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Edwin is better than PC mage

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  • WebShamanWebShaman Member Posts: 490
    golingarf said:

    Whoever wrote the 2nd edition rules for red wizards just wasn't thinking.

    Considering that the RWoT are supposed to be adversaries, I think someone was thinking...

    I mean, it is kind of hard to take any group seriously unless they have power to back up their fronts.

    If the Kit (as it is referred to in 2ed) was balanced, yeah. But the way they did Edwin was...kind of cheesy.

    Just saying.

    booinyoureyes
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    I don't think edwin is good only in reason of being a Red Wizard. The amulet is an relic of his family, something that emanate power maybe, after all edwin is an odesserion, an proeminent family in Thay, an powerful artifact of power isn't something so strange to be found with him.
    jackjack
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited February 2014
    golingarf said:

    Fardragon said:


    Even so, you still need to work pretty hard to make a PC that doesn't at least have a better AC and the ability to wear some extremely powerful amulets and a bunch of awesome bhaalspawn powers that Edwin doesn't. Realistically, you are probably also getting serious advantages from being an elf, gnome, or duel classed.

    My first time playing BG2, I made a human conjurer with 9 str, 9 dex, 15 con, and maxed mental stats. Basically all she did was cast spells, and the only thing making her not strictly worse than Imoen, Nalia, and Aerie (also in my party) was her extra spell per level. The bhaalspawn abilities, which I imagine are great for warriors who don't have any spells, were almost useless to her. I might have used the slayer two or three times, but for the most part, why would I want to turn my mage into a fighter? So when I met Edwin (not knowing what he was) and found that he had TWO extra spells per level on top of what I had, I was a bit miffed. I don't mind that some characters do things that no PC can do, but when their special ability is the ability to be enormously better than any legal character at the main thing their class is supposed to do, something has gone wrong. I think most people play fighter-types and that's why they like Edwin. I wonder how they'd feel if they met a fighter with 18/00 strength and an amulet that gives him +5 to hit and damage and an extra attack per round. That's roughly the equivalent of what Edwin is to mages.

    I wouldn't be able to stand giving my character extra spells as some posters above did. I just let her play second fiddle for a while, and when the time came I let Minsc win the fight (not having realized there was going to be a fight - I hadn't played BG1 and didn't know he'd wanted to kill Dynaheir.) But you shouldn't have to cheat to make your character on par with an NPC. Not to mention, even if you don't mind letting your PC be a supporting character, he is just so damn cheap! I can't imagine using him and not feeling dirty, like I might as well just hit ctrl-Y. I'm not of the opinion that my character has to be the best mage in the world. I'm 100% on board with having her be inferior to Irenicus. I'm just not on board with having Irenicus be inferior to some NPC who's following me around. Why is he following me around, anyhow? It seems like I ought to be *his* cohort.

    And by the way, while I did enjoy the amulet of power, I think it's pretty absurd to claim that Edwin's amulet isn't the best one in the game.
    Exactly. You create a gimped character, then whine that the NPC is more powerful than you. Might as well nerf Minsc because he is more powerful than your str 9 ranger.

    You want more spells than Edwin? Play a sorcerer. And don't cry "lacks flexibility" there aren't so many good spells in the game that a sorcerer can't learn all of them, including a couple unavailable to Edwin.

    Oh, and Holy Might is not useless to a Mage, and Horror is equivalent to a couple of 2nd level spell slots.
    Post edited by Fardragon on
    PawnSlayer
  • golingarfgolingarf Member Posts: 157
    edited February 2014
    Exactly. Horror is equivalent to a couple of 2nd level spell slots. Edwin's amulet is equivalent to a couple of every level spell slots.

    And no, it's not like complaining about Minsc at all. Minsc is a legal character plus a marginally useful 1/day ability. If Minsc's strength were 24 instead of 18/93, I would complain about him.

    But it's not really the point that Edwin is better than my mage. Imoen is better than my mage, and that doesn't bother me at all. It's problematic that Edwin is better than any possible character - including a sorcerer by the way, not that they aren't monstrosities too.

