Jumping on the bandwagon a bit here, but this is something which has always annoyed me. Even if I'd not known I was 'supposed' to have used this party, I still wouldn't have chosen this combination with the character I normally play through BG with (LG Elf Fighter/Mage). Although this combo is good, it's really nothing exceptional, even if you were just a plain old fighter, as the game wants you to be. If I keep Jaheira, then I find I will always need another healer, because she levels up too slowly, and missed out on Hold Person and other spells, as well as the Turn Undead ability. The only plus side is that she's tougher than all the other healers (with the possible exception of Yeslick), so she can act as a back up for Khalid, as he's not the best tank in the world... While I can see logic in keeping Imoen, Khalid and Jaheira (as they are the only characters who the PC knows he/she can trust, from a role-playing perspective), Minsc and Dynaheir don't seem to fit with me. Yes, I know Dynaheir is the only good mage in the game, and Minsc is funny and acts as the mascot for the whole series, but if you're expected to dual Imoen at some point, and are keeping K & J, then I would think it far more logical to have someone like Coran, who could act as the thief while Imoen is spawning, and as a good archer to help back up Khalid, Jaheira and the PC on the melee front. I'd then fill the other space with Branwen to add some more spells into the mix, or possibly Ajantis to be an additional tank and Undead-turner. So yes, I really can't understand why the 'ideal' party was selected as it was. I just wish there was some way to change this, or maybe have an 'ideal' evil and/or neutral party that could be in there instead.
I always used my wonderful amazonian party. Me (Female Elven Fighter/Mage), Imoen (Who I dualed ), Safana, Shar-Teel, Alora, and Branwen (Tradeable for Viconia) I of course prefered Branwen because she was a Battlegaurd of Tempus and Safana was a Swashbuckler for me, but ANYWAYS....
I think that there should be a preset list of NPCs that don't make it there with you, and ones that do. Let's face it, some NPCs will leave you once they know you're finished with your quest, so it's totally understandable that they may have gone. But it'd be interesting to see other NPCs that end up in that cage instead of Minsc and Jaheira, (Like Skie! Eldoth gets killed because of his big mouth, and because Skie is seen as a miniscule insect, she's left for later )
The only thing I didn't like was that sometimes Viconia or Edwin in BG2 spoke as if they were with you in the end fight with Sarevok... and I'm like... NO THE GAME SAID THESE 5 WERE WITH ME AND 8 IS TOO MUCH!!!!
Then I just scream liar liar and run around in circles ^.^
Yes, I know Dynaheir is the only good mage in the game, and Minsc is funny and acts as the mascot for the whole series, but if you're expected to dual Imoen at some point, and are keeping K & J, then I would think it far more logical to have someone like Coran, who could act as the thief while Imoen is spawning, and as a good archer to help back up Khalid, Jaheira and the PC on the melee front. I'd then fill the other space with Branwen to add some more spells into the mix, or possibly Ajantis to be an additional tank and Undead-turner.
The thing about dual-classing Imoen into a mage is that canonically you don't do that, because it's a huge surprise when she blasts Irenicus after you escape the first dungeon - you can tell she didn't expect that to happen.
The thing about dual-classing Imoen into a mage is that canonically you don't do that, because it's a huge surprise when she blasts Irenicus after you escape the first dungeon - you can tell she didn't expect that to happen.
I don't think you're remembering that part quite correctly. It's not like she accidentally shot Magic Missile at Irenicus. She cast Magic Missile because she is canonically a spellcaster in BG2 right from the start.
And actually guys. Little-known detail but: http://www.forgottenwars.com/bg1/miscellany.htm Scroll to "Baldur's Gate II" on that page. You get exactly two items from your BG1 game, I've tested it he's completely right. I make sure to export my main char from BG1 with at least the Claw of Kazgaroth from now on.
I did learn of this recently, though back when I played BG1 I was convinced the Claw wasn't a good item because of the penalties it applies, so none of my imports ever had it! I also didn't have ToSC way back then, so I never had the +3 plate mail. This time, though, it'll be different. Muhahaha!
