Does Irenicus have low wisdom? [Spoilers for BG2]
Aristillius
Member Posts: 873
Okay, I was thinking about some points @booinyoureyes made in the discussion about favored antagonists. Specifically that Irenicus made a few bad moves considering charname by letting him go, now that is debateable becuase he wanted to let his sister "play with her food" - well argued by @the_spyder.
It got me thinking that maybe Irenicus has low wisdom. Now of course the premise here is that wisdom is a imprecise abstractation of abilities such as judgement and common sense (which in themselves are insufficient), but it is interesting to use because we are all familar with the term even though there probably are somewhat contesting views concerning its actual definition.
My main point for questioning Irenicus' wisdom is his bid to become a god - he had a awesome girlfriend, was the master magician in his home town and everybody respected him. Yet he tried to consume the powers of the elder tree (someone correct me here if Im getting the details wrong) - one, if not the most sacred object of the elven realm in order to become a god. I am really curious, what did he expect? Did he actually believe he would succeed? It seems to be an incredibly foolhardy plan. Of course the Seldarine and other elves wouldnt stand for it?
Perhaps we can somehow formulate Irenicus' fatal flaw here? His tactical genius is marred by his inability to take into account vital elements. Such as destroying potential enemies - CHARNAME was after all an experienced adventurer with no small power at the time that Irenicus failed to just snuff him out. I love the Irenicus characetr, but like all good characters he should have some flaws, and maybe this is it?
Anyway, I assume we all can agree that Irenicus' intelligence is incredibly high, his amazing magical prowess, quick thinking and complicated machinations are proof of that - Maybe his intelligence is as high as 19/20? What do you guys think his wisdom is?
Oh, and this is probably the nerdiest debate I have initiated
It got me thinking that maybe Irenicus has low wisdom. Now of course the premise here is that wisdom is a imprecise abstractation of abilities such as judgement and common sense (which in themselves are insufficient), but it is interesting to use because we are all familar with the term even though there probably are somewhat contesting views concerning its actual definition.
My main point for questioning Irenicus' wisdom is his bid to become a god - he had a awesome girlfriend, was the master magician in his home town and everybody respected him. Yet he tried to consume the powers of the elder tree (someone correct me here if Im getting the details wrong) - one, if not the most sacred object of the elven realm in order to become a god. I am really curious, what did he expect? Did he actually believe he would succeed? It seems to be an incredibly foolhardy plan. Of course the Seldarine and other elves wouldnt stand for it?
Perhaps we can somehow formulate Irenicus' fatal flaw here? His tactical genius is marred by his inability to take into account vital elements. Such as destroying potential enemies - CHARNAME was after all an experienced adventurer with no small power at the time that Irenicus failed to just snuff him out. I love the Irenicus characetr, but like all good characters he should have some flaws, and maybe this is it?
Anyway, I assume we all can agree that Irenicus' intelligence is incredibly high, his amazing magical prowess, quick thinking and complicated machinations are proof of that - Maybe his intelligence is as high as 19/20? What do you guys think his wisdom is?
Oh, and this is probably the nerdiest debate I have initiated
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EDIT: I know this wasn't the topic
Also @Shandyr I don't agree - if Sarevok cared that much about killing charname he shouldn't have let his bloodlust get the better of him to a point where he lets you escape when standing a few yards from you. And trusting his various minions and hirelings to do his job for him throughout the remainder of the game is really no better than Irenicus trusting Bodhi to finish you off - in fact Irenicus is probably wiser in trusting Bodhi since she's his sister and likely a lot more capable than Sarevok's bounty hunters.
Once he gets a soul, he starts to make mistakes and gets a bit too big for his britches. BG2 doesn't give us a firm timeline to work off of, but Irenicus has been functioning without emotions for what must have been years. I imagine their immediate return was a bit overwhelming and caused him to lose his better judgment.
To answer the OP, my personal opinion is that Irenicus' short comings are not a lack of Wisdom, but a different focus. He wants to be a God because he thinks he is worthy of being one. More than that, he is predestined to be one and nothing will stand in his way. He sees obstacles in his way, but they are merely that, obstacles. Charname isn't a threat, he is a tool and a means to an end. He isn't afraid of the Elves because he believes he is capable of overcoming them. In fact, more than being capable, he believes he is destined to be a god. It's a bit short sighted of him, but it isn't a lack of wisdom, but merely a miss-understanding of his place in the universe.
Sure, these are the signs of megalomania and definite signs of being unhinged. But, it is more of a blind spot than folly or lack of wisdom.
All in my humble opinion.
Of course, any guesses is mostly speculative because we have limited information about Irenicus' thought process - but very interesting none the less.
Oh, and @Shin, sorry about the OP being unclear - I meant his initial attempt at consuming the tree (where he lost his soul to begin with).
First time, he trusted Bodhi to do away with it, but after Bodhi came back reporting "Uh, no, she turned in to a raving monster and tried to eat ME", he should have done a "Hm, probably something I should check out" and saw CHARNAME killed personally. As it is, you and the inmates beat down on him, he kills all the inmates, and... just decides to what, leave you to Yoshimo? Oh, the horror. Sure, he could be overloaded on 'soul! emotions! stuff! wee!', but 'kill the enemy who has proven resourceful, able to turn in to the avatar of a dead god, and has many reasons to want you dead' is pretty reasonable tactic. He knows he and Bodhi survived without a soul for how many years now- why did he think it would kill CHARNAME?