    It's not a big problem really, since you can always nerf him, or just not take him. But it's irksome to have to hack the game just to feel like you're not cheating.
    booinyoureyes
  • He may be the best mage, but you can be the best magical fighter this side of Faerun
    Fredjo
  • MitchforkMitchfork Member Posts: 390
    Fardragon said:

    Exactly. You create a gimped character, then whine that the NPC is more powerful than you. Might as well nerf Minsc because he is more powerful than your str 9 ranger.

    You want more spells than Edwin? Play a sorcerer. And don't cry "lacks flexibility" there aren't so many good spells in the game that a sorcerer can't learn all of them, including a couple unavailable to Edwin.

    Oh, and Holy Might is not useless to a Mage, and Horror is equivalent to a couple of 2nd level spell slots.

    I don't get the "just pick Sorcerer" argument- Sorcerers still cap out at 5/level, while Edwin gets 8/level. They're a lot better in other ways, but they're a pretty straight nerf in terms of spell progression until mid-SoA when they get approximately equal.

    It's also kind of telling that the only two ways that you can "beat" Edwin as a pure Arcane caster are to either play Sorcerer or Wild Mage (debatable), and you're still incurring trade-offs on either one. I don't have a huge problem with him but it would be nice if he were more balanced with other Mages.
    booinyoureyes
  • SharnSharn Member Posts: 188
    WebShaman said:

    golingarf said:

    Whoever wrote the 2nd edition rules for red wizards just wasn't thinking.

    Considering that the RWoT are supposed to be adversaries, I think someone was thinking...

    I mean, it is kind of hard to take any group seriously unless they have power to back up their fronts.

    If the Kit (as it is referred to in 2ed) was balanced, yeah. But the way they did Edwin was...kind of cheesy.

    Just saying.

    Red Wizards are actually pretty balanced in 2nd edition, there is a lot of confusion on these forums as to how they work.

    In PNP being a specialist requires you to give up two, not one school of magic, three for an illusionist, this is a pretty severe penalty in a game where all schools of magic have some necessary spells unlike a video game where giving up a school of magic is a no brainer.

    Red wizards also do not actually gain any bonus spells for being red wizards, people who keep saying this on the forums are incorrect. The real rule is that red wizards can take a second specialization if they qualify for it, as apposed to the normal one specialization that any wizard can take if they qualify for it.

    So, if a wizard meets the attribute requirements to become a conjurer, like Edwin does with a 16 con, he can become a conjurer and gain an additional conjuration spell per day each level by giving up access to the schools greater divination and alteration. If that wizard is a red wizard, which Edwin is, and also met the attribute requirements for a second specialization which is not an opposition school to their initial specialization, which Edwin doesn't, in PNP he would not meet the requirements for an additional specialization, then that Red Wizard can dual specialize. At minimum, they would give up 3 schools of magic if their dual specialization shared an opposition school, worst case scenario they give up 5 schools of magic for the two extra spell slots, but most of the time it will be four schools of magic.

    Losing four schools of magic is crippling to a mage in pnp, so in pnp they are relatively balanced, its only in BG's relaxed specialization rules that they would be strong, and of course Edwin is even stronger since he gains an additional spell slot on top of that without any of the penalties. Granted, he does give up his neck slot for these spells, this might even be a big deal if there was actually more then one other neck slot item in the game he would consider wearing, and only on occasion, and since plenty of other characters greatly benefit from it as well, him not wearing it is not a sacrifice.
    FinneousPJFredjobooinyoureyes
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Mitchfork said:

    Fardragon said:

    Exactly. You create a gimped character, then whine that the NPC is more powerful than you. Might as well nerf Minsc because he is more powerful than your str 9 ranger.

    You want more spells than Edwin? Play a sorcerer. And don't cry "lacks flexibility" there aren't so many good spells in the game that a sorcerer can't learn all of them, including a couple unavailable to Edwin.

    Oh, and Holy Might is not useless to a Mage, and Horror is equivalent to a couple of 2nd level spell slots.