And actually guys. Little-known detail but: http://www.forgottenwars.com/bg1/miscellany.htm Scroll to "Baldur's Gate II" on that page. You get exactly two items from your BG1 game, I've tested it he's completely right. I make sure to export my main char from BG1 with at least the Claw of Kazgaroth from now on.
I did learn of this recently, though back when I played BG1 I was convinced the Claw wasn't a good item because of the penalties it applies, so none of my imports ever had it! I also didn't have ToSC way back then, so I never had the +3 plate mail. This time, though, it'll be different. Muhahaha!
I still don't like the claw....what makes it worth taking?
I actually completed BG1 with a Ranger and the canon party. I was pleasantly surprised when I saw that BG2 assumed I used that party in BG1.
LOL, I guess that's why you're not a pain in the neck as I am! =P
But still, I can't stress enough that you should be able to import your party into BG2 the same way you can import your last save. Not that I'm saying every single one of them should be somewhere in Amn, but only if you defeated Sarevok with them. Getting them in the pocket plane in ToB makes sense as well.
Again, I said it before and I'll say it again: none of these characters will break the game. They just have to add new banters and, possibly, some minor quests, but nothing really overwhelming. Even a DLC will be fine.
How about this?
- Imoen stays, obviously (even if you didn't keep her in your party). - You have Jaheira and Khalid in your party. Khalid dies. No changes (mods are still possible). - Jaheira died in BG1 and you kept Khalid in your party. New banters and quests. - You have Minsc and Dynaheir in your party. Dynaheir dies. No changes (mods are still possible). - Minsc died in BG1 (oh man, how could you?) and you kept Dynaheir in your party. New banters and quests. - You have Edwin in your party. Someone else will serve Mae'Var (Yoshimo?). - You have Viconia in your party. In Athkatla she will be kidnapped and you must save her. No changes. - You have Xan, Yeslick, Alora, Kivan, Branwen, Shar-Teel, or Kagain in your party. If not, you'll never meet them again in BG2, except in your pocket plane if you wish, like anybody else. - You have Eldoth and/or Skie in your party. New banters and quests. - You have Ajantis in your party. Keldorn (and Anomen?) will recognize him. - You have Faldorn in your party. There will be another Shadow Druid to defeat. She could even betray you. - You have Xzar and/or Montaron in your party. Chances are you don't have Khalid and Jaheira, but whatever the case, someone else will replace Xzar and Montaron in the Harper's Guild. - You have Safana and/or Coran in your party. If not, you will find them both in Chapter 6. No changes. - You have Quayle in your party. He will recognize Aerie in the circus. You can still choose who will stay or leave your party. - You have Tiax in your party. If not, you COULD still save him from Spellhold. You're not forced to take him with you, though. - You have Rasaad, Neera, and/or Dorn in your party. New banters and quests.
You know i forgot all about importing a party last save.
Using that logic, you could do that and the other 3-5 members could appear in the extra cages, and if you do the multiplayer game, you wont want to import a party, but use real-player npc's anyway.
@g314: The thing is, most of the BG1 NPCs don't have much of a reason to stick around after defeating Sarevok:
Xzar and Montaron were sent by the Zhentarim to investigate Nashkel, and would've had to report back. (Khalid and Jaheira, on the other hand, stay with you rather than go back to the Harpers because Gorion asked them to); Edwin puts a time limit on his service to you if you recruit him; Kagain is a mercenary; Safana has more shiny things to steal; Faldorn's primary concern is her druid grove; Ajantis is part of the Radiant Heart and goes where he's needed; Eldoth and Skie run off together (which they were planning on doing anyway); and so on. In-game, no one in your party actually knows what's about to happen to you, so it's entirely plausible that NPCs who weren't specifically loyal to you or Gorion would take their leave at that point.
my party would have been pc, imoen (but as a thief, not as a dual thief mage, heck, give her a wand of magic missle for story purposes), tiax, since he rules me, and khalid (jeheria long since dead from a misfire of magic missle spell)
@shawne: But if they didn't care about your quest, as you said, why would they follow you till the end of BG1? Your point would stand if they'd have left your party as soon as you completed their quests. Edwin doesn't leave after you killed Dynaheir, Faldorn also doesn't leave after you flooded Cloakwood mines, and so on.
