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I find this "prices are higher the lower your reputation is" system kind of stupid...

KorlamaqKorlamaq Member Posts: 216
I mean really? Six people that radiate evil, armed to the teeth and most wanted in all of Amn enter your shop and you would dare to deny them your services? Or only sell items at ridiculous prices? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me to be honest... Isn't intimidation worth anything in this game? It should be the same modifier as a high reputation while charisma still applies as normal.
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  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    I think there's a mod that fixes this.
  • TwoWayFinesseTwoWayFinesse Member Posts: 128
    the BG2 tweaks mod does allow you to change this if you like. there's a link (to a lot of mods) in the first post of the mod section I think
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    Well, I completely disagree with the OP when it comes to places like Waukeen's Promenade, for the reasons that Heindrich mentioned. It's not like in most real world highly developed economies that respect rule of law being well-behaved does not pay off. One of the nice things about capitalism is that respected businessmen simply don't want associate with ruffians because it would hurt their own reputation, or create problems for themselves with the authorities.

    However for shops like the riff-raff in the Docks District, or Roger the Fence in the Temple Sewers or even the shop on the ground floor of the Shadow Thieves headquarters, I can't see why reputation would be so heavily considered in your dealings.

    I'm not sure how the game does the Underdark (haven't really played evil) but I feel like your reputation should mean NOTHING when you are under cover as a Drow, since they literally know nothing of "Veldrin" when you first arrive.
  • vangoatvangoat Member Posts: 212



    I'm not sure how the game does the Underdark (haven't really played evil) but I feel like your reputation should mean NOTHING when you are under cover as a Drow, since they literally know nothing of "Veldrin" when you first arrive.

    it's the exact same as the rest of the game, they rip you off.

    I agree with OP that this mechanic is silly, so when I get ripped off I go around burgling other merchants and selling their own gear back to them to get my money back.

  • SharShar Member Posts: 158

    Well, I completely disagree with the OP when it comes to places like Waukeen's Promenade, for the reasons that Heindrich mentioned. It's not like in most real world highly developed economies that respect rule of law being well-behaved does not pay off. One of the nice things about capitalism is that respected businessmen simply don't want associate with ruffians because it would hurt their own reputation, or create problems for themselves with the authorities.

    Not necessarily, cartel money were very important source of finance that kept some banks afloat during credit crunch in 2008. ( http://www.theguardian.com/global/2009/dec/13/drug-money-banks-saved-un-cfief-claims )

    I have no real problem with reputation though i do agree that the system is a bit simplistic.
  • SkaffenSkaffen Member Posts: 709
    Just enjoy being evil and rob them blind! Keep in mind that potions of master thievery stack - one of my favourite exploits:

    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/464850
  • NecomancerNecomancer Member Posts: 622
    vangoat said:



    I'm not sure how the game does the Underdark (haven't really played evil) but I feel like your reputation should mean NOTHING when you are under cover as a Drow, since they literally know nothing of "Veldrin" when you first arrive.

    it's the exact same as the rest of the game, they rip you off.

    I agree with OP that this mechanic is silly, so when I get ripped off I go around burgling other merchants and selling their own gear back to them to get my money back.

    As someone mentioned above this is also a game mechanic to make up for the fact evil parties can make a bigger profit. You kinda just demonstrated why right there.
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,072
    You see, in the absence of Waukeen since the Time of Troubles, the Lawful Good God of Justice Tyr has been friendly enough to take some of the whole "trade" and "merchant" thing on his shoulders. Since then all merchants are required to be connected to the KOST (Karmic Orderly Sales Tweaker) Network, which involves having a tiny celestial being behind the counter that tells the merchant, and only the merchant, if you've been good or bad and the prize you should pay in accordance. Then the merchant can pass on the Heavenly Mandated number knowing that is a True and Worthy cost weighed against your deeds. Of course, each celestial accountant is spiritually tied to it's individual merchant and they are the only ones who can perceive it in any way. Do don't even bother looking for it. Honestly. Just take us on our word. Would a man with a smile like this ever lie?
  • KorlamaqKorlamaq Member Posts: 216
    I'd understand if it would try to balance it out a bit but when my reputation is at its lowest point the prices are completely insane...
    i also think that reputation shouldnt be that big of a deal and charisma a bigger one
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    edited February 2014
    Shar said:

    Well, I completely disagree with the OP when it comes to places like Waukeen's Promenade, for the reasons that Heindrich mentioned. It's not like in most real world highly developed economies that respect rule of law being well-behaved does not pay off. One of the nice things about capitalism is that respected businessmen simply don't want associate with ruffians because it would hurt their own reputation, or create problems for themselves with the authorities.

    Not necessarily, cartel money were very important source of finance that kept some banks afloat during credit crunch in 2008. ( http://www.theguardian.com/global/2009/dec/13/drug-money-banks-saved-un-cfief-claims )

    I have no real problem with reputation though i do agree that the system is a bit simplistic.
    @Shar a very interesting read, but I'm not so sure applies to what I was describing.
    (I'll put this in a spoiler tag to avoid derailing the thread)

    -For one, it does not appear, from my internet search, that these allegations (which, I should note, did not mention any specific banks) ever amounted to anything.
    -It is important to also note that the evidence came "Britain, Switzerland, Italy and the US". I can't say much about Italy, but the US, Britain and Switzerland are the three nations that are known for having among the strongest appreciation for the rule of law in all the world. If anything, the fact that this apparently worldwide occurrence was discovered in such nations proves my point about developed economies with proper legal systems.
    -Also it is important to distinguish between the financial sector and the general business environment (especially when talking about inter-bank loans as this article is). In fact, considering the role of central banks in the past century, modern banking seems to be the one area of the economy in the US (and that of most developed economies) that is decidedly *not* capitalistic.
    -Your typical businessman (such as Ribald!!!! lol) works in a far more open environment than the financial behemoths, in which customers are far more informed about the nature of their transactions (one of the big problems that led to the crash was the general public's lack of understanding of how the financial sector worked) and wrongdoing is more easily prosecuted.
    -The state of a panicked economy during a financial crisis (like in 2008) is not very indicative of general trends. There is a reason the crime rises during recessions.
  • SilverstarSilverstar Member Posts: 2,207
    Heindrich said:

    I can't remember the exactly shops in question, but I remember that there's a few questionable institutions that are reversed, with high prices for high reputation, and vice versa.

    Not sure about the first game, but in BGII all the shady street vendors in Athkatla (and thus probably other "evil" shops as well) seem to work this way. Noticed it on an experimental Blackguard that had just picked up Viconia and thus had a rep of 7. Prices were really good but started getting worse when rep climbed back up to 9+.
  • SharShar Member Posts: 158

    Shar said:



    @Shar a very interesting read, but I'm not so sure applies to what I was describing.
    (I'll put this in a spoiler tag to avoid derailing the thread)

    -For one, it does not appear, from my internet search, that these allegations (which, I should note, did not mention any specific banks) ever amounted to anything.
    -It is important to also note that the evidence came "Britain, Switzerland, Italy and the US". I can't say much about Italy, but the US, Britain and Switzerland are the three nations that are known for having among the strongest appreciation for the rule of law in all the world. If anything, the fact that this apparently worldwide occurrence was discovered in such nations proves my point about developed economies with proper legal systems.
    -Also it is important to distinguish between the financial sector and the general business environment (especially when talking about inter-bank loans as this article is). In fact, considering the role of central banks in the past century, modern banking seems to be the one area of the economy in the US (and that of most developed economies) that is decidedly *not* capitalistic.
    -Your typical businessman (such as Ribald!!!! lol) works in a far more open environment than the financial behemoths, in which customers are far more informed about the nature of their transactions (one of the big problems that led to the crash was the general public's lack of understanding of how the financial sector worked) and wrongdoing is more easily prosecuted.
    -The state of a panicked economy during a financial crisis (like in 2008) is not very indicative of general trends. There is a reason the crime rises during recessions.

