@karnor00 Broadly speaking, I'd agree with you. Especially with Watcher's Keep in the mix, and the higher XP Cap. Although I do remember Aerie seeming to be a really long way behind Anomen in my pre-ToB days. (Admittedly, this is balanced up by cool arcane-divine synergies...) You'll also have to wait much longer for your Holy Symbol.
They can, but it takes 3825000 xp to get to lv25 Cleric, so you'd need to have over 7.65M xp in order for a multi-class Cleric to get there, which many full parties will never see. But it certainly is possible, I've just tested it with Aerie.
The holy symbols aren't worth the hassle realy, unless ofc u are roleplaying it. For example when Viconia (single class cleric) got her Symbol in my game, she was already wielding Crom Faeyr .
@Arizael It's no hassle since u get it for free and without having to do anything. And two extra high level spells is pretty nice. The lv7 extra spell can be used for HLAs.
@Arizael It's no hassle since u get it for free and without having to do anything. And two extra high level spells is pretty nice. The lv7 extra spell can be used for HLAs.
True that. Forgot it since i was using the mod that makes HLA spells innate rather than 7th level.
I never understood why you would give crom Freyr, the highest damage weapon in the game for any non-half Orc, to viconia who only gets one attack per round. Then again when she got it for me the only str item I could give her was the 18 str mace from ribald because I wasn't yet in suldanesselar so it did help her carrying capacity a lot...
So much useful info in this thread. I'm happy for the feedback.
I just wanted to update my character and party.
I'm now Neutral Evil 8F/8C Dwarf dual wielding The Sleeper in main and Warhammer +1 in Off with -3 AC, 3 APR with 10 THACO main/12 Off. This all without using any buffs. I am an absolute machine in fights between fast attacks, high damage, great AC and saving throws.
I decided to form my group with Korgan, Dorn, Hexxat and about to grab Edwin. I was thinking of using Viconia but I don't see the point since I pretty much do all the healing we need. Plus, I'd rather keep my group as small as possible to earn as much XP as I can.
I'm having a wonderful time playing an evil group since I never really have. I was always afraid of losing reputation and being killed on sight everywhere I went and getting horrible prices in shops.
If you think I can improve on anything let me know, so far this has all been helpful.
@AnimusRex - Viconia would give you earlier access to level 6 & 7 spells... this is a good thing. It might sound odd, but healing isn't what clerics are best at!
Edit: Urgh, I used earlier and sooner in the same sentence... Hideous.
@AnimusRex - Viconia would give you earlier access to level 6 & 7 spells sooner... this is a good thing. It might sound odd, but healing isn't what clerics are best at!
Viconia isnt a bad choice (and fits the evil party theme), but I would recommend: Jaheria - Druids have some unique spells/abilities and she's good in melee. Imoen/Jan/Haer - A 2nd arcane caster would be nice
I don't want Jaheira in my party, nor Imoen. The evil things I would be doing would cause them to eventually leave. Plus, I'm not sure if it makes a difference being able to max XP in the end, but I'd also like to keep my party with 4-5 instead of 6 so I can get as much XP as possible.
I've been considering dropping Dorn at this point since his first quest to crash the wedding has been bugged for me. I like him, but I can't get into anymore rooms in the temple since I killed everyone already but hasn't progressed his quest. I have no idea how I can fix it besides starting over since I already saved my progress. I posted this in discussion but haven't received any replies.
I don't want Jaheira in my party, nor Imoen. The evil things I would be doing would cause them to eventually leave. Plus, I'm not sure if it makes a difference being able to max XP in the end, but I'd also like to keep my party with 4-5 instead of 6 so I can get as much XP as possible.
Imoen will never leave because of reputation. Neutral npcs will stay through almost anything (I think they leave at reputation 1?). If you don't want/need them and would prefer the extra xp that's fine too.
I don't want Jaheira in my party, nor Imoen. The evil things I would be doing would cause them to eventually leave. Plus, I'm not sure if it makes a difference being able to max XP in the end, but I'd also like to keep my party with 4-5 instead of 6 so I can get as much XP as possible.
Imoen will never leave because of reputation. Neutral npcs will stay through almost anything (I think they leave at reputation 1?). If you don't want/need them and would prefer the extra xp that's fine too.
Jaheira WILL leave though, when you do the first step of her Harper quest she'll just walk out on you and never come back if your reputation is low.
In my books, there are 3 great choices... The always decent and popular, dward multiclass. Higher constitution and short race, means even better saving throws. You loose romance and appearances (ewww)! Barely lagging behind him, is the Half-Orc multi. 19 to str and con makes it a real beast, but not as fearsome as the dwarf, because it is NOT a shortie, and doesn't get extra saving throws. Also, no romance (bleah)!
My favorite, is dual. 13 berserker - as high as it gets cleric. Ton of HP, grandmasteries and dual wield Warhammer and Flail weapon types, makes the damn thing a real beast! Also, you do not need memorize the cleric's more popular defensive spells, thanks to berserking! Looses the stat bonuses (not really, tomes in 1, tears and machine in 2), the extra saving throws, and the warrior HLAs. But gets romance, good looks and great kit.