I understand any of them may have left after you defeated Sarevok (including Minsc and Dynaheir, right?), but then again, who brought Minsc and Jaheira in Irenicus' dungeon if you hadn't taken them with you in the first place? Besides, again, even if they were supposed to leave, they wouldn't have had enough time since you were kidnapped immediately after you left the city of Baldur's Gate.
@g314: Technically, you recruit your party to fight a specific threat - the Iron Throne. Once Sarevok is defeated, the mission is over; no one could have anticipated that Irenicus would kidnap you. Also, it seems unlikely that Minsc and Dynaheir were actually with you when you were captured, because until Minsc tells you what happened, your character has no idea that Dynaheir was killed.
Coincidently my favourite and most used party ended up being the canonical party. I remember that I was truly impressed that when I played BG2 for the first time my choice of party n BG1 was taken in consideration. Then I imported a diferent character...
I also like the following party: PC Fighter, Ajantis, Imoen (dual-classed a mage), Coran, Yeslick and Kivan. Too bad Kaigan is evil...Ajantis is a bit lame (even with the gauntlets of dexterity).
I guess everyone has his favorite BG1 NPC who he wants to return in BG2. I know the contracts do not allow to change existing content, so they can't touch the existing NPC in BG1, but does that also mean that they can't include BG1 NPC in BG2:EE? At least some NPC who don't appear in regular BG2, like Eldoth and Skie? Simply adding them would not change any existing content.
@Arrakis In order to do that though we'll need to just go ahead and double check that they don't already make a cameo. I dunno if Eldoth and Skie do but I know for example that Coran makes a cameo IIRC.
@Dragonspear: Yes, I know that NPC with a cameo in BG2 would be difficult/ impossible, but I think that some BG1 NPC do not appear in BG2, so it -should- be possible to include them as far as I understand what has been said about the contracts.
Yes, I know Dynaheir is the only good mage in the game,
I was 100% following your post until I got here. ...Umm what?! What about Edwin?
Silly! not "good" like "She is has the greatest ability in the game" but good like "She is Lawful Good and perfect for a good-aligned party"
Thanks for pointing that out. Sorry Quartz, I should have made it more clear in my post, although you are quite correct - Edwin is an AWESOME mage!
Speaking of Edwin, it reminds me of another point - who said that your party has to be all (or mostly) the same alignment? There are lots of people (myself included) who like to mix and match alignments in their party, purely because of the characters' abilties, and just stay between 2 and 18 reputation, which stands to reason, I guess. So really, this makes things even more complicated, even if you were to select an ideal party for each alignment.
Also, it seems unlikely that Minsc and Dynaheir were actually with you when you were captured, because until Minsc tells you what happened, your character has no idea that Dynaheir was killed.
I'm not sure I'm following you here. If Minsc wasn't with you when you left Baldur's Gate, then why Irenicus bothered to capture him as well? Then he tells you Dynaheir died and...?
Anyways, either you and the characters you meet in Chateau Irenicus say that "they can't remember" what happened, but:
- when Imoen frees you, she says: "All I know is we were near Baldur's Gate and got jumped," - then Jaheira says: "My husband Khalid and I have traveled with you for some seasons now, and the places we have seen number too many to name." and "Your... unique heritage has proven a magnet for adventure," - and Minsc says when you free him: "Now we can resume our adventures together!"
So they WERE with you at the time you were captured by Irenicus, so this doesn't change the fact that if other NPCs joined my party, they should be with me, right?
Also, what I REALLY fail to understand is this: why do some forum members oppose the OPTION to have the other NPCs available at start when it's obvious they can still retain the canon party without any changes? I mean, you still get what you already have, but others are free to get more options. Why such opposition? I mean, why even bother? =(
- when Imoen frees you, she says: "All I know is we were near Baldur's Gate and got jumped," - then Jaheira says: "My husband Khalid and I have traveled with you for some seasons now, and the places we have seen number too many to name." and "Your... unique heritage has proven a magnet for adventure," - and Minsc says when you free him: "Now we can resume our adventures together!"