    I don't get the "just pick Sorcerer" argument- Sorcerers still cap out at 5/level, while Edwin gets 8/level. They're a lot better in other ways, but they're a pretty straight nerf in terms of spell progression until mid-SoA when they get approximately equal.

    It's also kind of telling that the only two ways that you can "beat" Edwin as a pure Arcane caster are to either play Sorcerer or Wild Mage (debatable), and you're still incurring trade-offs on either one. I don't have a huge problem with him but it would be nice if he were more balanced with other Mages.
    Your idea of beat is very narrow. It is extremely easy to beat Edwin in terms of armor class, thac0s, saving throws, resistances, immunities, use of shields and helmets as well as amulets, casting wishes, number of spells (cleric/illusionist has far more) and ability to spot secret doors without looking.

    Oh, and there is nothing "legal" about Minsc. Check his wisdom.

    If you want to play BG as the most powerful character in the party you can do that. But if you want to play as the weakest character, you can do that too. Game lore doesn't require all Bhaalspawn to be awesomely powerful, just ask the bunny.
  • golingarfgolingarf Member Posts: 157
    edited February 2014
    Fardragon said:


    Oh, and there is nothing "legal" about Minsc. Check his wisdom.

    That does bother me actually. I think the excuse is that he was supposed to have previously had the required stats, and then lost them to repeated head injuries, which would make him a legal character. In a couple of my playthroughs I changed him to a Berserker to deal with this issue, but I found this only ends up making him even more powerful.

    @Fardragon, I'm curious what you would think of my hypothetical above: If there were a Fighter with 18/00 strength and an amulet that gave +5 to hit and +5 to damage and an extra APR with any weapon (stacks with haste), would you take issue with that?
  • golingarfgolingarf Member Posts: 157
    Sharn said:

    WebShaman said:

    golingarf said:

    Whoever wrote the 2nd edition rules for red wizards just wasn't thinking.

    Considering that the RWoT are supposed to be adversaries, I think someone was thinking...

    I mean, it is kind of hard to take any group seriously unless they have power to back up their fronts.

    If the Kit (as it is referred to in 2ed) was balanced, yeah. But the way they did Edwin was...kind of cheesy.

    Just saying.

    Red Wizards are actually pretty balanced in 2nd edition, there is a lot of confusion on these forums as to how they work.

    In PNP being a specialist requires you to give up two, not one school of magic, three for an illusionist, this is a pretty severe penalty in a game where all schools of magic have some necessary spells unlike a video game where giving up a school of magic is a no brainer.

    Red wizards also do not actually gain any bonus spells for being red wizards, people who keep saying this on the forums are incorrect. The real rule is that red wizards can take a second specialization if they qualify for it, as apposed to the normal one specialization that any wizard can take if they qualify for it.

    So, if a wizard meets the attribute requirements to become a conjurer, like Edwin does with a 16 con, he can become a conjurer and gain an additional conjuration spell per day each level by giving up access to the schools greater divination and alteration. If that wizard is a red wizard, which Edwin is, and also met the attribute requirements for a second specialization which is not an opposition school to their initial specialization, which Edwin doesn't, in PNP he would not meet the requirements for an additional specialization, then that Red Wizard can dual specialize. At minimum, they would give up 3 schools of magic if their dual specialization shared an opposition school, worst case scenario they give up 5 schools of magic for the two extra spell slots, but most of the time it will be four schools of magic.

    Losing four schools of magic is crippling to a mage in pnp, so in pnp they are relatively balanced, its only in BG's relaxed specialization rules that they would be strong, and of course Edwin is even stronger since he gains an additional spell slot on top of that without any of the penalties. Granted, he does give up his neck slot for these spells, this might even be a big deal if there was actually more then one other neck slot item in the game he would consider wearing, and only on occasion, and since plenty of other characters greatly benefit from it as well, him not wearing it is not a sacrifice.
    Can you source this? These are definitely not the rules from Spellbound. Those rules are indeed heinously broken, though not quite to the extent that Edwin is.

