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Does Irenicus have low wisdom? [Spoilers for BG2]

Okay, I was thinking about some points @booinyoureyes made in the discussion about favored antagonists. Specifically that Irenicus made a few bad moves considering charname by letting him go, now that is debateable becuase he wanted to let his sister "play with her food" - well argued by @the_spyder.

It got me thinking that maybe Irenicus has low wisdom. Now of course the premise here is that wisdom is a imprecise abstractation of abilities such as judgement and common sense (which in themselves are insufficient), but it is interesting to use because we are all familar with the term even though there probably are somewhat contesting views concerning its actual definition.

My main point for questioning Irenicus' wisdom is his bid to become a god - he had a awesome girlfriend, was the master magician in his home town and everybody respected him. Yet he tried to consume the powers of the elder tree (someone correct me here if Im getting the details wrong) - one, if not the most sacred object of the elven realm in order to become a god. I am really curious, what did he expect? Did he actually believe he would succeed? It seems to be an incredibly foolhardy plan. Of course the Seldarine and other elves wouldnt stand for it?

Perhaps we can somehow formulate Irenicus' fatal flaw here? His tactical genius is marred by his inability to take into account vital elements. Such as destroying potential enemies - CHARNAME was after all an experienced adventurer with no small power at the time that Irenicus failed to just snuff him out. I love the Irenicus characetr, but like all good characters he should have some flaws, and maybe this is it?

Anyway, I assume we all can agree that Irenicus' intelligence is incredibly high, his amazing magical prowess, quick thinking and complicated machinations are proof of that - Maybe his intelligence is as high as 19/20? What do you guys think his wisdom is?

Oh, and this is probably the nerdiest debate I have initiated :)

Chack
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Comments

  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    edited January 2014
    Just checked his Wisdom in the game files, and the lowest he has is 11, in a dream Irenicus that only appears on cutscenes, all the others have 18 WIS.
    EDIT: I know this wasn't the topic :)
    Aristillius
  • MitchforkMitchfork Member Posts: 390
    I believe Irenicus' in-game WIS score is 18, but that's just a number somebody probably threw in without much thought.
    Kamigoroshibooinyoureyes
  • moody_magemoody_mage Member Posts: 2,054
    Speaking purely in terms of stats he generally has 18 in Wisdom, Dex and Int, 17 in Cha, 14 Con and 13 Str (a 98 point character).
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    AristilliusbooinyoureyesBelgarathMTH
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,345
    edited January 2014

    Yet he tried to consume the powers of the elder tree (someone correct me here if Im getting the details wrong) - one, if not the most sacred object of the elven realm in order to become a god. I am really curious, what did he expect? Did he actually believe he would succeed? It seems to be an incredibly foolhardy plan. Of course the Seldarine and other elves wouldnt stand for it?

    Yet when we finally catch up to him, he has Suldanessellar defeated, Ellesime captured and is hard at work sapping the power of the tree. By all accounts his plan would have succeeded if not for the intervention of charname - which is more than can be said about Sarevok's grand design.

    Also @Shandyr I don't agree - if Sarevok cared that much about killing charname he shouldn't have let his bloodlust get the better of him to a point where he lets you escape when standing a few yards from you. And trusting his various minions and hirelings to do his job for him throughout the remainder of the game is really no better than Irenicus trusting Bodhi to finish you off - in fact Irenicus is probably wiser in trusting Bodhi since she's his sister and likely a lot more capable than Sarevok's bounty hunters.
    Aristillius
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,345
    Mitchfork said:

    Once he gets a soul, he starts to make mistakes and gets a bit too big for his britches. BG2 doesn't give us a firm timeline to work off of, but Irenicus has been functioning without emotions for what must have been years. I imagine their immediate return was a bit overwhelming and caused him to lose his better judgment.

    This is a good point from an RP point of view, but aside from leaving charname alive (i.e. trusting Bodhi and/or the lack of a soul to take care of it), he doesn't really seem to make a lot of mistakes. His attack on Suldanessellar and revenge on Ellesime & co had been planned for a long time (and by all accounts runs like clockwork after he departs from Spellhold, even with all the trouble charname causes in Ust'Natha), and afaik there's no indication that his plan to take the powers of the tree for himself wouldn't accomplish exactly what he meant for it to, arrogant and megalomaniac as it might be.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    edited January 2014
    The difference between Irenicus and Saravok is that Saravok is a Hammer and Irenicus is a Scalpel. That's pretty much it. Saravok is all "Kill, maim, destroy". Sure, he puts on a good front and spins a nice yarn to gain power, but he is VERY bloody-handed about the whole thing. Irenicus takes a more practiced approach and uses finesse instead of brute force.

