Note that I'm playing with aVENGER's Wizard Slayer Rebalancing mod (available for both BGT/Tutu and EE), which is slightly more lenient as to item restrictions (anything specifically designed to protect against magic can be used by the WS). So far I've not used any such items, but I'll be very happy to don the Cloak of Balduran if I manage to acquire it. The mod also awards the WS with a Shatter Magic ability once every 8 levels. This ability allows the WS to hack through any spell protections during a three rounds, at the price of losing their innate magic resistance during that time. (Not sure though if it'll work against PfMW, or Mantle. I suppose not, because you need a successful hit.)
I have yet to face the games' strongest mages. But I've just had a testcase against Silke, where the Shatter Magic ability was pretty helpful. Of course if you're planning to stick to the vanilla WS kit, you'd have different experience.
@Blackraven, I think I remember aVENGER posting about his plans for that mod last year in a thread about the Wizard Slayer kit, glad to hear that he completed it.
I'll be interested to see if you experience any benefit from the cumulative10% chance of spell failure as your game progresses. I started a WS led party a year ago (EE unmodded) to test this out and it got moved to the back burner, still unresumed.
Yes, I think the aVENGER's Wizard Slayer is very well balanced. Obviously more powerful than the original kit, but not overpowered (until perhaps epic levels, when pretty much all classes and kits are uberpowerful demi-gods). The shatter magic ability is a great feat (though losing your magic resistance makes you vulnerable when using it). I've used it a few times already. It's an interesting challenge to find precisely those items that the WS can use, so that he doesn't look "half-naked" in the inventory screen. So far I haven't seen the cumulative spell failure penalty take effect, but I'm sure it will happen when I have to deal with higher level mages. (The only thing I'm not very enthusiastic about is that it's a very physical style of playing, point and click... but that has nothing to do with the mod, or even the kit in particular, it's inherent in playing a warrior class.)
Honestly having a character that has empty boxes in his inventory screen just bothers me for some reason. I don't know why. Except monks, who i kinda like to have nothing.
Even with the improved wizard slayer mod I installed I don't really feel a strong desire to try the kit out. I think the fact that his usefulness is very situational kinda limits my entertainment. I really enjoy micro-managing my PC a bit more than the rest of my party. If he is less effective in most situations I kinda get bored/frustrated with him.
@booinyoureyes, the (rebalanced) WS's usefulness isn't restricted to wizard slaying IMO. My current character is a beast. As a (physical) damage dealer or tank she must be inferior to other warrior classes/kits one could play but so far she's more than held her ground in even the tougher battles. Obviously she isn't as versatile as a fighter/mage, thief/mage or cleric/thief, but no singleclass warrior is.
Like you I fear I might get bored with the lack of micromanagement on my charname though. But that's something I'd have with any kind of warrior I think. I loved micromanaging my previous cleric/thief and before that my elven swashmage multi. I think those are my two favourite charnames.
And I also strongly dislike empty slots. Hell if possible my charname would wear a ring on every finger lol! That's why I like the mod. It'll be difficult, but in the end she'll have some neat gear/items...
@Blackraven yeah, totally agree. I actually am having a lot of fun with my cleric/ranger right now, and I can't wait to try a fighter/illusionist. I really enjoyed my blade (with the Rogue Rebalancing mod) because I love the micromanagement.
I actually started this thread because I was looking for suggestions for a warrior class that wasn't "just click things until they die". I think that is why I really enjoy paladins (though the roleplay certainly contributes more) and I was hoping to find another warrior class that provides a similar experience. Kensai seem to add a similar dynamic. I'm thinking of doing a kensai/mage, but all I hear is about how overpowered that character build is.
Cleric/Ranger is great, both physically strong and cool spells I also like the concept of priest who's at home in nature. I still have a Cleric/Ranger dualwielding flails with 98 stats (my highest ever), but never got past level 3 I think. Don't know why. The Blade must be good fun. Never played one, though I think (s)he must be quite similar to the elven swashmage I mentioned, in terms of both playstyle and roleplaying experience (dashing, charismatic swordsman).
As to warriors whose management involves more than point-click-kill, I think the Stalker is the most interesting kit out there, as you get a couple of more or less useful mage spells (haste, minor spell turning), stealth & backstabs, plus a limited number of priest spells like other rangers and paladins. To me paladins offer little more than other fighters, except perhaps the Inquisitor with his true sight and dispel magic abilities.