But other then that Irenicus plays it very smart, and if he had decided to come at CHARNAME full power then- well, we'd lose half a game, and that would be a battle few players could win at the time. So it's sort of like 'the game must go on', in a sense.
I don't think that necessarily means low wisdom. It just means one bad- really bad, and for him, deadly- judgement call.
Other than that he has calculated everything perfectly, imho.
Why letting you live? I like the explanation than getting a soul back clouds momentarily his judgment. He might also be overconfident, seeing how he has beaten you twice. You are obviously below him.
I wouldnt say he has low wisdom. Except that one single decision, he does not rush to conclusions or do something hasty without a plan. I see sarevok much less wise than him
Building on that, have you SEEN the man's library?
have you ever read 'Dune' saga by Frank Herbert?
Irenicus = mentat
which means:
false data -> false results
wisdom doesn't really get into it...
He has a habit of disregarding "lesser" opponents. "You dare to attack me here? Do you even know whom you face?" being one example. He is pretty badass by all accounts, and has a yellow pages full of enemies - why worry in particular about one soulless godspawn unable to control his own waning powers? (Or so he may reason)
Once he had what he needed to continue his plans with, he did just that - continued with his plans. He shows a remarkable amount of steadfast determination and persistence.
I see the question as being asked incorrectly. Why should Irenicus kill Charname? Just takes time, power, and assets. All can better be used elsewhere. Obviously Charname has failed to stop Irenicus before - why should that suddenly change?
Sarevok, on the other hand, knows he has to kill Charname. In fact, he has to eliminate all the other Bhaalspawn. Totally different drive here.
I think Irenicus considers it inconceivable that Charname could intervene and actually prevent his plans from coming to fruition. The lengths that Charname has to go to do so is quite mind-boggling IMHO. What, exactly, does Charname get out of it all?
Oh yeah, a thank you >.<
Tbh, Irenicus almost succeeded - Charname almost didn't succeed in stopping Irenicus in time (we will try to not consider that that was a plot concept, right? Right).
If Irenicus miscalculated, it was in something that was not foreseeable - the incredibly rapid growth of power in Charname. Truly, from the time of capture until final confrontation, how much time had passed? Less than a year?
In that time, Charname goes from level 7~8 to what, Epic levels? Mind-boggling. Probably broke every conceivable XP per second record!!
Truly, I don't possibly see how Irenicus could foresee this happening.
So I'm not sure how accurate his stats are to his personality.
Maybe he tried to pull a Karsus to become a god and actually help. Though we know for certain that Bodhi tempted him into it.
Irenicus still has some redeeming qualities to him as on the Tree of Life his calls Ellesime "...My Queen?!".
And when called Joneleth by her he replies "...don't call me that. I lost all rights to that name."
Maybe he has some regrets deep down but he is still blinded by revenge. "Now I hunger only for revenge. And I... WILL... HAVE IT."
If the developers approached Irenicus and said "Actually, the game is about this guy, we're going to follow CHARNAME's story", Irenicus would probably be quite surprised. Aside from when he is waiting for you in Spellhold, Irenicus has his own narrative going on completely separate from your own. By going to the Underdark etc, you are essentially chasing Irenicus' narrative with your own. Even phrases such as "Enough, I haven't the time for this" reveal that Irenicus does not consider CHARNAME to be of any particular importance, so for CHARNAME to return in Suldanesselar is a great surprise.
If you attempt to trace it, you could actually play SoA from Irenicus' point of view. Starting from the assault & capture of CHARNAME, the only point in time when Irenicus doesn't have his own quests to complete is when he awaits you in Spellhold. Even in Hell Irenicus is completing trials much like those of CHARNAME's, not just standing around waiting to be a scary boss fight.
Nice post.
What neither of them could ever know is that charname can wade through any enemies just for the lulz.
They made no mistakes, it was unthinkable that charname would kill endless demons, ancient dragons or anything else (mellisan drawing on endless bhaal essence was toyed with).
Charname simply was unstoppable.
bodhi? She would have destroyed the shadow thieves etc
yaga shura? Immortal...almost
The demon that helm had bound and feared would get loose?
And many many more beyond belief powerful beings ALL rofledstomped by charname.
Face it, nothing could stand against charname...but how could they have known?
Had irenicus ascended charname would still have destroyed him
Irenicus has very very high wisdom.
Without any direct aid from another god? Probably not.
Charname stood a chance against Amelyssan exactly because she wasn't a goddess. And even then, charname couldn't kill her.
The same with Irenicus and Sarevok.
100% win.
The outcome ? She had to hide and draw power over and over and was stomped ez mode.
she like all other enemies of charname was beaten...big time. No matter what endless power they had, armies, tricks etc.
Amelyssan had much of the power of Bhaal's essence but she was no god.
Solar:"You are no god, priestess of Bhaal. You play with stolen energies that make you immortal, that give you great power... but that does not make you a god."
A mortal cannot kill a god without the aid of another god. That's pretty much a fact.