    If Edwin had four opposition schools and had to allocate his spell slots correctly, I probably wouldn't complain so much. Actually, in PnP I like vanilla mages, and I think Divination is the most useful school. It's a very different game, where ESP, Tongues, Scrying, etc. are all worth more than a hundred summoned monsters. Unfortunately, in BG there are only two or three worthwhile Divination spells. I don't even like See Invisibility - Glitterdust is preferable. It would even have been interesting if Edwin had just been an Enchanter - then at least he would have had a real disability (no contingencies or sequencers) to partially compensate his superpowers.
  • MitchforkMitchfork Member Posts: 390
    Fardragon said:

    Your idea of beat is very narrow. It is extremely easy to beat Edwin in terms of armor class, thac0s, saving throws, resistances, immunities, use of shields and helmets as well as amulets, casting wishes, number of spells (cleric/illusionist has far more) and ability to spot secret doors without looking.

    Well, I did specify "as a pure Arcane caster," so I was intentionally limiting myself to some degree. If you get into multis/duals you're definitely going to have a lot of extra advantages, and most of the time they more than make up for the Arcane spell gap between PC's and Edwin. This is part of the reason why I don't have an issue with his implementation- the set of classes that he beats flat-out in terms of PvE usefulness is small.

    I do agree with @golingarf that it isn't the best game design, though, and a player creating a pure-class Mage could get kind of aggravated that he is as good as he is. Other than his DEX (ranged THAC0/AC) and WIS (only for Wish) he is about as ideal as you get for his class, even without his bonus spells.
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    I am a bit torn on this issue, and didn't care too much anyway, cos I don't ever imagine using Edwin for a long period of time (I can't see myself ever siding with him over MINSC, absolutely unthinkable. :D

    However Edwin clearly is very popular, and I can kinda see why, even beyond the gameplay reasons, so I totally understand why so many people would be opposed to a nerf, and for that reason alone, I wouldn't push for a nerf in the core game via a patch. As with all NPCs, u got the option to not use him, or mod him or your Charname to correct any strong personal feelings about the matter.

    That said, I do understand @golingarf's concern, and don't think he's 'whining', per say, he's got a right to express his opinion on the matter. And as somebody who also likes to use non-min/max'd characters, I'd be a bit peeved if an NPC was consistently superior to me in almost every way. Edwin does make all other pure class mages look weak in comparison.

    On the other hand, I don't feel that my Charname needs to be the strongest member of the party. I really like Kensai=>Mage as a concept cos u start BG 1 being almost useless, and thus u can roleplay a scared, lost and confused young man, more or less just following Jaheira and Khalid, and really relying on their protection to survive. In BG 2 he discovers his magical talents, and gradually comes to the fore as the 'chosen one', and quite certainly the most powerful individual in the group.

    I like that kinda 'Hero's Journey' experience and also the feeling that party members are equally important characters in this epic tale, and not just a bunch of deadweight and a token romance being carried by a godly Charname.
    booinyoureyes
  • SharnSharn Member Posts: 188
    edited February 2014
    @golingarf I am going to just have to admit that I was wrong then, I was referencing a different book that had the rules for red wizards, I was unaware of Spellbound until this moment. The only real penalty for them in that book other then what all specialists suffer from seems to be saving throw penalties, which are meaningless at high levels and the extra penalty to learn new spells. Specialist wizards do still give up two or three schools of magic though, this is spelled out in the 2nd Edition players handbook.

    I was referencing Wizards and Rogues of the realms. Technically both of those book I believe are 1st Edition material, so neither is truly applicable, however which ever book is the most recent would supersede the other. I may look up which is the most recent when I get the chance, as the rules I posted may actually be the proper ones, though the existence of Spellbound will lay weight to any argument in Edwins favor.
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    @Sharn
    Yeah, i said "bonus spells" just for the sake of simplification.
    If 'red wizard' was implemented as a kit in BG it would in fact work as them having bonus spells via additional specialization, so that was the reason i put it so.

    ...
    Lore-wise it would be ok imo if the game allowed he player to become a red wizard at some point and gain this kit along the way (similar to how you change class in ps:t), especially with the addition of the red wizard enclave in BG2. I don't think this can be modded in though.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    golingarf said:

    Fardragon said:


    Oh, and there is nothing "legal" about Minsc. Check his wisdom.