If you consider a druid, by any chance, doing the same (13 berserker - as high as it gets druid) will create a terrific beast too. *The divine casters both BEG to be dualled from berserker!* Also, thanks to this kit, you can wear most items in the game... Unlike the other popular kit, the kensai (looses armor, warrior type helmets and bracers/gauntlets).
Grand mastery isn't that great if you dual before level 13, because you'll have the same attacks per round as a specialized fighter. Dualing at 13 is no fun, and in general I recommend against dualing for new players. Based on what you said I would recommend fighter/cleric so you can be a dwarf and bash things with hammers/flails.
Could someone please explain this to me?
I noticed that my Fighter 3 -> dual to Cleric (now 4) is not getting the APR granted by High Mastery in warhammer. I was thinking this might be a bug, but after reading the above, I'm not sure. Any advice would be welcome.
I never understood why you would give crom Freyr, the highest damage weapon in the game for any non-half Orc, to viconia who only gets one attack per round. Then again when she got it for me the only str item I could give her was the 18 str mace from ribald because I wasn't yet in suldanesselar so it did help her carrying capacity a lot...
Why would you ever give Crom Faeyr (STR 25) to a tank that should have a 19 STR already?
You're better off giving Crom Faeyr to a character who isn't as strong, so the bonus makes more of a difference.
I agree as well. Crom Faeyr is a great weapon, either used by itself or dual wielded. I would rather use it on a character with an inherently lower STR than somebody with a starting 19, that's all.
For instance, building up Mazzy to dual wield Crom Faeyr with Kundane in her offhand is awesome. While Anomen is a great fit for it as well, it isn't quite as meaningful since he can cast DUHM all day and get the same STR.
Er, High Mastery has the same apr as Specialization. Getting all the way to Grand Mastery gives an extra 1/2 apr on top of Specialization.
The point of wsiting for lvl 13 is that you get an extra 1/2 attack at this level.
Sorry. I'm an idiot. I misread the table...the benefits of specialization/mastery are NOT cumulative.
(That would be a pretty cool mod though: Specialization grants +1/2 attack, Mastery grants +1 attack, High Mastery grants +3/2 attacks, and Grand Mastery grants +2 attacks (or +5/2 for the "true grandmastery" folks). Cool...tremendously powerful...but cool)
Grandmastery and more focused cleric progression along with fighter kit abilities vs progressive thac0 build-up and fighter HLAs... besides racial bonuses really.
Personally I think dual classing works better for a couple reasons. First and foremost, clerics don't have to worry about low thac0 problems ever, and shortcomings from having lower thac0 later in the game due to not gaining any more fighter levels are outdone by the cleric buffs that adjust thac0. That means that with grandmastery, and the bonus attacks that come from those pips along with the fighter levels, means you can get your APR pretty high with your preferred cleric weapon(s) of choice, on top of the damage and to-hit bonuses.
The real missing points are the HLAs, specifically Greater Whirlwind, but that's compensated to an extent by a mage casting Improved Haste on you. This is also compensated by kit-based skills, though the only real fighter kit I can recommend would be Berserker, since the Kensai's kai ability is largely outdone by a single cleric spell, and the lack of armor is massive. And we don't mention Wizard Slayer for many reasons.
Even the downtime isn't horrible for a fighter ->cleric dual class, due to the fact that clerics can use all form of crushing weapons fighters can use, and they can equip the same heavy armors fighters use for the sake of protection while they cast support spells.
I mean, its a nice ability to have, but if you constantly fight undead that are too close to your level, you won't be able to turn them.
If turn undead is useful, then I think that would make me prefer a Fighter->Cleric to a Fighter/Cleric. A dualled character is going to reach much higher turn undead levels much sooner. However, you need to be quite a high level for it to be useful.
What sort of undead do you fight in IWD1? Powerful undead? Masses of weak skeletons and shadows?
It's been a while since I did IWD1 but iirc the undead are mainly in the early part of the game, aren't they? Some later in spots, but the more annoying enemies aren't undead I think...
It really has been literal years though, so I might just be remembering wrong.
As for Turn vis-a-vis dual/multi, that is also contingent on the game you're going with. In BG2 I'd absolutely dual (in most cases anyway), but in IWD1/BG1 a multi might be a better choice. Of course, those things are also contingent on a lot of other factors, group size, group composition, etc. etc.
Thanks! I actually just realized I posted this in the wrong forum, forgetting that this was the BG2 forum. But, it is still about Fighter Clerics!
Thanks for the responses guys, think I'll go with my original plan of a Fighter -> Cleric. Besides, it will be my first playthrough, so there will undoubtedly be some surprises for me, and perhaps it is better that way.
Comments
They can, but it takes 3825000 xp to get to lv25 Cleric, so you'd need to have over 7.65M xp in order for a multi-class Cleric to get there, which many full parties will never see. But it certainly is possible, I've just tested it with Aerie.
It's no hassle since u get it for free and without having to do anything. And two extra high level spells is pretty nice. The lv7 extra spell can be used for HLAs.
