Serious warning : you miss quite critical information.
aldol
Member Posts: 17
ranged weapons suffer from +4 penalty to ac when attacked by melee and suffer from +8 Thac0 penalty in melee.
it is very very very very very seriously important information to all gamer. isn't it?
BUT there is nowhere explaining about it. (it is not in the manual and the game)
this information was explained original game loading screen (when I was young, I had seen this and remembered barely after my character died).
loading screen is gone on EE now and THIS information is also gone together, but this mechanism exists even now.
It must be explained at the manual and game tutorial. why does player suffer from hidden game mechanism?
you beamdog should explain this before the newbie suffer from hidden mechanism.
......
edited - additional explanation
smart person could use composit longbow in melee because composit longbow has better Damage Per Round ( (1d6+2) x 2 rate of fire and additional 1 thac0 ) at early game stage than other early game weapons (even better than two handed sword) unless they actually know the melee penalty.
long sword = 1d8 = 1~8
two handed sword = 1d10 = 1~10
composit longbow = (1d6 +2) * 2 rate of fire = 4~14 (actually better high damage rate)
the player could reasonably use ranged weapon in melee if the player don't know melee penalty.
right?
that's why the penalty should be described.
it is very very very very very seriously important information to all gamer. isn't it?
BUT there is nowhere explaining about it. (it is not in the manual and the game)
this information was explained original game loading screen (when I was young, I had seen this and remembered barely after my character died).
loading screen is gone on EE now and THIS information is also gone together, but this mechanism exists even now.
It must be explained at the manual and game tutorial. why does player suffer from hidden game mechanism?
you beamdog should explain this before the newbie suffer from hidden mechanism.
......
edited - additional explanation
smart person could use composit longbow in melee because composit longbow has better Damage Per Round ( (1d6+2) x 2 rate of fire and additional 1 thac0 ) at early game stage than other early game weapons (even better than two handed sword) unless they actually know the melee penalty.
long sword = 1d8 = 1~8
two handed sword = 1d10 = 1~10
composit longbow = (1d6 +2) * 2 rate of fire = 4~14 (actually better high damage rate)
the player could reasonably use ranged weapon in melee if the player don't know melee penalty.
right?
that's why the penalty should be described.
Post edited by aldol on
9
Comments
any hidden information else?
I remember running CHARNAME and Imoen in circles in early BG around wolves and diseased gibberlings, while whichever one wasn't being chased shot at them.
if there is no penalty, there is few reason that keep archers and other ranged weapon users out of close combat.
this game archers(maybe fighter, ranger) have enough hp and ac.
I make them step back or SWITCH melee weapon because of the penalty not other reason so it should be described for newbie for good decision.
smart person could use composit longbow in melee because composit longbow has better Damage Per Round ( (1d6+2) x 2 rate of fire and additional 1 thac0 ) at early game stage than other early game weapons (even better than two handed sword) unless they actually know the melee penalty.
long sword = 1d8 = 1~8
two handed sword = 1d10 = 1~10
composit longbow = (1d6 +2) * 2 rate of fire = 4~14 (actually better high damage rate)
the player could reasonably use ranged weapon in melee if the player don't know melee penalty.
right?
that's why the penalty should be described.
Who wouldn't like to be that awesome?
It's just another example of how badly implemented ranged weapons really are. Not only are they pretty much worse than melee weapons in every single possible way, you also get a penalty if someone's hitting you in melee. I get that it's AD&D, but they didn't follow all the rules anyway. Would it hurt to think just a little bit about balance?
Oh well, old game. I have long since accepted it for what it is. I just have higher expectations of modern games when it comes to balance.
On top of all that, doesn't ammo still decide the enchantment level? How many +4 arrows and bolts are in the game? None. You're basically forced to use the few weapons that create their own ammo. This of course is not a problem in BG1.
Is just like any serious strategy game, or real military practice for that matter, there's a certain rock/paper/scissors aspect to every decision. No weapon is meant for every situation, they all have their strengths and weaknesses. Even if you have five pips in long bow, and one in long sword, you have that one in long sword because the day will come when the long sword is the better choice.
we should know how to play in order to play.
