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Edwin is better than PC mage

Not anymore.

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booinyoureyesFredjo
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  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    edwin is a red wizard (even if a rogue one)
    his amulet is there to emulate the specialist class of a red wizard that exists in p&p
    they give up two schools and in return get two additional spell slots

    charname is not a red wizard obviously, so this item that you've made is not really lore friendly :)
    Archaosstevenoid
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    @bob_veng Edwin's amulet hardly emulates the class, though.
    Fredjo
  • TaearTaear Member Posts: 90
    Any mage that can't cast Clairvoyance to me isn't going to be superior. Plus, the PC can be a sorcerer and you can't really beat that when it comes to mages in D&D computer games.
    meagloth
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    @FinneousPJ
    The problem is that on top of getting this amulet, edwin is also a normal specialist so he has 3 bonus spell slots instead of just two - so the amulet should just give him one additional spell slot and everything would be fine

    Except that he only has one school restriction instead of two, but that's an engine limitation i guess.

    So they got it as close as possible to p&p with that limitation in mind. I say it emulates it okay. The intent to emulate it is apparent and that's what matters.
    Heindrich
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    I love Edwin and I think he's great, but I think the amulet is a really poor attempt. In BG2 they could have added a proper red wizard kit among the other kits, but they didn't.
    jackjackFredjo
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    If they added the kit then the player would be able to pick it. But the protagonist can't be a Red Wizard because of the story so that's a no go.

    Then they could have added an unselectable kit. But what's the point of that, adding a kit (which is not the simplest of things) that only a single NPC is going to use.

    It'd be superfluous.
  • WebShamanWebShaman Member Posts: 490
    I don't see why one could not add the Red Wizard of Thay kit to the game. Obviously there might be a slight conflict with Neera (hehe), but that just adds spice to the game!

    Being a RWoT doesn't mean you will automatically go along with what the Circle is doing, btw.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    is this a mod????? I want!!!!!!!
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    WebShaman said:

    I don't see why one could not add the Red Wizard of Thay kit to the game. Obviously there might be a slight conflict with Neera (hehe), but that just adds spice to the game!

    Being a RWoT doesn't mean you will automatically go along with what the Circle is doing, btw.


    @WebShaman

    Lore-wise @bob_veng has a good point. Gorion's Ward has a pretty specific background, which is incompatible with being a Red Wizard.

    That said, you could play as a Half-Orc Blackguard, so...
  • WebShamanWebShaman Member Posts: 490
    Who says that a Red Wizard of Thay cannot enter Candelkeep? And why couldn't Charname be trained by such?
  • PawnSlayerPawnSlayer Member Posts: 295
    bob_veng said:

    If they added the kit then the player would be able to pick it. But the protagonist can't be a Red Wizard because of the story so that's a no go.

    Then they could have added an unselectable kit. But what's the point of that, adding a kit (which is not the simplest of things) that only a single NPC is going to use.

    It'd be superfluous.

    They did it with races (Haer'Dalis -Tiefling) so why not a kit? Granted, there are other tieflings in the game in Watcher's Keep, but very few.
    God
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    I'm all for non pickable kits/races for NPCs. That would add exotic elements without directly ruining the main saga, but red wizard surely isn't one of these exotic kits ununsable by main char, not by far.
    booinyoureyes
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    I think @kamuizin makes an excellent point - given that in vanilla we didn't even have kits until BG2, who's to say Edwin didn't take a few wizard CHARNAMEs under his wing in BG1?
    booinyoureyes
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    I outright refuse any argument that says more content shouldn't be added. If it's technically possible, I say please add a RWoT kit.
    jackjackbooinyoureyes
  • MitchforkMitchfork Member Posts: 390
    It would be very interesting to make a double specialist Charname- so many different combinations of schools to choose from, including the ultimate gimp Mage: Transmuter/Enchanter. I suspect that the opposition schools are a hardcoded feature of those classes and would not be easily changed, though.