    To answer the OP, my personal opinion is that Irenicus' short comings are not a lack of Wisdom, but a different focus. He wants to be a God because he thinks he is worthy of being one. More than that, he is predestined to be one and nothing will stand in his way. He sees obstacles in his way, but they are merely that, obstacles. Charname isn't a threat, he is a tool and a means to an end. He isn't afraid of the Elves because he believes he is capable of overcoming them. In fact, more than being capable, he believes he is destined to be a god. It's a bit short sighted of him, but it isn't a lack of wisdom, but merely a miss-understanding of his place in the universe.

    Sure, these are the signs of megalomania and definite signs of being unhinged. But, it is more of a blind spot than folly or lack of wisdom.

    All in my humble opinion.
    AristilliusjackjackBelgarathMTH
  • AristilliusAristillius Member Posts: 873
    Thanks for all the insightful answers guys - Ill respond more tomorrow. Oh, and please dont mix the game stats into this ;)
    Of course, any guesses is mostly speculative because we have limited information about Irenicus' thought process - but very interesting none the less.
    Oh, and @Shin, sorry about the OP being unclear - I meant his initial attempt at consuming the tree (where he lost his soul to begin with).
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  • uglyducklynnuglyducklynn Member Posts: 61
    I would argue that Irenicus would have a high wisdom stat, but like many great villains, is blinded by his passion and makes one (or several) oversights that lead to his downfall. It could be said that many characters that were very knowledgable and wise had an untimely demise due to a mistake on their part, being one-track minded or blind to all but their ambition. Biting off more than they can chew or having a sudden, unexpected event cloud their judgement during a vital decision making process. I suppose it could even boil down to the fact that everyone makes mistakes, no matter how high your intelligence and wisdom might be, you have to slip up somewhere. And his slip up, in the long run, ended up being quite costly.
    Aristillius
  • TwaniTwani Member Posts: 640
    Honestly, Irenicus really only makes one big mistake, and that's letting the PC live after taking their soul.

    First time, he trusted Bodhi to do away with it, but after Bodhi came back reporting "Uh, no, she turned in to a raving monster and tried to eat ME", he should have done a "Hm, probably something I should check out" and saw CHARNAME killed personally. As it is, you and the inmates beat down on him, he kills all the inmates, and... just decides to what, leave you to Yoshimo? Oh, the horror. Sure, he could be overloaded on 'soul! emotions! stuff! wee!', but 'kill the enemy who has proven resourceful, able to turn in to the avatar of a dead god, and has many reasons to want you dead' is pretty reasonable tactic. He knows he and Bodhi survived without a soul for how many years now- why did he think it would kill CHARNAME?

    But other then that Irenicus plays it very smart, and if he had decided to come at CHARNAME full power then- well, we'd lose half a game, and that would be a battle few players could win at the time. So it's sort of like 'the game must go on', in a sense.

    I don't think that necessarily means low wisdom. It just means one bad- really bad, and for him, deadly- judgement call.
  • MacHurtoMacHurto Member Posts: 731
    Irenicus only makes one mistake: letting you live after taking your soul. After that, you overpower him with the help of several epic level mages (otherwise you die) and he has to flee, as his plans are more important than that battle.

    Other than that he has calculated everything perfectly, imho.

    Why letting you live? I like the explanation than getting a soul back clouds momentarily his judgment. He might also be overconfident, seeing how he has beaten you twice. You are obviously below him.

    I wouldnt say he has low wisdom. Except that one single decision, he does not rush to conclusions or do something hasty without a plan. I see sarevok much less wise than him
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    edited January 2014
    An old mentor of mine was quite fond of telling me: "Wisdom is only possessed by the learned."
    Building on that, have you SEEN the man's library?
    CrevsDaakBelgarathMTHbooinyoureyes
  • TidusTidus Member Posts: 86
    @Aristillius
    have you ever read 'Dune' saga by Frank Herbert?
    Irenicus = mentat
    which means:
    false data -> false results
    wisdom doesn't really get into it...
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    I'd say that it may be arrogance rather than lack of wisdom that causes Irenicus not to finish off CHARNAME.

    He has a habit of disregarding "lesser" opponents. "You dare to attack me here? Do you even know whom you face?" being one example. He is pretty badass by all accounts, and has a yellow pages full of enemies - why worry in particular about one soulless godspawn unable to control his own waning powers? (Or so he may reason)
  • elementelement Member Posts: 833
    he always struck me as a high int low wis kinda guy
    booinyoureyes
  • WebShamanWebShaman Member Posts: 490
    The way I see it, he does not truly consider Charname a threat to his plans (he is not a Bhaalspawn, and is not trying to become a God that way). His plan to Godhood is quite different, and Charname only figured into it as a source of a soul.

    Once he had what he needed to continue his plans with, he did just that - continued with his plans. He shows a remarkable amount of steadfast determination and persistence.

