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Does Irenicus have low wisdom? [Spoilers for BG2]

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  • tennisgolfbolltennisgolfboll Member Posts: 457
    edited February 2014
    She had the power if not a title. But that is not the point. No matter what enemy charname faces it all ends the same. Even if they can draw endlessly from bhaals power, the three of life or any other source.

    roflstomped is the result.

    irenicus did all he could. He was smart, full of wisdom and took power from the tree that made him "beyond imagination powerful".

    what he could not know was that it would not stop charname and so he was roflstomped
  • tennisgolfbolltennisgolfboll Member Posts: 457
    edited February 2014
    Charname stopped him without his soul, he was an empty husk. Irenicus had the drow, the tree and his amazing magic power and bhaalpower.

    the result? Destroyed irenicus
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    Ah yes, but without Power Word: Reload, many of my CHARNAMEs would have fallen prey to myriad wolves and bears, so perhaps it is all relative.
    booinyoureyes
  • WebShamanWebShaman Member Posts: 490
    No, what all of you are not admitting, what Irenicus, Sarevok, and Missy cannot admit, cannot fathom, cannot...comprehend - is the power of the script.

    Charname wins. It is in the script.

    There IS no greater power. Even gods die, when it is in the script.

    Word.
    jackjackMacHurtorecklessheartbooinyoureyes
  • AristilliusAristillius Member Posts: 873
    I have read excellent arguments about the rationale of Irenicus' actions, especially concerning charname's capture - but I have yet to see convincing arguments against what I see as the largest issue with Irenicus' plan. Admittedly it is speculative, but let us say that charname failed after Irenicus stole his soul.
    A) His plan to consume the tree of life was doomed to fail from the beginning because the elven gods would not accept him into their pantheon.
    B) In his second attempy, nothing has changed. With the Bhaal essence he might have succeeded in becoming some sort of murder-god, but would he be accepted as an elven god? I doubt it. The goal in itself is irrational and seems to be powered only by ambition: "I want to become a god - I have no idea what will happen after I consume the tree". He might have succeeded in most other overtures - but his godhood-plan seems to be unrealistic.
  • WebShamanWebShaman Member Posts: 490
    First of all, it is a bit presumptious to think that the Seldarine control all the Elven Gods and have control over who can be an Elven God - they do not. Lolth is a good example of this.

    Ao made it absolutely clear that Gods have to care about their worshipers wishes (See Time of Troubles). And should enough elves want Irenicus as a God...well, I rather suspect that that would occur, with or without the Seldarine's approval.

    Now, would Irenicus' plan have worked?

    Depends on the script, doesn't it?

    I think that the question should be re-formulated. According to Cannon, is Irenicus' plan feasible?

    To be able to answer that, I think we need to know more about this Tree of Life first.

    To be come a God, one has to somehow obtain Divine ranks - so how does one do that from draining the Tree of Life? Does it have Divine ranks? And how can they be "drained" by a mortal?

    Also, when one becomes a God, one then receives either one or more Portfolios. Since these are all "given", that would mean that some God or Goddess would have to give one or more up, accordingly. I don't see that happening willingly, either (though I think Irenicus would make a superb God of Revenge, don't you think?)

    I personally think that perhaps Irenicus wasn't so much concerned with becoming a God as was with getting revenge. The consequences of the end of the Tree of Life I think were what Irenicus was really aiming for - and perhaps Immortality as a God was just an afterthought, or aftereffect.

    I mean, from an Elves' perspective, what Irenicus does (and the lengths that he goes) is really quite extraordinary for one of his race. His desire for revenge is surely all-consuming, allowing him to use any and all means to accomplish the end.

    To me, it is not really even evil - it goes beyond that. It is almost Cthulhian in nature - so totally insane, incomprehensible and beyond measure that it goes screaming by evil and straight into that realm of stark raving madness.

    I am sure that in his house at R'lyeh, dead Cthulhu smiled.
  • recklessheartrecklessheart Member Posts: 692
    Also it might be worth taking into account Bohdi's role in the events. Perhaps one argues that Irenicus has low wisdom for even attempting the plan, however Bohdi is the one that tempted him into it: her charisma and influence on her brother is as much to take into account than any ambition on Irenicus' part.

