Yeah I find it troublesome that the documentation is not reliable. Until I saw this I had actually been shooting bows at close range, because at low level they do more damage! Now I wonder how far away you have to be before the penalties apply - i.e. five feet or ten feet or what?
To address the other issue going on here - I think it's a false choice. You can have both melee and ranged weapons, and use both. It only costs a couple proficiency points that you wouldn't use anyway unless you're a straight fighter dual-wielding two different weapons.
you are insightful. actually i use both switching.
I never knew this and can agree that it would be nice if they told this in the weapon information screen or something. I never encountered the problem myself though, through logical thinking and roleplay I couldn't imagine someone using a ranged weapon effective in close combat. Plus, I did noticed in the moments when close combat with a ranged weapon occured, the character did get hit more easliy, so I drew the conclusion: don't use them in melee. I wonder how players can think of using it in melee. Agreed, they have better damage output given their description, but someone playing the game RP style would most likely not considering or actually use a ranged weapon this way and someone trying to power play would have certainly tried to search this out or (like me) quickly encountered the issue in the game and change plans....
Good info to be aware of, however, an elf archer with a high DEX & a composite longbow will laugh at the point blank range penalty to hit..."oh you're right in front of me, and I'm still holding a bow, sorry for you..."
Yeah that's why it's a penalty and not verboten! There are absolutely characters and circumstances when you just decide to live with it.
What problem is there to solve? The lack of documentation? LIke that's gonna happen.
I am not sure how or why I knew about the penalty, but it is something I've always known. Maybe from my PnP days. But quite frankly, it seems kind of intuitive that you don't use a bow and arrow when someone is right in your face. Plus, if you observe anyone who is doing that, they get hit A LOT.
There are several points where the game's info-docs are less than precise. Someone pointed out recently how easily one might assume that the Cavalier gets more Immunity to Charm effects than the game allows. Another one, at least in my experience, concerns the relative performance of Sleep and Command spells versus Ankhegs. I am still not sure I understand why Sleep works only @50-60% while Command is closer to 80-85%.
But the penalty for Ranged Weapon in a Melee situation is really important stuff. It should definitely have been noted in Manual.
But the penalty for Ranged Weapon in a Melee situation is really important stuff. It should definitely have been noted in Manual.
Frankly, I think it's just common sense. Bows are ranged weapons, you don't use them when someone is in your face. You simply don't have the room to draw it and fire. Sometimes you just have to stop and think about what you would do in real life.
There are several points where the game's info-docs are less than precise. Someone pointed out recently how easily one might assume that the Cavalier gets more Immunity to Charm effects than the game allows. Another one, at least in my experience, concerns the relative performance of Sleep and Command spells versus Ankhegs. I am still not sure I understand why Sleep works only @50-60% while Command is closer to 80-85%.
That whole discussion on what charm protection cavalier's have resulted in it being shown that they are protected by all charm spells, including domination and the charm from sirines.
Ankheg's are level 3 so command would always work on them. The spell Sleep on the otherhand gives a -3 save, so Ankhegs can roll a 16 or better to save against it (so it has a 75% chance of working).
If you want this to stand a chance of being addressed then you should make a feature request for it in the feature request section (previous requests for changes being made to the manual have gone there and its probably the best place on the forum for it).
But the penalty for Ranged Weapon in a Melee situation is really important stuff. It should definitely have been noted in Manual.
Frankly, I think it's just common sense. Bows are ranged weapons, you don't use them when someone is in your face. You simply don't have the room to draw it and fire. Sometimes you just have to stop and think about what you would do in real life.
The fact that there is some kind of penalty for using a ranged weapon in melee is indeed common sense, but it requires more than common sense to know what that penalty is actually comprised of. Therefore I think this is information that merits mentioning somewhere. I like having the rules clear.
Although this should be described somewhere in the manual or in game, it does seem very realistic. Just imagine someone with a longbow in real life trying to shoot at someone that is coming after them with a sword in melee range.
Yeah... That has AC and Thac0 penalty written all over it.
But, from the POV of a new player in early encounters such as Tarnesh, Silke, Cattack ~when the game pre-determines the relative positions of the hostile NPC and at least one of your party NPCs, having or not having such information beforehand could easily affect one's longterm attitude towards the game. I am still uncertain about my ability to judge accurately onscreen the exact distance at which I can use ranged weapon without penalty. @golingarf -Also whether darts can be used at a closer range than bows??
@Belanos: ~Certainly it would be common sense that trying to use a bow in melee situations carries a penalty of some sort, but the precise data is very important info. If it is only a -2 to THACO I might still favor the 2APR of Imoen's Shortbow to the 1APR of ShortSword, particularly against Tarnesh who does not make a melee attack and disruption is all I really want from Imoen.
