. She can pick every pick-able lock and disarm every disarm-able trap.

3) If u are going for full power, surely Charname should be one of the powerhouse builds like an optimised Kensai=>Mage or Berserk=>Mage or Ranger/Cleric.

golingarf

If you think the way to powergame is to load up on fighters, you've got the wrong idea. Mages are where it's at (and Viconia, who has 65% magic resistance.)

People have differing opinions on what the best class is for your charname, but basically they all agree it is some kind of mage, and usually a multi- or dual-class fighter/mage. I think which you pick somewhat depends on your style of play and how many characters will be in your group. If you are soloing or taking only a small party, feel free to go with a F/M/T or maybe F/M/C. A gnome fighter/illusionist will be better if you have a full party, and a dual-class F/M will get higher level spells much faster. Personally I'm a purist: I think a single class conjurer or gnome illusionist is the best you can do, assuming a full party. I wouldn't trade my extra 8th and 9th level spell slots for some goofy fighter skills any day. I don't think it's possible to make a PC as good as Edwin.

Moczo

In addition, Web loses a lot of utility as you get further into the game and enemy saving throws and spell protections get better.

golingarf

Moczo said:

In addition, Web loses a lot of utility as you get further into the game and enemy saving throws and spell protections get better.

Erm, I beg to differ. The solution to this problem is to use greater malison and lower resistance, and to cast more webs. I rode web right through the end of ToB. At higher levels you get lots of ways to cast lots of webs - simulacra, spell-sequencers .... webs everywhere. Web everything.

Derilore

Well the problem with haste is the constant buffing. Figure Improved Haste lasts on average like 3 minutes (varies on caster lvl so just average 3mil)

True on Keldorn and Anomen but the dex only really matters if they were getting hit, nice thing about web is that enemies don't hit back.

Imoen being a thief is true, but she needs both rings to be able to disarm/open. Which limits her a bit as a mage. She is the best option of a secondary mage for edwin. Nalia is worse, and Jan is thief/mage so an even worse mix. I would use Neera but Imoen is really the only reliable second mage and her base stats are pretty good.

Thief/cleric is good for a few reasons. Backstabs always hit for 100+

Also righteous magic makes traps do max damage, which is pretty sweet with spike traps.

The 1APR is really lame on the T/C but when that once attack is hitting for 100+ it really makes up for it. Especially since with Ram/Magi that is happening every round. (barring immune creatures, but by then I'll be dropping implosions for 100 dmg anyways)

The thing about loading more arcane is that there is only one robe of vecna. So it generally turns out that one mage is the MVP. Which might as well be the mage with the most spell slots (aka Edwin).

Now another option would be to keep the party small.

T/C
Keldorn
Edwin
Arie

T/C thief general shenanigans, plus with UAI he can dualwield two speed weapons so can hit 9 attacks per round when backstabbing isn't an option. Harm with Spectral Brand's Piercing Strike or a time trap gets the job done. Seeing as there is no saving throw and it works on bosses.

Twani

Imoen can open every lock and trap in the game save for one insignificant one in ToB. Sneak, she can't do, but locks and traps, she's good for. I would skip making the MC a thief, and just use her as my primary- go to the Spellhold early, perhaps, so she doesn't get so leveled behind.

Moczo

golingarf said:

Erm, I beg to differ. The solution to this problem is to use greater malison and lower resistance, and to cast more webs. I rode web right through the end of ToB. At higher levels you get lots of ways to cast lots of webs - simulacra, spell-sequencers .... webs everywhere. Web everything.

Well, yes, but by the time you can DO all that you have AOE options without friendly fire, AOE options that can't be thwarted by anyone who learned Minor Globe of Invulnerability at their magical community college, AOE options that don't invite Spider-man puns. THINK OF THE PUNS, MAN.

golingarf

Well, I played a woman my first time out, so there were no puns.

And I used all that stuff too, but to tell you the truth, there was nothing like web. I ended up using web whenever it really mattered. Web was the spell that enabled me to place marileths and gibberlings in the same mental category.

It was kind of funny because I started using it basically right from the beginning of the game, and I was really waiting for it to wear out ... but it just never did! So instead of ceasing abruptly without any good reason, I figured I might as well own it. At some point it just occurred to me, okay, I guess I'm the web lady.