    Honestly if the specialist mages were implemented more PnP-faithfully nobody would complain about Edwin's extra spells, since Conjurers lose Divination and Invocation spells- no more Magic Missile, Chromatic Orb, Web, Fireball, Spell Sequencer, Chain Contingency, Cloudkill, Mordenkainen's Sword, etc. It would also make double specialists really interesting since you'd have to give up half of the spells in the game to be one (or at least 3/8)... but I really would consider that "overbalanced" and it would only be fun for the most restrictive of players.
    jackjack
  • WebShamanWebShaman Member Posts: 490
    I think just about anybody (and probably any Being) can enter Candlekeep, providing they have the necessary means (like a book of lore, permission, etc).

    So certainly there is the possibility of any imaginable Mentor type for Charname to actually be in Candlekeep.

    The only thing then to consider is what possible chance would Charname have to study and learn under the Mentor. We would have to then take into consideration of what was Gorion really doing, and was he always in Candlekeep 24/7 (I think not), and such factors.

    Tbh - I think that it is entirely possible for Charname to be really anything. Candlekeep is really the perfect starting origin place for just about anything, really.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511

    I outright refuse any argument that says more content shouldn't be added. If it's technically possible, I say please add a RWoT kit.

    The terms of the EE licence doesn't allow for existing NPCs to be modified, so even if a Red Wizard kit where added, it couldn't be given to Edwin.

    Edwin is fine. He is only better than a PC mage if your PCs mage is a single class human with lousy stats and no tomes.
  • knight1337knight1337 Member Posts: 32

    is this a mod????? I want!!!!!!!

    I made a copy of the amulet inside the override folder and then edited it, you can do this easily with NearInfinity

    More information: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/28876/editing-creating-new-items
    booinyoureyes
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    Fardragon said:

    I outright refuse any argument that says more content shouldn't be added. If it's technically possible, I say please add a RWoT kit.

    The terms of the EE licence doesn't allow for existing NPCs to be modified, so even if a Red Wizard kit where added, it couldn't be given to Edwin.

    Edwin is fine. He is only better than a PC mage if your PCs mage is a single class human with lousy stats and no tomes.
    I'd still love the kit
    jackjack
  • MusignyMusigny Member Posts: 1,027
    Perhaps it's not about a justification for a kit...
    A little bit of pride and the imperious requirement to make charname stronger than the npcs.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Musigny said:

    Perhaps it's not about a justification for a kit...
    A little bit of pride and the imperious requirement to make charname stronger than the npcs.

    Musigny said:

    Perhaps it's not about a justification for a kit...
    A little bit of pride and the imperious requirement to make charname stronger than the npcs.

    Even so, you still need to work pretty hard to make a PC that doesn't at least have a better AC and the ability to wear some extremely powerful amulets and a bunch of awesome bhaalspawn powers that Edwin doesn't. Realistically, you are probably also getting serious advantages from being an elf, gnome, or duel classed.
    jackjack
  • MusignyMusigny Member Posts: 1,027
    I fully concur with you.
    Just teasing. A little bit.
    If someone wants to create a more powerful wizard, just do so.
    Whether a red wizard is a plausible kit is a different matter.
  • PawnSlayerPawnSlayer Member Posts: 295
    Fardragon said:

    Musigny said:

    Perhaps it's not about a justification for a kit...
    A little bit of pride and the imperious requirement to make charname stronger than the npcs.

    Musigny said:

    Perhaps it's not about a justification for a kit...
    A little bit of pride and the imperious requirement to make charname stronger than the npcs.