Of that group, Imoen's the only one who explicitly says she was with you when you were ambushed - which makes sense, since she's the only one who's completely loyal to you no matter what you do.
Jaheira and Khalid are slightly more ambiguous - "we have traveled with you for some time now" isn't the same as saying "we were traveling with you when we were attacked". But again, they had a reason to stay: Gorion asked them to protect you.
And Minsc's statement is the most loosely-worded of all: "resuming our adventures together" suggests that your adventures together were interrupted and now you can start them up again. I take that to mean that after Sarevok was defeated, Dynaheir decided to continue doing whatever she'd been doing when the gnolls kidnapped her, and Minsc followed.
So they WERE with you at the time you were captured by Irenicus, so this doesn't change the fact that if other NPCs joined my party, they should be with me, right?
Also, what I REALLY fail to understand is this: why do some forum members oppose the OPTION to have the other NPCs available at start when it's obvious they can still retain the canon party without any changes? I mean, you still get what you already have, but others are free to get more options. Why such opposition? I mean, why even bother? =(
I can't speak for all forum members, but my objections are story-based (and, to be clear, I've never used the canon party in any of my playthroughs). Aside from Khalid, Jaheira and Imoen, none of the BG1 NPCs have any personal ties that would compel them to stay with you after you ended the threat of the Iron Throne and saved the city. They all have personal agendas - look at how many of them are doing their own thing when you meet them in BG2.
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I appreciated the lack of item importing b/w BG1 and 2. First, I think it fit the story well; Irenicus is a powerhouse mage who probably had little use for the relatively low-level gear you're rockin in BG1. He would, however, need the gold from selling the items to finance his schemes. Second, I enjoyed the challenge of outfitting my character; I feel that if my items were imported from BG1, it would have made many of the items in the first chapters of BG2 just vendor trash. A large part of my enjoyment of the BG series is finding new awesome items, and I think importing would have made the game a little more boring.
I will caveat that by agreeing it would be cool to have a few quests to track down old equipment, but not right off the bat.
@shawne: I still believe there's a logic BioWare followed when making the party for you in BG2, but to me it was just an 'encouragement' for the player to try the new NPCs in Amn and use Yoshimo as a placeholder character to 'test him out' (this particular one to me was a quite elegant take for the plot).
But if your "objections are story-based" as you say, I think you shouldn't care whether or not you get the canon party in BG2, let alone finding a far-fetched (no offense intended) reason. Mind you, I am too trying to be story-oriented, but since we're talking about a game, I'd expect more freedom and less linearity for the player.
I guess we can agree to disagree as this is getting redundant. Best case scenario for me would be a DLC, then let people get what they want.
But if your "objections are story-based" as you say, I think you shouldn't care whether or not you get the canon party in BG2, let alone finding a far-fetched (no offense intended) reason. Mind you, I am too trying to be story-oriented, but since we're talking about a game, I'd expect more freedom and less linearity for the player.
But this isn't an issue of freedom vs. linearity. What you're suggesting is the addition of twenty-odd playable characters to BG2, each with the same amount of content and interactions (because it wouldn't be fair to bring in the party you may have used and not, say, another player who used Tiax, Quayle, Xzar, Eldoth and Yeslick).
Setting aside the mechanical issues - a party with Keldorn and Ajantis/Kagain and Korgan would be rather overpowered - you'd have to strip out every BG1 NPC encounter in BG2, since this isn't "Mass Effect" and the game engine isn't capable of calculating all the variable actions you can take. So Safana doesn't trick Coran into double-crossing you, and Tiax doesn't get locked up in Spellhold, and Quayle doesn't raise Aerie.
I guess we can agree to disagree as this is getting redundant. Best case scenario for me would be a DLC, then let people get what they want.
Well, you know what they say about people getting what they want. To me, this feels like an extension of the request to make BG3 a continuation of the Bhaalspawn Saga - sometimes stories are served better by being allowed to end. The BG1 companions are an interesting and eclectic bunch, but I'm okay with the idea that their adventures with your protagonist are finite, and that you get to make a whole bunch of new friends in the next game.