Heindrich

@golingarf

I like my web too, but it takes metagame knowledge and some questionable cheese to use effectively. For example that bandit group in the Temple Sewers is pretty nasty for an early party.

Aware of their existence and their inevitable hostility, I could Greater Mallison and Web them from just outside of sight, and then destroy them with Cloudkill and other ranged attacks, or pile in with Free Action.

However on a first playthrough, or if I was roleplaying it, the party spots a another group of armed individuals in the sewers. Perhaps they are also adventurers hired by the Temple of Helm? Perhaps one of them is Keldorn? They don't appear immediately hostile... you move closer, and bam! ... you got a battle to fight. Once the enemy is charging at you, it's usually too late to use Web.

golingarf

If I remember correctly, I talked to them and then killed them with greater malison and web, and I seem to recall horror, followed by some mess. (I think Minsc died and had to be resurrected, but it was a long time ago.) I never used the "sneak around the edge of the AI's vision" cheese, but I suppose layering ten webs one on top of another could be considered cheesy. It's irksome that there's not a clear definition. I'm really looking forward to playing BG2 with the web nerfs from SCS, which I have yet to try.

You're right though that web can't be your only spell. I always had other tools available. But actually the set of situations where it didn't work was rather disappointingly smaller than the set of situations where it did.

I should add I had four mages in that party, and would often open by casting three or four webs at once, sometimes more if I used a minor sequencer. That definitely makes a big difference when using it at close range. I also got a hang of judging precisely how big the radius was. Very often I would extend it right up to my nose.

kaffekoppen

There's one thing that I think deserves being mentioned in a powergaming thread: You want access to traps in your party, especially HLA traps. This is because HLA traps can take out the toughest enemies in the game before they even get to act. It's super cheesy but it doesn't get more powerful than beating the boss without even fighting them. Demogorgon? Drag him through a bunch of traps and he's done. Final fight in ToB? You know where the boss will spawn so put some traps there.

Derilore

Yeah HLA traps, and timestop trap + Harm is just OP. I like the idea of backstabbing the weaker minions and then busting out the Harm autohit or very high thaco attack roll.

kryptix

I will say that the most optimized party will have at least 16 spike traps and since I play with SCS I don't use web after chapter 2, which means fighters that can hit 10 apr with improved haste.

Most people would consider the most powerful party to be one that is immune to the most damage while dealing the most, which free action doesn't help for either. In that scenario, viconia is easy to get to 100% magic resistance. Jaheira has hardiness and armor of faith and iron skins along with fire resist armor she is a beast tank with club of detonation and belm. Firestorm on top to heal yourself.

Jan for hla traps and mislead backstabs along with damage immunity with pfmw and pfme.

Keldorn for super dispell but he's really squishy.

I'd go with neera over Edwin for access to level 9 spells in chapter 2 and lots of nrd.

Main character fighter illusionist. 10 apr, pfmw pfme si abjur and wish plus time stop kills almost anything while invulnerable.

golingarf

kryptix said:

I'd go with neera over Edwin for access to level 9 spells in chapter 2 and lots of nrd.

Aren't you afraid to use NRD?

And if not, why not take both of them?

I admit I've never had thief HLA's and they sound awesome. I probably won't go for them just because I don't think I could feel good about dragging the poor stupid AI through a minefield, but then, I've done cheesier things... especially with project image... *shudder*.

Edit: Oh I just remembered. They try to kill eachother.

I wonder if charm person would work.

Or maybe web could stop them.

vangoat

I wouldn't put Neera in any powergamer party. Last night she summoned a cow in the copper coronet while casting stoneskin and killed everyone.

golingarf

I'll never look at cows the same way again.

bob_veng

this could potentially be the best standard layout party (works better in late stages of the game):

1. charname - dual wielding fighter/mage (celestial fury > blackrazor > foebane + speedweapon)

2. Korgan - dual wielding (minor axes > ax of teh unyielding + crom)

3. Dorn - two handed (abyssal blade > unholy reaver / ravager / foa+5 for some of that elemental damage when needed; foa+5 works best with gww which he will employ)

4. Hexxat*** - two handed (staffs of striking, there are 2 so charges are a non-isssue) and gesen
***in in tob absolutely replace with: Sarevok *fighter(19)>thief* - two handed (silver sword > carsomyr / staff of the ram)