It would also affect how much risk I am willing to take in Kiting situations. Is it worthwhile getting off that last volley against Unshey's Ogre before equipping Imoen with Shortsword?? Obviously not, since one clobbering from that Morningstar is fatal. The odds in that situation make caution imperative but the point is I would like to be able to use the math to make precise judgments.
For example: Charname and Imoen equipped with Arrows+1 are clearing out the Deadly Doggies in Temple area ~ using the basic method of luring out the beasties one-by-one. All seems to be going well until you note that the Dread Wolf is being followed by a Vampire Wolf. My strategy was going to involve kiting Imoen but in this case I must decide whether to absorb dmge from the Dread Wolf for the sake of extra volleys of the +1Arrows. And also whether Imoen can make normal ranged attacks against the Vampire Wolf 30 ft away even though the Dread Wolf is in her face.
Another item I would like to know more about is using weapons like Halberd, Quarterstaff, Flail. What kind of benefit do they provide compared to melee weapons with shorter reach such as War Hammer, Bastard Sword. Both in terms of normal melee damage and against something like a Ghast. ~This particularly comes up with Kivan, who in my play-throughs is generally AC=2. Anyhow. Live and learn...
@Elminster: I agree that this might be the sort of thing forum members might wish to see implemented. It would be great to see a small subsection of Feature Requests denoted as Manual Notes. Perhaps that might be something to be finalized in the context of a forthcoming BG3.
On the other hand the current situation also has its silver lining in that the player who really gets into the game and does some research actually finds out new stuff that helps, which is kinda cool!! PS: glad to hear the Cavalier clarification. ty.
Comments
I wonder how players can think of using it in melee. Agreed, they have better damage output given their description, but someone playing the game RP style would most likely not considering or actually use a ranged weapon this way and someone trying to power play would have certainly tried to search this out or (like me) quickly encountered the issue in the game and change plans....
I am not sure how or why I knew about the penalty, but it is something I've always known. Maybe from my PnP days. But quite frankly, it seems kind of intuitive that you don't use a bow and arrow when someone is right in your face. Plus, if you observe anyone who is doing that, they get hit A LOT.
But the penalty for Ranged Weapon in a Melee situation is really important stuff. It should definitely have been noted in Manual.
sometimes in Brawl too, but Pit is kinda cheap
There are far more severe issues than this, but it might just be a bad grammar/english type situation and I'm looking too deep into it
Ankheg's are level 3 so command would always work on them. The spell Sleep on the otherhand gives a -3 save, so Ankhegs can roll a 16 or better to save against it (so it has a 75% chance of working).
Yeah... That has AC and Thac0 penalty written all over it.
pre-determines the relative positions of the hostile NPC and at least one of your party NPCs, having or not having such information beforehand could easily affect one's longterm attitude towards the game. I am still uncertain about my ability to judge accurately onscreen the exact distance at which I can use ranged weapon without penalty. @golingarf -Also whether darts can be used at a closer range than bows??
@Belanos: ~Certainly it would be common sense that trying to use a bow in melee situations carries a penalty of some sort, but the precise data is very important info. If it is only a -2 to THACO I might still favor the 2APR of Imoen's Shortbow to the 1APR of ShortSword, particularly against Tarnesh who does not make a melee attack and disruption is all I really want from Imoen.
It would also affect how much risk I am willing to take in Kiting situations. Is it worthwhile getting off that last volley against Unshey's Ogre before equipping Imoen with Shortsword?? Obviously not, since one clobbering from that Morningstar is fatal. The odds in that situation make caution imperative but the point is I would like to be able to use the math to make precise judgments.
For example: Charname and Imoen equipped with Arrows+1 are clearing out the Deadly Doggies in Temple area ~ using the basic method of luring out the beasties one-by-one. All seems to be going well until you note that the Dread Wolf is being followed by a Vampire Wolf. My strategy was going to involve kiting Imoen but in this case I must decide whether to absorb dmge from the Dread Wolf for the sake of extra volleys of the +1Arrows. And also whether Imoen can make normal ranged attacks against the Vampire Wolf 30 ft away even though the Dread Wolf is in her face.
Another item I would like to know more about is using weapons like Halberd, Quarterstaff, Flail. What kind of benefit do they provide compared to melee weapons with shorter reach such as War Hammer, Bastard Sword. Both in terms of normal melee damage and against something like a Ghast. ~This particularly comes up with Kivan, who in my play-throughs is generally AC=2. Anyhow. Live and learn...
@Elminster: I agree that this might be the sort of thing forum members might wish to see implemented. It would be great to see a small subsection of Feature Requests denoted as Manual Notes. Perhaps that might be something to be finalized in the context of a forthcoming BG3.
On the other hand the current situation also has its silver lining in that the player who really gets into the game and does some research actually finds out new stuff that helps, which is kinda cool!! PS: glad to hear the Cavalier clarification. ty.