Kensai (9/13) -> Mage is considered by many to be the most powerful character. I don't know if that's true, but I can imagine it's one of the top 5 "uberbuilds". I can't be bothered really to try one though. First because it's one of the most played builds, and second because I'm not overly fond of the concept of a kensai in Candlekeep. But that's irrational I know. It's surely possible to develop a backstory for a Kensai, maybe (s)he got trained by a visiting master-kensai who saw potential in charname while practising with the guards. Either way, if I ever played one, I think I'd pick a different dual, maybe a druid or something. I'm by no means against "exotic" charnames. A while ago I found a portrait of a Maztican girl holding a protective amulet. This kind of inspired me to create an exotic charname, most likely some kind of priestess (guided by one of the deities of Faerun) or druid (shaman-style). Haven't started yet though.
@Blackraven haha, you and I are alike. The reason I never made a kensai was exactly the same as yours, and also the reason I never made a barbarian. I'm thinking of making him/her a normal fighter/mage in BG1 and then adding the kit to the multiclass in BG2 and just say "he learned how to channel his arcane powers into swordsmanship" like the Pathfinder version: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/kensai
My blade was actually a fun roleplaying experience. In my head he was an intensely motivated method actor who learned how to use swords for a role in a play he and Imoen wanted to put on in Candlekeep
The best part was that I installed one of those mods that make all the strongholds available. My character was so skilled an actor that he convinced the priests of Lathander that he was a wise cleric, the paladins of the Most Noble Order that he was a righteous LG knight in shining armor (I just kept yelling "For Helm!") and the mayor of Imnesvale that he was a gruff hunter. He was quite the roleplayer, lol.
That's an interesting concept, the Pathfinder one: in BG this would be something like a single class kensage no? Would make for a great mod kit by the way, the spellblade, arcane warrior or whatever you'd like to call it. Just as this mod idea I've had in mind for a long time, but lack the coding skills for: the achemist, who'd be able to brew different kinds of potions at will (so not randomly as conform the rogue HLA) once per day with an increase every couple of levels, e.g. at level 1 one create protective potion ability (pick between magic blocking, magic shielding, prot. from fire, invisibility etc), one create healing potion ability (pick between antidotes, healing potions, regen potion etc), one create buffing potion ability (strength potions, oil speed, invulnerability etc) and one create damaging potion ability (fire bombs like oil of firy burning, poisons, etc). Both the number of potions that can be brewed per day and their effect (e.g. duration, damage output, healing power etc) would increase with levelling up. Anyway, I got sidetracked here. Why wait till BG2 with kitting your F/M multi? The swordsmanship-enhancing arcane powers could as well have always been there?
I love Dwarven Defender. Sure they're pretty simple, but they're the best classic tanks you'll ever find. Sure you might miss having an 18 DEX, but that's easily offset by all their other great defensive bonuses. Their defensive stance is powerful, without being game-breaking, the +5 to all saves with an 18+ CON means godlike saves at lvl 17, (and excellent ones before that) and with a dwarf, why not go all the way and get a 19 CON for huge health bonuses? I've never played one to high levels, but I imagine they're pretty standard fighters, only hardier. And if you're worried about only being able to use axe and hammer exceptionally well, think of this. Axe of the Unyielding+Crom Faeyr. 25 strength, and you're using both your weapon proficiencies to their max. The class is fairly restrictive in how you'll build it, but the way you have to build it is as the hardiest little ball of dwarven fury. A nice alternative is to stick with shields in BG1 and then switch over to dual wielding in BG2. Even with two pips in S&S, you're still only using 13 pips total. You can get that by lvl 27. Or just charge ahead towards dual wield and have all your skills by lvl 21. Sorry for the wall of text.
I could see it being very useful for a cleric/mage (especially in the first game) since the AC bonus against missile damage can help prevent spell interruption.
It would definitely only be useful in BG1. I dunno, I like the idea of a dwarven DEFENDER using a shield. But dual wielding is definitely the best choice overall. If you want to pretend your dwarf is using an axe or hammer with two hands you could go with SWS, which is just as good as S&S, and in fact a little better. I like to imagine my dwarf begins as a very standard dwarven defender, and over time trains to use two weapons because it's more useful.