    I see the question as being asked incorrectly. Why should Irenicus kill Charname? Just takes time, power, and assets. All can better be used elsewhere. Obviously Charname has failed to stop Irenicus before - why should that suddenly change?

    Sarevok, on the other hand, knows he has to kill Charname. In fact, he has to eliminate all the other Bhaalspawn. Totally different drive here.

    I think Irenicus considers it inconceivable that Charname could intervene and actually prevent his plans from coming to fruition. The lengths that Charname has to go to do so is quite mind-boggling IMHO. What, exactly, does Charname get out of it all?

    Oh yeah, a thank you >.<

    Tbh, Irenicus almost succeeded - Charname almost didn't succeed in stopping Irenicus in time (we will try to not consider that that was a plot concept, right? Right).

    If Irenicus miscalculated, it was in something that was not foreseeable - the incredibly rapid growth of power in Charname. Truly, from the time of capture until final confrontation, how much time had passed? Less than a year?

    In that time, Charname goes from level 7~8 to what, Epic levels? Mind-boggling. Probably broke every conceivable XP per second record!!

    Truly, I don't possibly see how Irenicus could foresee this happening.
    Aristillius
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    CrevsDaak said:

    Just checked his Wisdom in the game files, and the lowest he has is 11, in a dream Irenicus that only appears on cutscenes, all the others have 18 WIS.
    EDIT: I know this wasn't the topic :)

    True, in game stats have him with 18 Wis BUT some versions (maybe current one too?) have him as Chaotic Good. The reason of that is that the developers basically took Elminster's stats and gave them to him and just changed his model.
    So I'm not sure how accurate his stats are to his personality.

    Maybe he tried to pull a Karsus to become a god and actually help. Though we know for certain that Bodhi tempted him into it.
    Irenicus still has some redeeming qualities to him as on the Tree of Life his calls Ellesime "...My Queen?!".
    And when called Joneleth by her he replies "...don't call me that. I lost all rights to that name."

    Maybe he has some regrets deep down but he is still blinded by revenge. "Now I hunger only for revenge. And I... WILL... HAVE IT."
    CrevsDaak
  • MoczoMoczo Member Posts: 236
    And related, more than one character, including Rillifane Himself, does clearly state his plan for the Tree has a 0% of success. He doesn't just want to be a god, he wants to be an ELF god, and joining the Seldarine without Corellon Larethian's approval just does not happen, period.
  • MacHurtoMacHurto Member Posts: 731
    He also shows wisdom in the cutscene chapter 4 -> 5 with the drow.
  • WebShamanWebShaman Member Posts: 490

    It's more him saying "Okay, I'm done with that, Bohdi can do whatever as he's going to die anyway, and I have bigger fish to fry".

    I absolutely agree with everything you posted except the above. It should read "Okay, I'm done with that, Bohdi can do whatever she wants with Charname. I have other important tasks to do".

    Nice post.

  • tennisgolfbolltennisgolfboll Member Posts: 457
    Sarevok would have been the new bhaal if not for charname. Irenicus would have ascended if not for charname.

    What neither of them could ever know is that charname can wade through any enemies just for the lulz.

    They made no mistakes, it was unthinkable that charname would kill endless demons, ancient dragons or anything else (mellisan drawing on endless bhaal essence was toyed with).

    Charname simply was unstoppable.

  • tennisgolfbolltennisgolfboll Member Posts: 457
    How powerful was irenicus? Twice did he almost destroy suld. He almost ascended. He was the most powerful elven mage etc.

    bodhi? She would have destroyed the shadow thieves etc

    yaga shura? Immortal...almost

    The demon that helm had bound and feared would get loose?

    And many many more beyond belief powerful beings ALL rofledstomped by charname.

    Face it, nothing could stand against charname...but how could they have known?

    Had irenicus ascended charname would still have destroyed him
  • tennisgolfbolltennisgolfboll Member Posts: 457
    To answer the question:

    Irenicus has very very high wisdom.
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    edited February 2014
    @tennisgolfboll
    Without any direct aid from another god? Probably not.
    Charname stood a chance against Amelyssan exactly because she wasn't a goddess. And even then, charname couldn't kill her.
    The same with Irenicus and Sarevok.
  • tennisgolfbolltennisgolfboll Member Posts: 457
    Melissan knew what you say....she was unstoppable...endless bhaal power vs a mortal.
    100% win.

    The outcome ? She had to hide and draw power over and over and was stomped ez mode.

    she like all other enemies of charname was beaten...big time. No matter what endless power they had, armies, tricks etc.
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    edited February 2014
    @tennisgolfboll
    Amelyssan had much of the power of Bhaal's essence but she was no god.

    Solar:"You are no god, priestess of Bhaal. You play with stolen energies that make you immortal, that give you great power... but that does not make you a god."

    A mortal cannot kill a god without the aid of another god. That's pretty much a fact.
    jackjackelminster
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