I just wanted to update my character and party.
I'm now Neutral Evil 8F/8C Dwarf dual wielding The Sleeper in main and Warhammer +1 in Off with -3 AC, 3 APR with 10 THACO main/12 Off. This all without using any buffs. I am an absolute machine in fights between fast attacks, high damage, great AC and saving throws.
I decided to form my group with Korgan, Dorn, Hexxat and about to grab Edwin. I was thinking of using Viconia but I don't see the point since I pretty much do all the healing we need. Plus, I'd rather keep my group as small as possible to earn as much XP as I can.
I'm having a wonderful time playing an evil group since I never really have. I was always afraid of losing reputation and being killed on sight everywhere I went and getting horrible prices in shops.
If you think I can improve on anything let me know, so far this has all been helpful.
Edit: Urgh, I used earlier and sooner in the same sentence... Hideous.
Jaheria - Druids have some unique spells/abilities and she's good in melee.
Imoen/Jan/Haer - A 2nd arcane caster would be nice
I've been considering dropping Dorn at this point since his first quest to crash the wedding has been bugged for me. I like him, but I can't get into anymore rooms in the temple since I killed everyone already but hasn't progressed his quest. I have no idea how I can fix it besides starting over since I already saved my progress. I posted this in discussion but haven't received any replies.
My favorite, is dual. 13 berserker - as high as it gets cleric. Ton of HP, grandmasteries and dual wield Warhammer and Flail weapon types, makes the damn thing a real beast! Also, you do not need memorize the cleric's more popular defensive spells, thanks to berserking! Looses the stat bonuses (not really, tomes in 1, tears and machine in 2), the extra saving throws, and the warrior HLAs. But gets romance, good looks and great kit.
If you consider a druid, by any chance, doing the same (13 berserker - as high as it gets druid) will create a terrific beast too. *The divine casters both BEG to be dualled from berserker!* Also, thanks to this kit, you can wear most items in the game... Unlike the other popular kit, the kensai (looses armor, warrior type helmets and bracers/gauntlets).
I noticed that my Fighter 3 -> dual to Cleric (now 4) is not getting the APR granted by High Mastery in warhammer. I was thinking this might be a bug, but after reading the above, I'm not sure. Any advice would be welcome.
The point of wsiting for lvl 13 is that you get an extra 1/2 attack at this level.
You're better off giving Crom Faeyr to a character who isn't as strong, so the bonus makes more of a difference.
I agree that the power output of CF as a main hand weapon with 9 APR seems to be somewhat underrated.
I would rather use it on a character with an inherently lower STR than somebody with a starting 19, that's all.
For instance, building up Mazzy to dual wield Crom Faeyr with Kundane in her offhand is awesome. While Anomen is a great fit for it as well, it isn't quite as meaningful since he can cast DUHM all day and get the same STR.
(That would be a pretty cool mod though: Specialization grants +1/2 attack, Mastery grants +1 attack, High Mastery grants +3/2 attacks, and Grand Mastery grants +2 attacks (or +5/2 for the "true grandmastery" folks). Cool...tremendously powerful...but cool)
Personally I think dual classing works better for a couple reasons. First and foremost, clerics don't have to worry about low thac0 problems ever, and shortcomings from having lower thac0 later in the game due to not gaining any more fighter levels are outdone by the cleric buffs that adjust thac0. That means that with grandmastery, and the bonus attacks that come from those pips along with the fighter levels, means you can get your APR pretty high with your preferred cleric weapon(s) of choice, on top of the damage and to-hit bonuses.
The real missing points are the HLAs, specifically Greater Whirlwind, but that's compensated to an extent by a mage casting Improved Haste on you. This is also compensated by kit-based skills, though the only real fighter kit I can recommend would be Berserker, since the Kensai's kai ability is largely outdone by a single cleric spell, and the lack of armor is massive. And we don't mention Wizard Slayer for many reasons.
Even the downtime isn't horrible for a fighter ->cleric dual class, due to the fact that clerics can use all form of crushing weapons fighters can use, and they can equip the same heavy armors fighters use for the sake of protection while they cast support spells.
I mean, its a nice ability to have, but if you constantly fight undead that are too close to your level, you won't be able to turn them.
If turn undead is useful, then I think that would make me prefer a Fighter->Cleric to a Fighter/Cleric. A dualled character is going to reach much higher turn undead levels much sooner. However, you need to be quite a high level for it to be useful.
What sort of undead do you fight in IWD1? Powerful undead? Masses of weak skeletons and shadows?
It really has been literal years though, so I might just be remembering wrong.
As for Turn vis-a-vis dual/multi, that is also contingent on the game you're going with. In BG2 I'd absolutely dual (in most cases anyway), but in IWD1/BG1 a multi might be a better choice. Of course, those things are also contingent on a lot of other factors, group size, group composition, etc. etc.
Thanks for the responses guys, think I'll go with my original plan of a Fighter -> Cleric. Besides, it will be my first playthrough, so there will undoubtedly be some surprises for me, and perhaps it is better that way.