I agree with OP that the mechanism should be more transparent.
I roleplay anyway, so most of my archers are one weapon style, and quickly drop their bows and switch to melee weapons when enemies close. I did that even before learning about the penalty. I think the penalty was mentioned in BG 1 Vanilla loading screens.
In the hands of everyone else, ranged weapons just don't hit hard enough for 2 reasons:
- most don't get strength bonuses
- piercing is probably the weakest damage type in the game (in some areas fire is pretty bad too though)
Then there's the ammo issue, and it is an issue. Bows would have so much utility if you could use all the weird ammo you find, but eventually you just can't hit with it. They could have at least given us a decent supply of +4 ammo and it would have been OK, but no. Yeah you can get infinite ammo of a type that can't hit the enemies you're facing by the time you get it... I think I read that in Big Whoop Magazine. At least there are a few weapons in the game that create their own ammo, and those weapons I like, naturally. I understand what you're saying, but (and no offense intended) I disagree very strongly. Ideally I would want every game to be balanced rather than having one imbalance in BG2 making up for another in BG1.
Like I said though, and please keep this in mind before you think I'm going crazy with this: None of this is really a big deal to me. I accepted that the BG series didn't have a big focus on balance and I enjoy them anyway. However, I'm still going to say what I think about it, and I think they messed up the game balance in many ways, with ranged weapons being a very small issue in the grand scheme of things.
PS: I think most of us agree on the actual topic though. Couldn't hurt to put a sentence about the melee penalty in the pages about ranged proficiencies.
with the new item, the headband of the devout you can do a lot of damage per hit. you can compare it with a moderately strong two handed weapon in power.
But yeah, it's a good ranged weapon and I always buy it.
I'm only aware that there's a penalty from my memories of the loading screens for BG2 - and even then, I was only aware of the AC penalty, not the THAC one.
edit: we're talking warrior classes, namely figter/thief
But in BG2, it is hidden, but it also happens, mainly with the Big Metal Rod's ammunition, with Firetooth+5 (and also with the Dagger Firetooth+3), with Gesen's Shortbow, Tansheron's Bow, ALL of those are over powered, with the Big Metal Rod's Frag Grenade at the top of it, all this wepons break the game in some way, I mean, in BG2 MMM are ultra-OP at early game, wait, did I've mentioned LICHES? Nope. Neera took down a Lich only with MMM, my M/T PC took down A DEMILICH with MMM (with Time Stop and Improved Haste), I mean, ranged weapons are not a great damage dealing type of weapons, but, hey, I spent all by BG1 profs in longbow because it's OP there, and in BG2 you can't even do something, wait, Long bows are also OP, MUCH MUCH MUCH more in BG2:EE now with those "Arrows+4", it might not be Firetooth+5, but it is something.
And Frag Grenade on Firetooth+5 and Greater Deathblow + Poison Weapon + Improved Haste = The only reason why I took Dorn (this phrase is a best seller).
Ranged weapon are seriously strong in BG2, especially early in the game :
- tuigan bow or the magical dart from WK gives you 3 attack per round (without haste, or specialization,...). Combine that with poison weapon and you will just fly through early game
- MMM is the reason why sorceror have an easy time during ALL BG2 (not only when they get high levels spells). It has both great damage output and great utility.
For the end game, it's true that you probably need some kind of more specialized character (like archer) to compare with the melee powerhouse. But if you want to make the calculation, a 10APR firetoogh on a max level archer gives you the second highest DPS in the game (after kensai), while keeping you out of harm.
As for the orginal topic, sure the information could be more clear. But just watching the dice rolls modifier will tell you that something is wrong.
There was a time when you got a huge tome filled to the brim with knowledge and pretty pictures. Now you just get a warning about epilepsy. Game boxes were cooler then, too
To address the other issue going on here - I think it's a false choice. You can have both melee and ranged weapons, and use both. It only costs a couple proficiency points that you wouldn't use anyway unless you're a straight fighter dual-wielding two different weapons.