5. Viconia*** - tons of nice blunt weapons (runehammer comes to mind) but better focus on divine casting, her combat abilities are unimportant or at best of situational importance
***alternatively for the fifth spot: Jaheira - you might be suffering without restoration for some time but there are several items that offer prot. from level drain; also there will be planetars; reasons for this:
- viconia's levelling stops making a difference around the time she gets the symbol of talos (and even before that) while jaheira's endgame power increases exponentially; you don't need viconia's bazillion priest spells, jaheiras spell slots will suffice
- she's better than viconia because she absolutely slays in melee: there's the impaler, then the spectral brand, there's the club of detonation so go both two handed and dual wielding, she's exceptionally versatile.
- with her in the party you would have the chance to use all available +6 weapons at once and all the best weapons in general at the same time
- you can complete all of her great quests with the optimal outcome even if you're an evil female

6. Edwin

kryptix

I'm not afraid of using Neera once I have her armors that add like 35 bonus to your wild magic rolls then the buffs that add another 40? I'll live with pretty much all of the top level wild effects. Also, she can cast chain contingency with NRD with no chance of a wild magic effect I believe... That's pretty broken early in the game.

mumumomo

Best powergaming party = solo sorc. You can get lvl 9 spells before leaving for the asylum.
Once you get them, the game is over anyway.

If you want a party :
- arcane casters are very powerful but several of them requires a lot of micromanagement. With micromanagement, any crappy group will beat the game fairly easily
- the best NPC are :
- keldorn (carsomyr, dispell, true sight)
- jan (thief, secondary mage)
- viconia (MR but incompatible with keldorn) or jaheira
- edwin (primary mage)
- korgan (berserker rage)

- I personnally think that a small party (4 max) will be stronger when it matters (the beginning of the game, the end game is anyway easy with a good powergaming group).

abacus

In my current run, Dorn with Silver Sword & Greater Whirlwind is lethal. 10 attacks, 25% of which will be save or die.
Add in Greater Malison (my most used spell) & Doom for truely horrible modifiers.

Moczo

golingarf said:

Well, I played a woman my first time out, so there were no puns.

And I used all that stuff too, but to tell you the truth, there was nothing like web. I ended up using web whenever it really mattered. Web was the spell that enabled me to place marileths and gibberlings in the same mental category.

It was kind of funny because I started using it basically right from the beginning of the game, and I was really waiting for it to wear out ... but it just never did! So instead of ceasing abruptly without any good reason, I figured I might as well own it. At some point it just occurred to me, okay, I guess I'm the web lady.

You fool, now there will be Spider-WOMAN puns, and there have been like five of her!

... More seriously, you do have a point. I think I fell into the mental trap of assuming that because something doesn't match my playstyle it isn't a valid tactic, and I feel a bit silly about it. Sorry. ^^;;;;

kryptix

I definitely went heavy on webs in my early playthroughs too but with SCS it doesn't work on any of the really hard enemies so I try not to rely on it after chapter 2.

golingarf

Come to think of it, maybe the best idea is to not spread your immunity items around too much. So perhaps a small party of an F/M/T, Edwin, and Viconia would be a good plan - you could later pick up Sarevok and actually have time to dual-class him. Also, @mumumomo is right about the sorcerer - but I sort of try to pretend that 3rd edition classes don't exist.

golingarf

Moczo said:

... More seriously, you do have a point. I think I fell into the mental trap of assuming that because something doesn't match my playstyle it isn't a valid tactic, and I feel a bit silly about it. Sorry. ^^;;;;

Oh, I'm not nearly so easily offended. Actually half the reason I'm here is to find out other people's tricks. I've already found a few interesting things. For one, HLA traps seem to be popular and that's something I've never tried.

bob_veng

^i think you're overestimating the scarcity of protection

you can have all relevant immunities on almost everyone who needs them.

you can have fear immunity on absolutely everyone, poison immunity on 5 characters (as far as i know, maybe even six), neg plane prot. on 4-5 characters, almost all mental immunities on mostly everyone etc.

for example i used lilarcor on dorn just for the charm immunity in many battles, i always kept in the 3rd slot ever since i got it. I used in the fight against the fallen planetar, baalors and succubi just before the last melissan battle

you can have almost complete magic resistance on two characters, partial on the rest, and also have two fairly resistant to magical damage (one 100%, the other at least 50%)

you can have one character impervous to mind flayers (one is enough), and at least one impervious to demiliches (one is also quite enough)

conclusion: you don't have to have less party members in order for them to be better protected

Moczo

golingarf said:

Oh, I'm not nearly so easily offended. Actually half the reason I'm here is to find out other people's tricks. I've already found a few interesting things. For one, HLA traps seem to be popular and that's something I've never tried.