    1.
    -Just some articles to illustrate my point.
    ( http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/gangster-bankers-too-big-to-jail-20130214?page=3 )
    ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21840052 )
    Nugan Hand Bank is another good example of a smaller merchant bank dealing with organized crime. There are precedents.
    2.
    -A lot of "settlements" are concluded with US government (developed country).
    3.
    Agreed. Its some sort of Orwelian neo-capitalistic system.
    4.
    I was merely trying to illustrate a point where "legitimate businessmen" (Ribalds of that world) would be willing to deal with dubious individuals and organisations. I know the game economic system if broken but if you could estimate the asset value (fixed and current) of Ribalds establishment he would likely be in top 100 wealthiest people in Athkatla.
    5.
    I do not actually know how that relates to this conversation but financial meltdowns are rather common even cyclical. In the 20th century we had 15 large crises that affected world markets that about every 6 years.


  • moody_magemoody_mage Member Posts: 2,054
    Korlamaq said:

    I mean really? Six people that radiate evil, armed to the teeth and most wanted in all of Amn enter your shop and you would dare to deny them your services? Or only sell items at ridiculous prices? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me to be honest... Isn't intimidation worth anything in this game? It should be the same modifier as a high reputation while charisma still applies as normal.

    Of course you are going to say that, you're that Chaotic Evil dude from the other topic...
  • GKL206GKL206 Member Posts: 75
    edited February 2014
    It's just a crude way to balance out the massive profits evil players can make from wholesale burglary and pickpocketing, isn't it? Though what's really morally wrong is to pretend to be Lawful Good for the starting bonuses then steal like mad and reload whenever you're caught. Really a Lawful Good character should take a bigger reputation hit for those acts than other characters.
  • RewolfRewolf Member Posts: 102
    You already have the advantage as an evil party because you can steal/kill/loot more than a good aligned party is able to without penalties. I do find that charisma should be more important to determine how high a price is (since charisma can also be intimidation indeed) with an extra bonus for good reputation, but then an evil party would still have an advantage over good parties since it's easier to have a good Charisma then Good Reputation.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    I don't buy the argument that "The Law" is somehow going to protect you, not in a fantasy world and certainly not in real life. If you're a storekeeper and someone comes into your store, holds a gun to your face and threatens to shoot you unless you give them a $.5 discount on toilet paper, how exactly is the law going to protect you? Are you really going to deny them service?
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164

    I don't buy the argument that "The Law" is somehow going to protect you, not in a fantasy world and certainly not in real life. If you're a storekeeper and someone comes into your store, holds a gun to your face and threatens to shoot you unless you give them a $.5 discount on toilet paper, how exactly is the law going to protect you? Are you really going to deny them service?

    Depends on the place. Waukeen's Promenade, Trademeet and even the Copper Coronet have a lot of security, with the authorities within reach.

    I agree with some of this statement, but it really depends on the shop in question

    @shar interesting response, and I agree with much of what you said. The one thing I'd dispute is that financial metltdowns are cyclical. The business cycle is not the same thing as a massive recession as seen in 2008. There are always ups and downs, but that was an extreme occurrence. A normal business cycle does not involve the collapse of the entire financial sector, or else we would not be anywhere near as advanced as we are today! haha
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    Skaffen said:

    Just enjoy being evil and rob them blind! Keep in mind that potions of master thievery stack - one of my favourite exploits:

    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/464850

    Really, he best is when you make the honest purchase a bottle of Master Thievery... only to consume it and rob the rest of the shopkeepers stock blind!
    As I've said before: worst. business model. ever.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455

    I don't buy the argument that "The Law" is somehow going to protect you, not in a fantasy world and certainly not in real life. If you're a storekeeper and someone comes into your store, holds a gun to your face and threatens to shoot you unless you give them a $.5 discount on toilet paper, how exactly is the law going to protect you? Are you really going to deny them service?

    Depends on the place. Waukeen's Promenade, Trademeet and even the Copper Coronet have a lot of security, with the authorities within reach.