Comments
While I can see logic in keeping Imoen, Khalid and Jaheira (as they are the only characters who the PC knows he/she can trust, from a role-playing perspective), Minsc and Dynaheir don't seem to fit with me. Yes, I know Dynaheir is the only good mage in the game, and Minsc is funny and acts as the mascot for the whole series, but if you're expected to dual Imoen at some point, and are keeping K & J, then I would think it far more logical to have someone like Coran, who could act as the thief while Imoen is spawning, and as a good archer to help back up Khalid, Jaheira and the PC on the melee front. I'd then fill the other space with Branwen to add some more spells into the mix, or possibly Ajantis to be an additional tank and Undead-turner.
So yes, I really can't understand why the 'ideal' party was selected as it was. I just wish there was some way to change this, or maybe have an 'ideal' evil and/or neutral party that could be in there instead.
I think that there should be a preset list of NPCs that don't make it there with you, and ones that do. Let's face it, some NPCs will leave you once they know you're finished with your quest, so it's totally understandable that they may have gone. But it'd be interesting to see other NPCs that end up in that cage instead of Minsc and Jaheira, (Like Skie! Eldoth gets killed because of his big mouth, and because Skie is seen as a miniscule insect, she's left for later
The only thing I didn't like was that sometimes Viconia or Edwin in BG2 spoke as if they were with you in the end fight with Sarevok... and I'm like... NO THE GAME SAID THESE 5 WERE WITH ME AND 8 IS TOO MUCH!!!!
Then I just scream liar liar and run around in circles ^.^
But still, I can't stress enough that you should be able to import your party into BG2 the same way you can import your last save. Not that I'm saying every single one of them should be somewhere in Amn, but only if you defeated Sarevok with them. Getting them in the pocket plane in ToB makes sense as well.
Again, I said it before and I'll say it again: none of these characters will break the game. They just have to add new banters and, possibly, some minor quests, but nothing really overwhelming. Even a DLC will be fine.
How about this?
- Imoen stays, obviously (even if you didn't keep her in your party).
- You have Jaheira and Khalid in your party. Khalid dies. No changes (mods are still possible).
- Jaheira died in BG1 and you kept Khalid in your party. New banters and quests.
- You have Minsc and Dynaheir in your party. Dynaheir dies. No changes (mods are still possible).
- Minsc died in BG1 (oh man, how could you?) and you kept Dynaheir in your party. New banters and quests.
- You have Edwin in your party. Someone else will serve Mae'Var (Yoshimo?).
- You have Viconia in your party. In Athkatla she will be kidnapped and you must save her. No changes.
- You have Xan, Yeslick, Alora, Kivan, Branwen, Shar-Teel, or Kagain in your party. If not, you'll never meet them again in BG2, except in your pocket plane if you wish, like anybody else.
- You have Eldoth and/or Skie in your party. New banters and quests.
- You have Ajantis in your party. Keldorn (and Anomen?) will recognize him.
- You have Faldorn in your party. There will be another Shadow Druid to defeat. She could even betray you.
- You have Xzar and/or Montaron in your party. Chances are you don't have Khalid and Jaheira, but whatever the case, someone else will replace Xzar and Montaron in the Harper's Guild.
- You have Safana and/or Coran in your party. If not, you will find them both in Chapter 6. No changes.
- You have Quayle in your party. He will recognize Aerie in the circus. You can still choose who will stay or leave your party.
- You have Tiax in your party. If not, you COULD still save him from Spellhold. You're not forced to take him with you, though.
- You have Rasaad, Neera, and/or Dorn in your party. New banters and quests.
Using that logic, you could do that and the other 3-5 members could appear in the extra cages, and if you do the multiplayer game, you wont want to import a party, but use real-player npc's anyway.
I like this brain-storm.