    That does bother me actually. I think the excuse is that he was supposed to have previously had the required stats, and then lost them to repeated head injuries, which would make him a legal character. In a couple of my playthroughs I changed him to a Berserker to deal with this issue, but I found this only ends up making him even more powerful.

    @Fardragon, I'm curious what you would think of my hypothetical above: If there were a Fighter with 18/00 strength and an amulet that gave +5 to hit and +5 to damage and an extra APR with any weapon (stacks with haste), would you take issue with that?
    Not if he had no kit, lousy constitution and dexterity, and was a human with no duel classing potential.

    Beserker rage alone is worth your amulet.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    if "only a bhaalspawn would be able to wear it" does that mean Imoen or Sarevok could? Because I always wanted to make Imoen better than other mages in the game
  • LoubLoub Member Posts: 471

    if "only a bhaalspawn would be able to wear it" does that mean Imoen or Sarevok could? Because I always wanted to make Imoen better than other mages in the game

    They both either lose or give up their Bhaalspawn powers over the course of the game. Although, in Imoen's case, it is only at the ending.
  • YamchaYamcha Member Posts: 486
    edited February 2014
    I made a similar "adjustment" to Nalia's ring. (+1 to all spell grades)
    Its not cheating if you can live with yourself :D

    Whats the alternative ?

    REST - I keep it to a minimum, and only when all spells are depleted or I am at a convenient location (Inn)
    Resting after every fight wouldnt be considered cheating, but I would feel like I did. (after 1000days, the bhaalspawn finally escaped Irenicus Dungeons... )
    Always take Edwin - really great and funny NPC but take him every time because he has the 3 extra slots? Not really fun.
    Live with it - whats the point?
  • BerconBercon Member Posts: 486
    I'd argue that Wild Mage, Sorcerer and multi/dual classed mages are always better than Edwin in terms of power gaming. Vanilla and specialist mages however end up a bit weaker, but then its a matter of taste.

    Edwins weaknesses are:
    - No Amulet of Power, this means no uninterrupted casting of some spells and less benefits from IA
    - No 18 Wisdom, so no casting Wish without potions or other temporary Wisdom boosts
    - Bad non-mage stats, in the beginning 18-20 dex helps with ac plus high str allows you to carry stuff, it also helps to have high dex for MMM and Energy Blades
    - Can't cast True Sight, this only really matters if you are playing with SCS, because with it half of the fights somebody is invisible and those backstabs really hurt

    Anyhow, I think his amulet should give 1 extra spell like it does in BG:EE. Buffing it to 2 extra spells per level was unnecessary. Of course then he'd be worse than min/maxed PC mage in every case.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    edited February 2014
    @Bercon I don't agree, TBH. Amulet of power is quite minor compared to Robe of Vecna, which is the important item in reducing cast times. The robe's not limited in any way. I've never found the wisdom stat a problem, but I don't like abusing wish anyway. I've never found his other stats a problem either, since you just don't need them with mage spells. You can protect from everything with spells. The true sight issue is only an issue if you've no one else that could use the ability. In other words, I've never found it to be a problem.
    Yamchajackjack
  • YamchaYamcha Member Posts: 486
    edited February 2014
    Like PJ said
    Bercon said:


    Edwins weaknesses are:
    - No Amulet of Power, this means no uninterrupted casting of some spells and less benefits from IA

    Robe of Vecna - no cast time
    Bercon said:


    - No 18 Wisdom, so no casting Wish without potions or other temporary Wisdom boosts

    not really a must have spell
    Bercon said:


    - Bad non-mage stats, in the beginning 18-20 dex helps with ac plus high str allows you to carry stuff, it also helps to have high dex for MMM and Energy Blades

    Mages have so many defense spells, AC is lategame pretty much obsolete anyways
    Bercon said:


    - Can't cast True Sight, this only really matters if you are playing with SCS, because with it half of the fights somebody is invisible and those backstabs really hurt

    priest spell/thieving ability does the same



    waeurgg, how does the COLOR TAG work in this forums?
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