    I agree with some of this statement, but it really depends on the shop in question

    @shar interesting response, and I agree with much of what you said. The one thing I'd dispute is that financial metltdowns are cyclical. The business cycle is not the same thing as a massive recession as seen in 2008. There are always ups and downs, but that was an extreme occurrence. A normal business cycle does not involve the collapse of the entire financial sector, or else we would not be anywhere near as advanced as we are today! haha
    That doesn't make any sense. Even if there was a police officer standing right next to you, it's unlikely they could be able to save your life at that point.
  • ZaknafeinBaenreZaknafeinBaenre Member Posts: 349
    It's just another way the game is trying to influence us to be good. When I consider the big picture, I appreciate it.

    This was a game made with limitless possibilities. When before did you have such freedom? You couldn't attack and kill Yoshi in Super Mario if you wanted to. I mean, you can chop Ribald Barterman to bits if you really want to. To discourage people from taking such a course, the game came with a multitude of ways to keep people acting generally sane and normal. The manipulation on the part of the creators was thorough and effective, and I highly doubt any of you go through baldur's gate slaughtering everything or everyone you see. You might say "well that has nothing to do with paying more at the store for being evil."

    But actually it does.
  • CalmarCalmar Member Posts: 688
    The people I could defeat in real life don't kiss my boots either, and neither do I crawl before those stronger than me. That's not how society works.
  • SharShar Member Posts: 158
    edited February 2014

    Yeah i understand your skepticism but it happens often. It sort of goes like this good times flow economic growth continues>government eases regulations>wise guys use this easing to pretty terrible means. Before 2008 there was Enron in about 2000, its collapse created energy market crisis. At the start of previous century General Electric created absolutely abysmal ripples in the market that lead to regulations toughening which to our surprise were eased later when economy was strong again.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164

    I don't buy the argument that "The Law" is somehow going to protect you, not in a fantasy world and certainly not in real life. If you're a storekeeper and someone comes into your store, holds a gun to your face and threatens to shoot you unless you give them a $.5 discount on toilet paper, how exactly is the law going to protect you? Are you really going to deny them service?

    Depends on the place. Waukeen's Promenade, Trademeet and even the Copper Coronet have a lot of security, with the authorities within reach.

    I agree with some of this statement, but it really depends on the shop in question

    @shar interesting response, and I agree with much of what you said. The one thing I'd dispute is that financial metltdowns are cyclical. The business cycle is not the same thing as a massive recession as seen in 2008. There are always ups and downs, but that was an extreme occurrence. A normal business cycle does not involve the collapse of the entire financial sector, or else we would not be anywhere near as advanced as we are today! haha
    That doesn't make any sense. Even if there was a police officer standing right next to you, it's unlikely they could be able to save your life at that point.
    I think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. It's not just that the shopkeeper (like Ribald for example) has their life in peril. It is the huge disincentive that if you do indeed hurt him, he knows that not only the guard next to him but the dozens of guards outside in Waukeen's promenade would also come down on you. There is a reason people stick up gas stations in remote locations, and not say, a cafe in the middle of Time Square.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    @shar regulation and criminal behavior are two entirely different things, but are often confused. Money laundering has always been illegal. Politicians like to cite things like money laundering or Bernie Maddoff as reasons for why you need something like Glass-Steagall, yet in reality one has nothing to do with the others.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    @booinyoureyes But would he bet his life on that?
  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 680
    At the end of the day the reputation system in BG is a very crude system and if we try and look too closely at it there are a lot of things that dont work.

    In BG terms, having a 1 reputation means you will have to slaughter a unit of guards when you enter town. But that's the only consequence as far as BG goes. But if we wanted to be more realistic then the consequences of this would be much more serious - no government could let this kind of behaviour go unpunished - you would end up with every member of the city guard and army coming after you.

    And even if you were somehow powerful enough to kill an entire army, then all the other governments in the region would take notice and have to react to it. Eventually you would come up against someone big and bad enough to take you down.

    So at the end of the day, higher shop prices seems a small price to pay compared to a more realistic penalty for low reputation.
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