Good, good. I was not trying to be offensive, but I can occasionally be a dumbass. XD

As for ideas, I may have to try working Web into higher-tier strategies more often. I usually devote my 2nd level spell slots to Mirror Images and the odd Acid Arrow, while using things like Emotion:Hopelessness and Chaos for my crowd control needs once the Malison has gone off, since they can be fired while my fighters are in the fray stabbing stuff. But since Web seems to hold up at high levels better than I thought, it might be a good plan to work it into some ambush tactics...

And HLA traps are amazing. Spike Traps in particular are almost blatantly unfair.

Derilore

Well maxing fire resist on the tanks is generally the top priority. Nothing quite like your tanks getting healed by the fire damage you spam into the enemies.

So lets talk best party again.

Recently did some testing with Wild Mages, chain contingency will not surge even as a lvl 1 wild mage with no chaos shields etc. Sequencers don't appear to either. However the surges on other spells are a bit of a hassle seems to be more than 5% IMO.

One thing of note is that nah's skips the spell casting cooldown so you can quite literally spam spells as if using improved alcary. Which is pretty sweet for low lvl. Blasting off 6 chain contingencies for 18 spells total at low lvl is pretty destructive. Once you get a lvl 7 spell slot Mirror image makes this even better.

I am now of the impression that Wild Mages are by far the most powerful casters.

PC = WM
Neera (less spells compared to edwin but fills as a romance and WM goodness)
Keldorn (again super dispel and true sight and can build tanky)
Jan (need those HLA traps, and he will be my main spell defense breaker as well)
Jahera (tanky and good melee, plus romance option)

This leaves me another free slot, but i do think that 3-5 is the best party size.

kaffekoppen

I'm quite interested in what I'm hearing about wild mages here... I never actually tried Chain Contingency with one so I didn't know it could not surge. I'd be very disappointed though if the surge percentage was more than 5 on other spells.

EDIT: Just tested it a bit. Indeed it never seems to surge when you use Nahal's to cast Contingencies and Sequencer. At least it didn't for me. However, my Minor Sequencer kept surging like crazy, and when it does surge, you don't actually lose the sequencer; it comes back when you rest until it doesn't surge. But for me it would sometimes surge twice in a row. It appears that you've used it because it's not in special abilities anymore, but in fact it's still in effect.

I guess my conclusion is that it might be powerful, but it's also incredibly strange and probably not 100% intended behavior.

Moczo said:

And HLA traps are amazing. Spike Traps in particular are almost blatantly unfair.

Spike Traps are, and Time Traps are super dangerous in the hands of a F/T (but not against the 2-3 enemies in the game that are immune to Time Stop). I'm not so sure you would ever want Explosive Trap though.

Regular thief traps are definitely worth it too. The silly thing about traps is that in addition to doing damage that won't be resisted, often you'll be hitting the enemy *before* they have their protections up. For example, Shangalar in the Twisted Rune building - if you place the traps where he appears, he'll be instagibbed before his contingencies activate.

Derilore

Yeah I've noticed a couple glitches with the sequencers but honestly being able to launch multiple chain contingencies a round made sequencers kind of a moot point.

Traps are just, well yeah gotta have those traps. Nice trick is that righteous magic makes the trap deal max damage. There is a new headband that casts it per day as well so you don't have to be a theif/cleric.

golingarf

Derilore said:

Well maxing fire resist on the tanks is generally the top priority. Nothing quite like your tanks getting healed by the fire damage you spam into the enemies.

Not sure what version you're playing but I think that in EE resistances cap at 100%.

Derilore said:

PC = WM

Be aware that there is a chance of petrifying yourself with a wild surge. You can use Stone to Flesh on Neera, but if this happens to your charname it ends your run.