    Even so, you still need to work pretty hard to make a PC that doesn't at least have a better AC and the ability to wear some extremely powerful amulets and a bunch of awesome bhaalspawn powers that Edwin doesn't. Realistically, you are probably also getting serious advantages from being an elf, gnome, or duel classed.
    Agreed. Edwin having that amulet and stuff is great, but it comes at a cost. There are other superb amulets in the game like the Amulet of Power that a PC mage can wear and Edwin can't (without losing the key benefit of his own). Lower spellcasting time means a lot, especially late game when one round can be the difference between victory and defeat.
    jackjack
  • LesseLesse Member Posts: 81
    I did the same. Only I remade Eddie's amulet into a ring for my sorceress to wear :p. Amulet of power, ring of Gaxx and Edwin's ring, which was renamed "the Thayian's Lament."

    Of course, Edwin mostly doesn't care. Which might have something to do with him being Edwina, and turned into a statue in her Planar Sphere follwing her being jealous of a certain Red Wizardess...
    Fredjo
  • golingarfgolingarf Member Posts: 157
    edited February 2014
    Fardragon said:


    Even so, you still need to work pretty hard to make a PC that doesn't at least have a better AC and the ability to wear some extremely powerful amulets and a bunch of awesome bhaalspawn powers that Edwin doesn't. Realistically, you are probably also getting serious advantages from being an elf, gnome, or duel classed.

    My first time playing BG2, I made a human conjurer with 9 str, 9 dex, 15 con, and maxed mental stats. Basically all she did was cast spells, and the only thing making her not strictly worse than Imoen, Nalia, and Aerie (also in my party) was her extra spell per level. The bhaalspawn abilities, which I imagine are great for warriors who don't have any spells, were almost useless to her. I might have used the slayer two or three times, but for the most part, why would I want to turn my mage into a fighter? So when I met Edwin (not knowing what he was) and found that he had TWO extra spells per level on top of what I had, I was a bit miffed. I don't mind that some characters do things that no PC can do, but when their special ability is the ability to be enormously better than any legal character at the main thing their class is supposed to do, something has gone wrong. I think most people play fighter-types and that's why they like Edwin. I wonder how they'd feel if they met a fighter with 18/00 strength and an amulet that gives him +5 to hit and damage and an extra attack per round. That's roughly the equivalent of what Edwin is to mages.

    I wouldn't be able to stand giving my character extra spells as some posters above did. I just let her play second fiddle for a while, and when the time came I let Minsc win the fight (not having realized there was going to be a fight - I hadn't played BG1 and didn't know he'd wanted to kill Dynaheir.) But you shouldn't have to cheat to make your character on par with an NPC. Not to mention, even if you don't mind letting your PC be a supporting character, he is just so damn cheap! I can't imagine using him and not feeling dirty, like I might as well just hit ctrl-Y. I'm not of the opinion that my character has to be the best mage in the world. I'm 100% on board with having her be inferior to Irenicus. I'm just not on board with having Irenicus be inferior to some NPC who's following me around. Why is he following me around, anyhow? It seems like I ought to be *his* cohort.

    And by the way, while I did enjoy the amulet of power, I think it's pretty absurd to claim that Edwin's amulet isn't the best one in the game.
    booinyoureyes
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    My CHARNAMEs tend to be the weakest member of the party, so I guess that could contribute to this not bothering me in the slightest.
    Delvarian
  • golingarfgolingarf Member Posts: 157
    Well, I wasn't exactly powergaming - I knew that taking good physical stats was the right way to go (and when I think of it it might have been 8 str and dex, not that it makes any difference.) My character wasn't really "better" than Imoen, Nalia, or Aerie. But even if you don't have jealousy issues, he's so overpowered that using him just feels like cheating. Sort of like using Korax to kill the basilisks in BG1. Whoever wrote the 2nd edition rules for red wizards just wasn't thinking.
    jackjackbooinyoureyes
  • kryptixkryptix Member Posts: 741
    I hardly ever use Edwin but if argue that a wild Mage or sorcerer are both stronger casters for earlier access to the best level 9 spells in the sorcerers case and very early access to all contingency type spells including chain contingency with no chance to trigger a surge for the wild mage.

    Also my neera let me wish 8 times during the amelyssan fight to get the rest option in one super unlucky streak where it just wouldn't come up...
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