    Furthermore, I do believe the idea is that by force Irenicus would make his way into the pantheon: obviously it would not be a desirable addition, as exercised by Rillifane Rallathil's direct intervention. With enough power and the right plan however, Irenicus would have earned his right to Godhood, and it is plausible that Ao would have veto'ed any attempt on Corellon's part to lock down this turn of events.
  • AristilliusAristillius Member Posts: 873
    @WebShaman
    Yeah, revenge might be his main reason on his second attempt - but not on his first attempt?
  • recklessheartrecklessheart Member Posts: 692
    @Arisillius See above: the poisonous influence of ambitious Bohdi. She is, one might suggest, the real evil behind the story detailed in SoA.
  • WebShamanWebShaman Member Posts: 490
    Who really knows what was driving him on the first time. Was it lust for power? Lust for love? Or something else?

    It hardly matters - Irenicus afterwards, is not the same Irenicus as before, of course.
  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 858
    If you ask me, Irenicus was doomed to failure the moment he decided to use a Bhaalspawn as the source for his new soul. Do you think for one moment that the Bhaal Essence would consent to being subservient to an exiled elf that had no blood right to the power of the Slayer?

    Ameli has the same problem, too. Sarevok truly is the only BBEG that the Bhaal Essence would have supported given the choice.
  • MoczoMoczo Member Posts: 236
    edited February 2014



    Furthermore, I do believe the idea is that by force Irenicus would make his way into the pantheon: obviously it would not be a desirable addition, as exercised by Rillifane Rallathil's direct intervention. With enough power and the right plan however, Irenicus would have earned his right to Godhood, and it is plausible that Ao would have veto'ed any attempt on Corellon's part to lock down this turn of events.

    It is possible he would have become a god (assuming the tree of life can give Divine levels, which hey, it is a magic tree). But by Ao's own laws, Corellon is REQUIRED to punish elven deities who pull shit like betraying the People for their own benefit. It's part of his defined duties as king of the Seldarine; just ask Lolth. So Irenicus's basic plan is to become a demipower with no worshippers and stroll up to a Greater God who has, as part of his specific list of duties, 'kill punks like this', and say, "I'm moving in, where's my room?"

    And the thing is? It works as a plan for him, because he REALLY IS THAT ARROGANT. He legitimately believes that he is such an awesome elf that he DESERVES to be an elf god, and surely all the other elf gods will agree. After all, they're his REAL peers, and all those haters calling his plans 'insane' or 'totally impossible' are just jealous.
  • WebShamanWebShaman Member Posts: 490
    Well, slow down for a second here. If Irenicus takes up a portfolio (Elven God of Revenge would fit nicely) and there are surely those among the Elves who would support this (remember, we are not talking about specifically those who are loyal supporters of Irenicus himself, providing there are any, but instead about all Elves that desire revenge, for one reason or another), then Corellion is REQUIRED to allow it - for this is one of the things that the Time of Troubles aimed to fix. Namely, that Gods really do stick to their Portfolio(s) and take the needs of the worshipers seriously.

    I personally think that if Irenicus could obtain godhood through absorbing the Tree of Life (though I am not positive that it would have worked - again, the question of obtaining Divine Ranks here), then the chances of him becoming something like I have outlined above and before to be quite plausible.
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    @WebShaman
    Actually, there is an elven god of revenge. It's Shevarash.

    "Shevarash is the elven deity of revenge, loss and hatred of the Drow. He never displays any emotion aside from anger and the occasional exultation after the death of an enemy. The Black Archer is disdainful of moderation in the pursuit of revenge, and will often strike preemptively against his foes. "

    Though Irenicus could become one of the Dark Seldarine which would be more likely.
    Hatred of the Seldarine, Mages and Revenge, perhaps.
    Aristillius
  • WebShamanWebShaman Member Posts: 490
    Yes, I know that there is already a deity that has the revenge portfolio - but it also has two others. So it would be quite possible to "give one up", accordingly (re: reassign). I never said it would be easy, or without consequence. But sometimes, that is how it is amongst the gods.

    And although yeah, Irenicus could perhaps become one of the Dark Seldarine, but I am not so sure about that. Though the portfolios that you have mentioned are quite appealing, as well as matching.
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