Xzar and Montaron were sent by the Zhentarim to investigate Nashkel, and would've had to report back. (Khalid and Jaheira, on the other hand, stay with you rather than go back to the Harpers because Gorion asked them to); Edwin puts a time limit on his service to you if you recruit him; Kagain is a mercenary; Safana has more shiny things to steal; Faldorn's primary concern is her druid grove; Ajantis is part of the Radiant Heart and goes where he's needed; Eldoth and Skie run off together (which they were planning on doing anyway); and so on. In-game, no one in your party actually knows what's about to happen to you, so it's entirely plausible that NPCs who weren't specifically loyal to you or Gorion would take their leave at that point.
I understand any of them may have left after you defeated Sarevok (including Minsc and Dynaheir, right?), but then again, who brought Minsc and Jaheira in Irenicus' dungeon if you hadn't taken them with you in the first place? Besides, again, even if they were supposed to leave, they wouldn't have had enough time since you were kidnapped immediately after you left the city of Baldur's Gate.
I remember that I was truly impressed that when I played BG2 for the first time my choice of party n BG1 was taken in consideration. Then I imported a diferent character...
I also like the following party: PC Fighter, Ajantis, Imoen (dual-classed a mage), Coran, Yeslick and Kivan. Too bad Kaigan is evil...Ajantis is a bit lame (even with the gauntlets of dexterity).
Speaking of Edwin, it reminds me of another point - who said that your party has to be all (or mostly) the same alignment? There are lots of people (myself included) who like to mix and match alignments in their party, purely because of the characters' abilties, and just stay between 2 and 18 reputation, which stands to reason, I guess. So really, this makes things even more complicated, even if you were to select an ideal party for each alignment.
Anyways, either you and the characters you meet in Chateau Irenicus say that "they can't remember" what happened, but:
- when Imoen frees you, she says: "All I know is we were near Baldur's Gate and got jumped,"
- then Jaheira says: "My husband Khalid and I have traveled with you for some seasons now, and the places we have seen number too many to name." and "Your... unique heritage has proven a magnet for adventure,"
- and Minsc says when you free him: "Now we can resume our adventures together!"
So they WERE with you at the time you were captured by Irenicus, so this doesn't change the fact that if other NPCs joined my party, they should be with me, right?
Also, what I REALLY fail to understand is this: why do some forum members oppose the OPTION to have the other NPCs available at start when it's obvious they can still retain the canon party without any changes? I mean, you still get what you already have, but others are free to get more options. Why such opposition? I mean, why even bother? =(
Jaheira and Khalid are slightly more ambiguous - "we have traveled with you for some time now" isn't the same as saying "we were traveling with you when we were attacked". But again, they had a reason to stay: Gorion asked them to protect you.
And Minsc's statement is the most loosely-worded of all: "resuming our adventures together" suggests that your adventures together were interrupted and now you can start them up again. I take that to mean that after Sarevok was defeated, Dynaheir decided to continue doing whatever she'd been doing when the gnolls kidnapped her, and Minsc followed. I can't speak for all forum members, but my objections are story-based (and, to be clear, I've never used the canon party in any of my playthroughs). Aside from Khalid, Jaheira and Imoen, none of the BG1 NPCs have any personal ties that would compel them to stay with you after you ended the threat of the Iron Throne and saved the city. They all have personal agendas - look at how many of them are doing their own thing when you meet them in BG2.
I will caveat that by agreeing it would be cool to have a few quests to track down old equipment, but not right off the bat.
But if your "objections are story-based" as you say, I think you shouldn't care whether or not you get the canon party in BG2, let alone finding a far-fetched (no offense intended) reason. Mind you, I am too trying to be story-oriented, but since we're talking about a game, I'd expect more freedom and less linearity for the player.
I guess we can agree to disagree as this is getting redundant. Best case scenario for me would be a DLC, then let people get what they want.
Setting aside the mechanical issues - a party with Keldorn and Ajantis/Kagain and Korgan would be rather overpowered - you'd have to strip out every BG1 NPC encounter in BG2, since this isn't "Mass Effect" and the game engine isn't capable of calculating all the variable actions you can take. So Safana doesn't trick Coran into double-crossing you, and Tiax doesn't get locked up in Spellhold, and Quayle doesn't raise Aerie. Well, you know what they say about people getting what they want.