Using a shield from time to time makes a lot of sense for different characters. However, the benefits of S&S style are so small it's rarely worth putting pips in.
But seriously I was thinking of creating a Beast Master character. You cant use speed weapons, which sucks, but between Gnasher (main hand) and Blackblood it seems like you could be a decent fighter. Plus the druid spell you normally get for the first three levels are not the best typically so I think having someone usable would be a nice change of pace.
beast master's summons are great at low levels and the drawbacks are just flavour, wooden weapons/armor are weapon/armor types and type has nothing to do with it's enchancements (how is Club of Detonation+6 inferior to any metal weapon,or White Dragon armor inferior to metal armor?)
as for the Wizard Slayer,if you play him on SCS SoA+ToB you will reconsider,trust me, shutting down enemy spells AND special abilities in a single round is big deal,so is 100% magic resistance ( and I insist that Wizard Slayer is meant to be played with a shield and axe or hammer as proficiencies for the throwers which in combination with Whirlwind Attack can give 100% spell failure to any opponent in sight before he can even cast a spell,afterwards you do NOT focus the mage simply because he can't do anything, rather you leave him last for when he's protections have expired.)
I forgot to mention, archers are also great. Their THAC0 becomes insane very quickly. If you want to see a bit more about them and their play style, I actually have a thread going where I'm playing through the series with a solo archer. They're definitely a very fun class, though I can't say how effective they are past BG1, having never gotten there with one.
One of my most entertaining runs was with a Cavalier. He was incredible dual wielding with Purifier at the end and fighting alongside Anomen and Keldorn just felt so right. Talk about butt-kicking for goodness!
Runner up would be Stalker. A ranger that plays like a thief is pretty cool...
as for the Wizard Slayer,if you play him on SCS SoA+ToB you will reconsider,trust me, shutting down enemy spells AND special abilities in a single round is big deal,so is 100% magic resistance ( and I insist that Wizard Slayer is meant to be played with a shield and axe or hammer as proficiencies for the throwers which in combination with Whirlwind Attack can give 100% spell failure to any opponent in sight before he can even cast a spell,afterwards you do NOT focus the mage simply because he can't do anything, rather you leave him last for when he's protections have expired.)
Thanks this answers exactly what I was wondering. Shutting down a spellcaster in one round is what I figured should be possible. Why Sword and Shield style, though?
archer!! someone hate archer because of low arrow enchant. But gesen or firetooth has +4, +5 electric or fire arrow. So archer can attack enemy like any fighters.
Comments
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/30834/the-story-of-grynne-executioner-of-wizards/p1
Note that I'm playing with aVENGER's Wizard Slayer Rebalancing mod (available for both BGT/Tutu and EE), which is slightly more lenient as to item restrictions (anything specifically designed to protect against magic can be used by the WS). So far I've not used any such items, but I'll be very happy to don the Cloak of Balduran if I manage to acquire it. The mod also awards the WS with a Shatter Magic ability once every 8 levels. This ability allows the WS to hack through any spell protections during a three rounds, at the price of losing their innate magic resistance during that time. (Not sure though if it'll work against PfMW, or Mantle. I suppose not, because you need a successful hit.)
I have yet to face the games' strongest mages. But I've just had a testcase against Silke, where the Shatter Magic ability was pretty helpful. Of course if you're planning to stick to the vanilla WS kit, you'd have different experience.
I'll be interested to see if you experience any benefit from the cumulative10% chance of spell failure as your game progresses. I started a WS led party a year ago (EE unmodded) to test this out and it got moved to the back burner, still unresumed.
So far I haven't seen the cumulative spell failure penalty take effect, but I'm sure it will happen when I have to deal with higher level mages.
(The only thing I'm not very enthusiastic about is that it's a very physical style of playing, point and click... but that has nothing to do with the mod, or even the kit in particular, it's inherent in playing a warrior class.)
Even with the improved wizard slayer mod I installed I don't really feel a strong desire to try the kit out. I think the fact that his usefulness is very situational kinda limits my entertainment. I really enjoy micro-managing my PC a bit more than the rest of my party. If he is less effective in most situations I kinda get bored/frustrated with him.
Like you I fear I might get bored with the lack of micromanagement on my charname though. But that's something I'd have with any kind of warrior I think. I loved micromanaging my previous cleric/thief and before that my elven swashmage multi. I think those are my two favourite charnames.
And I also strongly dislike empty slots. Hell if possible my charname would wear a ring on every finger lol! That's why I like the mod. It'll be difficult, but in the end she'll have some neat gear/items...
I really enjoyed my blade (with the Rogue Rebalancing mod) because I love the micromanagement.
I actually started this thread because I was looking for suggestions for a warrior class that wasn't "just click things until they die". I think that is why I really enjoy paladins (though the roleplay certainly contributes more) and I was hoping to find another warrior class that provides a similar experience. Kensai seem to add a similar dynamic. I'm thinking of doing a kensai/mage, but all I hear is about how overpowered that character build is.
As to warriors whose management involves more than point-click-kill, I think the Stalker is the most interesting kit out there, as you get a couple of more or less useful mage spells (haste, minor spell turning), stealth & backstabs, plus a limited number of priest spells like other rangers and paladins.
To me paladins offer little more than other fighters, except perhaps the Inquisitor with his true sight and dispel magic abilities.
Kensai (9/13) -> Mage is considered by many to be the most powerful character. I don't know if that's true, but I can imagine it's one of the top 5 "uberbuilds". I can't be bothered really to try one though. First because it's one of the most played builds, and second because I'm not overly fond of the concept of a kensai in Candlekeep. But that's irrational I know. It's surely possible to develop a backstory for a Kensai, maybe (s)he got trained by a visiting master-kensai who saw potential in charname while practising with the guards. Either way, if I ever played one, I think I'd pick a different dual, maybe a druid or something.
I'm by no means against "exotic" charnames. A while ago I found a portrait of a Maztican girl holding a protective amulet. This kind of inspired me to create an exotic charname, most likely some kind of priestess (guided by one of the deities of Faerun) or druid (shaman-style). Haven't started yet though.
My blade was actually a fun roleplaying experience. In my head he was an intensely motivated method actor who learned how to use swords for a role in a play he and Imoen wanted to put on in Candlekeep
The best part was that I installed one of those mods that make all the strongholds available. My character was so skilled an actor that he convinced the priests of Lathander that he was a wise cleric, the paladins of the Most Noble Order that he was a righteous LG knight in shining armor (I just kept yelling "For Helm!") and the mayor of Imnesvale that he was a gruff hunter. He was quite the roleplayer, lol.
Just as this mod idea I've had in mind for a long time, but lack the coding skills for: the achemist, who'd be able to brew different kinds of potions at will (so not randomly as conform the rogue HLA) once per day with an increase every couple of levels, e.g. at level 1 one create protective potion ability (pick between magic blocking, magic shielding, prot. from fire, invisibility etc), one create healing potion ability (pick between antidotes, healing potions, regen potion etc), one create buffing potion ability (strength potions, oil speed, invulnerability etc) and one create damaging potion ability (fire bombs like oil of firy burning, poisons, etc). Both the number of potions that can be brewed per day and their effect (e.g. duration, damage output, healing power etc) would increase with levelling up.
Anyway, I got sidetracked here. Why wait till BG2 with kitting your F/M multi? The swordsmanship-enhancing arcane powers could as well have always been there?
Love your take on your blade btw! By Helm!
beast master's summons are great at low levels and the drawbacks are just flavour, wooden weapons/armor are weapon/armor types and type has nothing to do with it's enchancements (how is Club of Detonation+6 inferior to any metal weapon,or White Dragon armor inferior to metal armor?)
as for the Wizard Slayer,if you play him on SCS SoA+ToB you will reconsider,trust me, shutting down enemy spells AND special abilities in a single round is big deal,so is 100% magic resistance ( and I insist that Wizard Slayer is meant to be played with a shield and axe or hammer as proficiencies for the throwers which in combination with Whirlwind Attack can give 100% spell failure to any opponent in sight before he can even cast a spell,afterwards you do NOT focus the mage simply because he can't do anything, rather you leave him last for when he's protections have expired.)
Runner up would be Stalker. A ranger that plays like a thief is pretty cool...
But gesen or firetooth has +4, +5 electric or fire arrow. So archer can attack enemy like any fighters.
Fun n powerful bg1-tob~